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Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 12 2007,15:14) Hi LAM,
In Whose strength?
His own?Zech4
” 6Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.”
Perfect obedience would entail complete reliance…that's the point.But perfect obedience as God the Son, without being held to the standards of God himself, would be meaningless.
In other words, Jesus perfect obedience was redicated upon the fact that He was God in the flesh.
That is why His temptations were nothing like YOUR temptations.
Would you be tempted to turn stones into bread, no matter how hungry you were?? Of course not. That is a temptation reserved for the only begotten Son of God.
Hi LAM,
He did what no man had ever done.
He fulfilled the Law.
He was not under it because he was filled with and led by the Spirit
Gal5
“18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. “He was the second Adam empowered from above this time with the ability to fully obey.
He could have resisted the wind of the Spirit and was tempted to in the garden but yet obeyed.He chose to walk in the Spirit.
We can follow him.
Gal 5
” 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”Quote (lamontre @ June 12 2007,15:23) Quote
Indeed, you are bound by these creeds to believe that Jesus is not his own man (a true Son of God), but the Almighty incarnate only.Hrm….
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Excellent passage in Romans – thank you for sharing this!
Quote (lamontre @ June 12 2007,15:29) That is why His temptations were nothing like YOUR temptations.
This always makes me sad to see a man take Jesus out of the realm of manhood and make him so different from yourself. How then can you relate to this man from Nazareth? Can you relate to him at all? I would guess that you could not if you believe him to be God in the flesh? After all – his temptations are nothing like your own?Instead, wouldn't it be nice to know you have a Mediator who would go to the Father and say something like, “Father, really, I see Lam down there and he's really trying. I've been right where he is, Father. I know what he is going through and it's rough. Please give him more grace!”
Just thinking out loud here….When you turn the Son of God into God the Son – you are really robbing yourself of a man who knows what it's like to be you in every way.
lamontre,
Thanks for answering my questions. Now, I better understand where you are coming from. I don't think that you understand my point of view, but at the very least, we can have a coherent discussion about your point of view.
Your entire view can be summed up by this quote from your last post:
Quote Jesus was simply being obedient. He was fully God, and had not lost anything. Read the Philippians passage carefully, and understand what Paul is saying that WE should do, and then you will understand what Jesus did, as God in the flesh. In other words, you believe that “perfect obedience” explains any aspect of Jesus' earthly mission that seem less than God-like.
It's an interesting point of view, but it is entirely grounded in speculation. There isn't a single verse that states that God asked Jesus to “limit his abilities” in any way. In fact, scripture shows Jesus doing things that go far beyond human limitations. He heals the sick, walks on water, calms a storm, etc., so clearly he has not been asked to “limit his abilities to that of an ordinary human being”. So, the only remaining possibility, from your point of view, is that he was asked to limit specific abilities at specific times, (e.g. He wasked to “not know” the hour of his return).
But, the problem is that you have no scriptural basis for this assertion other than sheer speculation. And the speculation is only required if you believe that Jesus had to be “fully God”. However, if you ignore the man made creeds of the fourth century and beyond, and you look purely at the evidence, it obvious that Jesus was not “fully God” when he was growing in wisdom; that he was not “fully God” when he did not know the hour of his own return; that he was not “fully God” when he was dead and buried in a grave.
So here's your challenge:
Show me one verse where God asks Jesus not to use an ability that he has. Without that, your position is unsubstantiated by scripture and is firmly in the realm of man made additions to scripture that the apostles warned so heavily about.
lamontre >.. I would like to address this issue of miracles with you ,first where did Jesus ever say he did the miracles himself you won't find it it the scriptures, but he said he could do nothing of himself but it was the Father who was in him who does the work not him and a good example of this point was when Lazarus was going to be raised. Jesus told Mary and Martha that if they only belived that they would see the glory of God, now if He would have left it at that, when Lazarus come out they would indeed thought Jesus was God, but immedeatly after Jesus said it he seams to apoligise to God by saying to God that the only reason he said it was so that they would believe that He (GOD) sent him ( Jesus), the miracles God did for Jesus was to show that Jesus was indeed the Messiah. God is the only true mericale worker and no one else. A we by being yoked with the Father can be granted miracles in our lives also. Hope this may help. God bless all who love truth and seek it.
Hi GB,
Welcome.
And of course both the apostles and the prophets before them did miracles, even raising the dead, in the same manner, by the power of God.
18And when the child was grown, it fell on a day, that he went out to his father to the reapers.19And he said unto his father, My head, my head. And he said to a lad, Carry him to his mother.
20And when he had taken him, and brought him to his mother, he sat on her knees till noon, and then died.
21And she went up, and laid him on the bed of the man of God, and shut the door upon him, and went out.
22And she called unto her husband, and said, Send me, I pray thee, one of the young men, and one of the asses, that I may run to the man of God, and come again.
23And he said, Wherefore wilt thou go to him to day? it is neither new moon, nor sabbath. And she said, It shall be well.
24Then she saddled an ass, and said to her servant, Drive, and go forward; slack not thy riding for me, except I bid thee.
25So she went and came unto the man of God to mount Carmel. And it came to pass, when the man of God saw her afar off, that he said to Gehazi his servant, Behold, yonder is that Shunammite:
26Run now, I pray thee, to meet her, and say unto her, Is it well with thee? is it well with thy husband? is it well with the child? And she answered, It is well:
27And when she came to the man of God to the hill, she caught him by the feet: but Gehazi came near to thrust her away. And the man of God said, Let her alone; for her soul is vexed within her: and the LORD hath hid it from me, and hath not told me.
28Then she said, Did I desire a son of my lord? did I not say, Do not deceive me?
29Then he said to Gehazi, Gird up thy loins, and take my staff in thine hand, and go thy way: if thou meet any man, salute him not; and if any salute thee, answer him not again: and lay my staff upon the face of the child.
30And the mother of the child said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And he arose, and followed her.
31And Gehazi passed on before them, and laid the staff upon the face of the child; but there was neither voice, nor hearing. Wherefore he went again to meet him, and told him, saying, The child is not awaked.
32And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, and laid upon his bed.
33He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the LORD.
34And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm.
35Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.
36And he called Gehazi, and said, Call this Shunammite. So he called her. And when she was come in unto him, he said, Take up thy son.
37Then she went in, and fell at his feet, and bowed herself to the ground, and took up her son, and went out.
WhatIsTrue,June wrote:[/quote]
Quote In other words, you believe that “perfect obedience” explains any aspect of Jesus' earthly mission that seem less than God-like. Actually, there is nothing in Jesus earthly mission that is “less than God-like”. That is just a characterization on your part, and is becomes no more than a straw-man.
Quote It's an interesting point of view, but it is entirely grounded in speculation. There isn't a single verse that states that God asked Jesus to “limit his abilities” in any way. In fact, scripture shows Jesus doing things that go far beyond human limitations. He heals the sick, walks on water, calms a storm, etc. So you deny that Jesus did only those things he saw his Father doing? All those things were also done in obedience. This is not speculation. It is entirely supported by scripture. Something I have still not seen from your responses.
Quote so clearly he has not been asked to “limit his abilities to that of an ordinary human being”. So, the only remaining possibility, from your point of view, is that he was asked to limit specific abilities at specific times, (e.g. He wasked to “not know” the hour of his return). You speak of it as if Jesus was given a checklist or something?
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.Quote But, the problem is that you have no scriptural basis for this assertion other than sheer speculation. You only say that because you have scriptural rebuttal for the scriptures I have already quoted that support my position entirely. I mean, if you really wish to continue with this, thats fine, but you know as well as I that you have seen my point and know it to be true.
Quote And the speculation is only required if you believe that Jesus had to be “fully God”. However, if you ignore the man made creeds of the fourth century and beyond, and you look purely at the evidence, it obvious that Jesus was not “fully God” when he was growing in wisdom; that he was not “fully God” when he did not know the hour of his own return; that he was not “fully God” when he was dead and buried in a grave. Thats an assumption, not a fact. And it is an assumption based upon a faulty and illogical premise; if he was God before his incarnation, he could not cease to be God afterwards.
Quote So here's your challenge: Show me one verse where God asks Jesus not to use an ability that he has.
Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 14 2007,13:05) lamontre >.. I would like to address this issue of miracles with you ,first where did Jesus ever say he did the miracles himself you won't find it it the scriptures, but he said he could do nothing of himself but it was the Father who was in him who does the work not him and a good example of this point was when Lazarus was going to be raised. Jesus told Mary and Martha that if they only belived that they would see the glory of God, now if He would have left it at that, when Lazarus come out they would indeed thought Jesus was God, but immedeatly after Jesus said it he seams to apoligise to God by saying to God that the only reason he said it was so that they would believe that He (GOD) sent him ( Jesus), the miracles God did for Jesus was to show that Jesus was indeed the Messiah. God is the only true mericale worker and no one else. A we by being yoked with the Father can be granted miracles in our lives also. Hope this may help. God bless all who love truth and seek it.
Again, you are overemphasizing the fact that Jesus was indeed human. Everything he did, he did as a man being obedient to God. Therefore, of course, he was being fully reliant upon God.Just because he was living as a man, does not preclude His nature as God.
Hi LAM,
His origins should not cloud your view of who he was on earth-a man like you and I empowered from above- as we can be.
We follow him..lamontre>…..lets conceder another angle in this descussion , does it not say God does all things after the council of his own WILL, if you agree with this then why did Jesus say never the less not my Will but thy will be done, and when he was showing us how to pray he said they kingdom come Thy WILL be done and again it is written in the volume of the books i come to do THY WILL O GOD. we all know that our will are the essents of who we are and each person has one and they are different from each others and Jesus had a will and it was different from God just like ours are and we with the help of God must put ours to death as Jesus did his the subject of Wills is another proof that Jesus was and is not God. hope this helps. peace to all who seek truth.??? Gene Balthrop
lamontre,
Let me simplify my point even further, (based on your response).
You say:
Quote So you deny that Jesus did only those things he saw his Father doing? All those things were also done in obedience. …
You speak of it as if Jesus was given a checklist or something?
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.Yet, Jesus did not know the hour of his return. Did he see his Father forget the hour of his return? Did he cease to be one with his Father's memory?
Which is it? Was Jesus everything that his Father was at all times, or did he, at times, demonstrate less knowledge, or less power, than his Father?
Mark 13:32
But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.Bonus question: Why doesn't the Holy Spirit know when Jesus will return? The above verse clearly states that only the Father knows. That's kind of odd for an equal trinity of omniscient persons.
Hi WIT,
You say
“Bonus question: Why doesn't the Holy Spirit know when Jesus will return? The above verse clearly states that only the Father knows. That's kind of odd for an equal trinity of omniscient persons.”The Spirit of God does guide the sons of God on this matter.
1Thess 5
” 1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. “
Do not know the day nor the hour but should be aware of the times and the seasons with our oil flask fully charged.
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