Genesis 1, was god himself the us and our

[mikeboll64]

Gene, I can't understand your post. Are you saying that after Jesus was baptised at the Jordan he became “greater than John”?

mike

[Lightenup]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 22 2010,19:57)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 22 2010,11:04) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 22 2010,03:01) The reason John the Baptiste was not greater then Jesus was because John did not have the full anointing of GOD Spirit placed on HIM as Jesus did, and He was not the one called to the glory of being the first born from among Men to be born into the kingdom of GOD Jesus was given that calling before he ever came into existence the first of MANY Brothers. The kingdom of GOD really did not start until the outpouring of Gods Spirit on On mankind in a (general sense) at the day of Pentecost as Peter explained. Okay Gene, If you know this, then surely your Lord Jesus knew this also, right?  So why then did he say what he did about John the Baptist? mike MIke………Are you saying  you can't figure that out, there truly was no greater then John born (FROM) women, and that included Jesus himself also,  until he received the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD into Him at the Jordan river, and became the ONLY Begotten SON of GOD at that time.  And truly the least (IN) the Kingdom of GOD is  Greater then John was when he was alive on earth because they are SONS of GOD,  and at the time Jesus said that, Jesus was the only one begotten from among men into the Kingdom of GOD, AT THAT TIME.  At Pentecost that changes and many were called and chosen ever sense to be (IN the Kingdom of GOD and thee will all be greater then John the baptist was when he was on earth.  Mike i think you simply like to argue and it is not about truth for you but simply to find something to argue about. IMO

Gene,
You said:

Quote

…there truly was no greater then John born (FROM) women, and that included Jesus himself also…

But what did John say about Jesus:

Matt 3:13-15
Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him.
14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?”
15 But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he permitted Him.
NASU

John 1:15
15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'”
NASU

John said to Jesus, even BEFORE he baptized Jesus, that Jesus should be the one baptizing him. I believe it is clear in John's mind which one was greater…that was Jesus even before Jesus' baptism. What do you think?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 23 2010,11:55)

3 “Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the Lord of hosts.

Hi Kathi,

I just went through a similar situation with Keith in the pre-existent thread.  We were talking about the OT scripture saying “GOD” would be a stumbling stone.  But both Paul and Peter change the words a little to make it say “God SENT” a stumbling stone.

This is the same.  Malachi has the pronoun “ME” in verse one.  But Matthew changes it to “YOU” to fit in with Jesus.  NETNotes says:

The quotation is primarily from Mal 3:1 with pronouns from Exod 23:20. Here is the forerunner who points the way to the arrival of God’s salvation. His job is to prepare and guide the people, as the cloud did for Israel in the desert.

I don't know why the NT writers changed the OT scriptures like this, but one thing is clear about it – they were making sure no one thought Jesus WAS God Almighty by doing it.  

Besides, Jesus doesn't have a temple, so it can't be “HIS temple”, right?  Jesus even mentions the “temple of MY GOD” in Rev 3:12.  So this OT scripture apparently speaks of Jesus being Jehovah's messenger.  And it says Jehovah will suddenly come to HIS temple, and Jesus, in whom we delight is also coming.  It might refer to Jesus' second coming and the day God comes from his dwelling to incur His wrath on mankind. (Micah 1:3, Isaiah 26:21, Rev 21:3)

Malachi 3 goes on to say about this coming:

2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

5 “So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive the foreigners among you of justice, but do not fear me,” says the LORD Almighty.

That sounds alot like Isaiah 26:21 to me.  Maybe Malachi was about Jesus being Jehovah's messenger, preparing the way for Him, and Matthew applied it to John preparing the way for Jesus.  At any rate, the fact that Matthew changed “ME” to “YOU” and the fact that Jesus doesn't have a temple should be enough to discourage you from trying to make it into a “Jesus is God” scripture.  

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 23 2010,12:59)

John said to Jesus, even BEFORE he baptized Jesus, that Jesus should be the one baptizing him. I believe it is clear in John's mind which one was greater…that was Jesus even before Jesus' baptism.

Not only that, but Jesus said this about John AFTER he was baptised. That's why I was trying to clarify what Gene was claiming.

So Gene, if John was the greatest UNTIL JESUS WAS BAPTISED, then why did Jesus say this about John AFTER HE WAS BAPTISED?

mike

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 21 2010,00:30)

Hi Gene, You call it conjecture so that means that it could mean this or that.  Are you open to the possibility?  You will only see something if you are open to the possibility and with an honest and willing heart ask God to show you. Remember, Jesus was not out to toot his own horn.  How many times did Jesus tell others not to tell anyone of some spectacular thing that they heard or saw about Him.  All scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit, not just Jesus' words Gene, and we have plenty of verses that speak of Jesus' involvement in creation.  The Holy Spirit testifies about Jesus.   I have thought about why some believe in Jesus but that He was only a man and wondered about the progressiveness of faith.  As faith increases, Jesus and who He is increases.   Remember that Jesus said: “Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Matt: 11:11 NASB Wouldn't that make John the Baptist be the example to follow over Jesus if Jesus was just a man? Also, God's glory that He will not give to another has Jesus as the radiance of that glory.  Think about that.

Did you know Kathi that Jesus was not part of Hebrews 11 examples of Faithful servants of God?
Should this indicate something?

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 23 2010,20:27)

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 23 2010,12:59) John said to Jesus, even BEFORE he baptized Jesus, that Jesus should be the one baptizing him.   I believe it is clear in John's mind which one was greater…that was Jesus even before Jesus' baptism. Not only that, but Jesus said this about John AFTER he was baptised.  That's why I was trying to clarify what Gene was claiming. So Gene, if John was the greatest UNTIL JESUS WAS BAPTISED, then why did Jesus say this about John AFTER HE WAS BAPTISED? mike

Mike

John was from the earth and so Jesus compered all who ever live he was the greatest,

but Jesus is not included because he is from above ,send by God his father ,and that is exactly what John says,to his disciples the one who comes after me is greater than me.

why because he was before me ,and we know John was born before Christ on earth that is .

with John the baptist being the greatest on earth and beside him the greatest in heaven beside God.

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 22 2010,21:24)

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 23 2010,11:55) 3 “Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the Lord of hosts. Hi Kathi, I just went through a similar situation with Keith in the pre-existent thread.  We were talking about the OT scripture saying “GOD” would be a stumbling stone.  But both Paul and Peter change the words a little to make it say “God SENT” a stumbling stone. This is the same.  Malachi has the pronoun “ME” in verse one.  But Matthew changes it to “YOU” to fit in with Jesus.  NETNotes says: The quotation is primarily from Mal 3:1 with pronouns from Exod 23:20. Here is the forerunner who points the way to the arrival of God’s salvation. His job is to prepare and guide the people, as the cloud did for Israel in the desert. I don't know why the NT writers changed the OT scriptures like this, but one thing is clear about it – they were making sure no one thought Jesus WAS God Almighty by doing it.   Besides, Jesus doesn't have a temple, so it can't be “HIS temple”, right?  Jesus even mentions the “temple of MY GOD” in Rev 3:12.  So this OT scripture apparently speaks of Jesus being Jehovah's messenger.  And it says Jehovah will suddenly come to HIS temple, and Jesus, in whom we delight is also coming.  It might refer to Jesus' second coming and the day God comes from his dwelling to incur His wrath on mankind. (Micah 1:3, Isaiah 26:21, Rev 21:3) Malachi 3 goes on to say about this coming: 2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. 5 “So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive the foreigners among you of justice, but do not fear me,” says the LORD Almighty. That sounds alot like Isaiah 26:21 to me.  Maybe Malachi was about Jesus being Jehovah's messenger, preparing the way for Him, and Matthew applied it to John preparing the way for Jesus.  At any rate, the fact that Matthew changed “ME” to “YOU” and the fact that Jesus doesn't have a temple should be enough to discourage you from trying to make it into a “Jesus is God” scripture.   peace and love, mike

Mike,
Would you please supply the recipient of the pronouns to Malachi 3:1-3 like I asked Kerwin.  I am having trouble following you.  Also, the Son does have a temple:

19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21But he spake of the temple of his body.

I'm not sure the temple of His body is what is being referred to in Mal 1, but maybe.

[Lightenup]

Hi Dennison,
you said:

Quote

Did you know Kathi that Jesus was not part of Hebrews 11 examples of Faithful servants of God? Should this indicate something?

Right, Jesus wasn't a man of the OT which is who the list included. I'm not sure what your point is here.

[terraricca]

Mike

Mal 3:1 “See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me.THIS IS jOHN THE BAPTIST.

Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will comeTHIS IS JESUS COMING TO HIS BAPTISME TO DO THE WORK OF HIS FATHER,THE TEMPLE IS;;ARE; THE HEAD JESUS,THE STONES HIS DISCIPLES
SO THIS SCRIPTURE IS TRUE.JESUS IS ALSO THE MESSENGER OT THE NEW COVENANT BUT HE WAS THE PROMIS OF THE OLD COVENANT.

,” says the LORD Almighty.
Mal 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. YES HE REFINE THE WORD HE MADE SPIRITUAL AND HAVE TO BE REBORN

Mal 3:3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness,YES THIS IS WHAT CHRIST DID IN DEED ALL HIS DICIPLES WERE MAKING RIGHTEOUS OFFERINGS TO GOD.

THIS SCRIPTURES HAVE ACCOMPLISHED 100% ALMOST TO THE LETTER.

pierre

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 22 2010,19:55)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 21 2010,23:06) Kathy and Mike Boll, You miss the secound part of Matthew 11:11 since those that are in the kingdom of heaven are also born of woman.   I believe he was speaking of the first birth v the second birth as John did not experience the second birth which is part of the new covenant that was not yet sealed by Jesus' blood. Jesus did know that John was not the Messiah since he spoke of himself being such as it is only through Jesus that that God is in those that believe. John the Baptist was under the covenant put in place by Mosses and preached that covenant.  Jesus preached the good news of the comming of the new covenant. Hi Kerwin, Interesting that you bring up this: Quote Jesus preached the good news of the comming of the new covenant. Now read Malachi 3:1-3 which Matthew 11:11 refers to: Mal 3:1-3 3 “Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the Lord of hosts. 2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3 “He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the Lord offerings in righteousness. NASU Would you mind supplying who you think the pronouns that I have bolded, refer to?  Just put in parenthesis or in a different color the person you believe the pronoun is meaning after the pronoun itself. Thanks!

Hi Kerwin and Mike,
Would you mind supplying the names that the pronouns refer to in Malachi 3:1-3 in the above quote…nothing else, just the names or persons that you think they refer to?

Thanks!

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 23 2010,14:20)

Mike John was from the earth and so Jesus compered all who ever live he was the greatest, but Jesus is not included because he is from above ,send by God his father ,and that is exactly what John says,to his disciples the one who comes after me is greater than me.

Yes, I know.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 23 2010,14:28)

Mike, Would you please supply the recipient of the pronouns to Malachi 3:1-3 like I asked Kerwin.  I am having trouble following you.

Hi Kathi,

I summed up what I think the scripture might be saying here:

Quote

So this OT scripture apparently speaks of Jesus being Jehovah's messenger.  And it says Jehovah will suddenly come to HIS temple, and Jesus, in whom we delight is also coming.  It might refer to Jesus' second coming and the day God comes from his dwelling to incur His wrath on mankind. (Micah 1:3, Isaiah 26:21, Rev 21:3) Maybe Malachi was talking about Jesus being Jehovah's messenger, preparing the way for Him, and Matthew applied it to John preparing the way for Jesus.

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 23 2010,14:28)

Also, the Son does have a temple: 19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21But he spake of the temple of his body.

That is saying Jesus' body is the temple OF HIS GOD, just like Paul says our bodies are.  And it was GOD'S TEMPLE that Jesus was talking about being destroyed, not his own.  Scripture never mentions Jesus having his own temple where one might come to worship and offer sacrifices to him.  But his own body, like ours, is now a temple to his God.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 23 2010,15:26)

Mike Mal 3:1 “See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me.THIS IS jOHN THE BAPTIST.

Pierre,

If your understanding is correct, then Jesus IS YHVH like Kathi says. Because it was YHVH who was speaking about sending his messenger to prepare HIS way.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 25 2010,04:33)

Mal 3:1-3 3 “Behold, 1.  I am going to send 2.  My messenger, and he will clear the way before 3.  Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to 4.  His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, 5.  He is coming,” says the Lord of hosts. 2 “But who can endure the day of 6.  His coming? And who can stand when 7.  He appears? For 8.  He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3 “9.  He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and 10.  He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the Lord offerings in righteousness. NASU

Hi Kathi,

1.  YHVH
2.  YHVH
3.  YHVH
4.  YHVH
5.   Jesus
6.  YHVH
7.  YHVH
8.  YHVH
9.  YHVH
10. YHVH

[terraricca]

Mike

Mal 3:1-3
3 “Behold, 1. I am going to send 2. My messenger, and he will clear the way before 3. Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to 4. His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, 5. He is coming,” says the Lord of hosts.
2 “But who can endure the day of 6. His coming? And who can stand when 7. He appears? For 8. He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.
3 “9. He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and 10. He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the Lord offerings in righteousness.
NASU

Hi Kathi,

1. YHVH my view;same

2. YHVH my view ;God the messenger John the baptist
3. YHVH my view ;God the lord Jesus

4. YHVH my view ;God the messenger Jesus
5. Jesus my view ;Jesus ;the Lord of Host =God
6. YHVH my view ;Jesus
7. YHVH my view ;Jesus
8. YHVH my view ;Jesus
9. YHVH my view ;Jesus
10. YHVH my view ;Jesus

this is the way I understand it from scriptures.

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 25 2010,13:46)

this is the way I understand it from scriptures.

Are you sure, Pierre? I get the feeling Kathi is “setting us up” with this questioning!

peace on earth to men of goodwill,
mike

[Baker]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2010,04:07)

Georg………I am not trying to confuse anyone.  Your believe Spirit (just means) “invisible” is in error , spirit is far more then just meaning invisible. Spirit is invisible though that is true, Just as thoughts are invisible but yet thought drive our whole being . So they are FAR MORE THE (JUST) invisible things which you call BEINGS, When in fact SPIRIT is not a BEING , but what is (IN) Beings . George i am not the one saying There (ARE) seven SPIRIT of the LIVING GOD, scripture say that, you simply do not believe what it is saying without changing it to meet you preconceived religious ideas. Here I will Quote the scripture that say that OK, so you wont be confused any longer. Rev 5:6 And i beheld, and Lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood an Lamb as it had been slain, (HAVING) seven horns (powers) and seven eyes, (now notice George it is not me saying this but scripture) “WHICH (ARE) THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD, sent forth into all the earth. Now Georg am i the one saying that or was it scripture saying that?.  I am sorry you can't understand that but to accuse me of trying to confuse people because i believe what it said in a false accusation by you.   You probably do not believe GOD was Truly (IN) Jesus either right. Your idea of what Spirit  is the same as most all religion taught by the MYSTERY RELIGIONS OF THE WORLD. That may be why it seem confusing to you Georg. IMO peace and love to you and Irene………………….gene

Gene

Do you realize how you pick and choose?
If you believe that this scripture is telling you God has “seven” spirits, than you must also believe that Jesus is a “lamb”. And, it is the “lamb” (Jesus) that has seven horns, and seven eyes.
Now Gene, am I the one saying that or is it scripture saying that?

You tried to make “spirit” something else besides “invisible”, and you failed.
If you don't believe there are angels, than you deny the word of God, because the Bible says so.
So what are angels, if not invisible beings?
What are devils, if not invisible fallen angels?
I did not say, Satan is the god of this world, Paul did.
The word “god” simply means a “mighty one”.

Psa 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

But only the “Father” is the ALMIGHTY God.
You see how hard you're trying to define the word “spirit”, but in the end you have to admit, it means “invisible”, plain and simple; but you don't like “simple”, you call it “preconceived religious ideas”.
NO, I stand by what I said, you are confusing people more by the way you try to explain things; I bet you speak in tongues too, right?

Georg

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 25 2010,22:11)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 25 2010,13:46) this is the way I understand it from scriptures. Are you sure, Pierre?  I get the feeling Kathi is “setting us up” with this questioning!   peace on earth to men of goodwill, mike

Mike

it is 2 am but yes I think i am right ,let see

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Thanks Mike and Pierre! Mike I think you are afrrrrrraid to look at it in light of the NT. I want to look at some commentaries regarding this verse. This could be interesting!

I'm waiting for Kerwin's input on this.

[terraricca]

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 26 2010,00:41)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2010,04:07) Georg………I am not trying to confuse anyone.  Your believe Spirit (just means) “invisible” is in error , spirit is far more then just meaning invisible. Spirit is invisible though that is true, Just as thoughts are invisible but yet thought drive our whole being . So they are FAR MORE THE (JUST) invisible things which you call BEINGS, When in fact SPIRIT is not a BEING , but what is (IN) Beings . George i am not the one saying There (ARE) seven SPIRIT of the LIVING GOD, scripture say that, you simply do not believe what it is saying without changing it to meet you preconceived religious ideas. Here I will Quote the scripture that say that OK, so you wont be confused any longer. Rev 5:6 And i beheld, and Lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood an Lamb as it had been slain, (HAVING) seven horns (powers) and seven eyes, (now notice George it is not me saying this but scripture) “WHICH (ARE) THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD, sent forth into all the earth. Now Georg am i the one saying that or was it scripture saying that?.  I am sorry you can't understand that but to accuse me of trying to confuse people because i believe what it said in a false accusation by you.   You probably do not believe GOD was Truly (IN) Jesus either right. Your idea of what Spirit  is the same as most all religion taught by the MYSTERY RELIGIONS OF THE WORLD. That may be why it seem confusing to you Georg. IMO peace and love to you and Irene………………….gene Gene Do you realize how you pick and choose? If you believe that this scripture is telling you God has “seven” spirits, than you must also believe that Jesus is a “lamb”. And, it is the “lamb” (Jesus) that has seven horns, and seven eyes. Now Gene, am I the one saying that or is it scripture saying that? You tried to make “spirit” something else besides “invisible”, and you failed. If you don't believe there are angels, than you deny the word of God, because the Bible says so. So what are angels, if not invisible beings? What are devils, if not invisible fallen angels? I did not say, Satan is the god of this world, Paul did. The word “god” simply means a “mighty one”. Psa 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.   Psa 82:6   I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.   But only the “Father” is the ALMIGHTY God. You see how hard you're trying to define the word “spirit”, but in the end you have to admit, it means “invisible”, plain and simple; but you don't like “simple”, you call it “preconceived religious ideas”. NO, I stand by what I said, you are confusing people more by the way you try to explain things; I bet you speak in tongues too, right? Georg

Mike and Georg

spirit mean invisible ,but could also mean the will or the idea

what also is invisible,! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”from revelation,here what does spirit means ??

it is not only invisible in a symple way but there is a purpose to it, so if we are 2 or 3 in harmony with Gods word and so encourage each other ,would this not mean that at that moment we have the spirit of God ?

so many spirits but not all the same. but with the holy spirit we will understand

Pierre

[Author]

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