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lamontre,
Greetings from the “arrogant” OP!
I am glad that you have taken on this challenge. Unfortunately, you seem to consider vain repetition a substitute for sound exegesis, which reduces this whole exercise to a long-winded, unsubstantiated rebuke. There are much better Trinitarian responses contained in this thread, and I would suggest that you go back and read them. You will learn how to better defend your point of view, though, in my humble –
– opinion, you will still be wrong.In any case, let's take a look at what you have got.
lamontre wrote:
Quote Quote Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet be ignorant, (Mark 13:32)? Mar 13:32 But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Ignorant? I think you are a very arrogant poster, first of all, which is strike one against your particular Jesus.
Strike 2:
Phi 2:5 For think this within you, which mind was also in Christ Jesus,
Phi 2:6 who subsisting in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
Phi 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having become in the likeness of men
Phi 2:8 and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, having become obedient until death, even the death of a cross.Your interpretation of that scripture should prove interesting.
First, I note that this response does not specifically address the question that I asked. There's no point in quoting the question if your answer is unaffected by it. If, however, your intent was to say this:
“…Jesus gave up some of His divine attributes while He was a man here on earth. These attributes were omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence.“
Then, I would suggest that you read the following, written by a prominent apologist for the Trinitarian faith:
Quote The kenosis theory states that Jesus gave up some of His divine attributes while He was a man here on earth. These attributes were omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence. Christ did this voluntarily so that He could function as a man in order to fulfill the work of redemption. This view was first introduced in the late 1800s in Germany with Gottfried Thomasius (1802-75), a Lutheran theologian.
Phil. 2:5-8 does not teach that Jesus gave up any of His divine attributes since it says nothing of those attributes. Instead, it is speaking of His humility that moved him, according to the will of the Father, to leave His majestic state in heaven and enter into the humble position of human nature.…
The Kenosis theory is a dangerous doctrine because if it were true then it would mean that Jesus was not fully divine. If Jesus was not fully divine, then His atoning work would not be sufficient to atone for the sins of the world.
…
Do you agree with this Trinitarian, who represents the orthodox view of the Trinity? If not, what scriptural evidence do you use to support your position?
By the way, my interpretation of the Phillipians passage is as follows:
Quote To me, these verses speak of Yeshua's stature not his nature. As the Messiah, the Son of God, he was above all other men, but he humbled himself in service of men in order to do his Father's will, ultimately for the redemption of mankind. If you read the account of his wilderness temptation by Satan, you can see that Satan's primary objective was to get him to assert his the privileges of his stature in place of fulfilling his humble mission. lamontre wrote:
Quote Quote Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet be powerless, (John 5:30)? Joh 5:30 I am able to do nothing from Myself; just as I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, for I do not seek My will, but the will of the One sending Me, the Father.
Phi 2:5 For think this within you, which mind was also in Christ Jesus,
Phi 2:6 who subsisting in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
Phi 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having become in the likeness of men
Phi 2:8 and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself,<—something I am sure you know little about) having become obedient until death, even the death of a cross.Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest not being able to sympathize with our weaknesses but One having been tried in all respects according to our likeness, apart from sin.
Rom 8:3 For the Law being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
It's nightmarish for you I am sure….
Again, this does not answer the fundamental question. Put another way:
Can God's power be limited by human nature? If not, then what does Jesus' lack of power have to do with his human condition?
By the way, you seem to be emphasizing that Jesus is a “likeness” of human flesh. Do you mean to imply that he wasn't really completely human, (i.e weak and capable of sin), but only appeared to be?
lamontre wrote:
Quote Quote Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet lack wisdom, (Luke 2:52)? Luk 2:52 And Jesus progressed in wisdom and stature and favor before God and men.
Phi 2:5 For think this within you, which mind was also in Christ Jesus,
Phi 2:6 who subsisting in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
Phi 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having become in the likeness of men
Phi 2:8 and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself,<—something I am sure you know little about) having become obedient until death, even the death of a cross.Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine bra
ss, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: (see Isa 41:4)
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.Lets hear your interpretation? When did the first and the last ever die in your opinion???
I think thats strike 3….but lets allow you a few more trys.
The passage that I reference and the passage that you quote are two different time periods. My actual question was, how is it possible that Jesus lacked wisdom at any point in time, as Luke 2:52 clearly demonstrates? How your Revelation passage shows that Jesus did not lack wisdom while on earth is not at all clear to me.
By the way, you asked when “the first and last [died]”. Do you mean to imply that Jesus did not die for our sins, or that Jesus is not the first and the last.
lamontre wrote:
Quote Quote Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet need perfecting, (Hebrews 5:9)? Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Phi 2:5 For think this within you, which mind was also in Christ Jesus,
Phi 2:6 who subsisting in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
Phi 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having become in the likeness of men
Phi 2:8 and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself,<—something I am sure you know little about) having become obedient until death, even the death of a cross.Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.I bet you would have joined them in gathering stones to throw wouldn't you??
Again, I am going to have to plead total ignorance as to how your response even relates to the question. WorshippingJesus, (a Trinitarian poster on this site), had a very well reasoned response to this question, and I conceded his point many pages ago. Find it and read it.
lamontre wrote:
Quote Quote Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet die, (Revelations 2:8)? You need to answer that one. The scriptures either make Jesus a liar, and a possible lunatics, or he is the first and the last who died, and is alive forever more. I know, you don't like that, and that says allot about who you have placed your faith in. You have placed your faith in a false god….a false Jesus. You believe another gospel, which was never given to the saints.
So, you would say, “yes”, God, in the person of Jesus, can die?
My God is immortal. He exists from eternity to eternity, and did not die anywhere in between. If we do not share this same God, then I mourn for you.
there are many reason for all the confusion concerning different doctrinal beliefs,it took years of study and God's spirit to work my way through a good number of them and there still some i haven't come to fully understand but when it comes to Jesus being fully God and fully man i do believe i understand this. if people could come to see that it was man who brought sin into the earth and it was man who had to atone for them not God. the bible painly say's there is ONE GOD and ONE MEDIATOR between GOD and Man the MAN JESUS CHRISTand Jesus said that God was the (ONLY) TRUE GOD he did not say he was.people who switch Jesus back and forth from a man state and God state are giving Jesus an advantage he never had and had he had that advantage of being a God then his sacrifice just wouldn't be the same. Because God can't die, It wasen't God who died on that cross or God decised as a man, it was a 100 percent man and nothing more, who gave his life (the only one he had) for us, and because he did God, His God and our God exalted him above every name in heaven and earth it was the ultimate act of FAITH>you can't ask someone to give more then his life can you. God was in Jesus just like he can be in us through his holy spirit.and we can yoke with God just like Jesus was and our burdens will be lite just like his was also.It was the love of God shed around in Jesus heart that lead to do the will of God just like it can us also. May the blessings of God our Father be on all who know this.Ahhh, finally….I will skip the irrelevent introduction and get right to the meat of the discussion;
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 12 2007,05:32) First, I note that this response (Phil 2:5-8) does not specifically address the question that I asked. Of course it does. You just don't like what it says.
Quote There's no point in quoting the question if your answer is unaffected by it. If, however, your intent was to say this: “…Jesus gave up some of His divine attributes while He was a man here on earth. These attributes were omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence.“
No, as I do not subscribe to that, but thanks for the assumption.
It says Christ Jesus existed in the form of God, and humbled himself to become a man. That does not say that he “gave up” anything, but voluntarily allowed the Father to dictate to Him His life, knowledge, position, mission etc. This makes him our example, which explains Pauls refence in vs 5.
Quote Do you agree with this Trinitarian Yes, I do.
Quote By the way, my interpretation of the Phillipians passage is as follows: To me, these verses speak of Yeshua's stature not his nature.
The “form” of God refers to stature??
G3444
μορφή
morphē
mor-fay'
Perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts); shape; figuratively nature: – form.Quote As the Messiah, the Son of God, he was above all other men, but he humbled himself in service of men in order to do his Father's will, ultimately for the redemption of mankind. A logical question (if I may?)
If you have a son, he will be human in nature, yes?
And if God has a son He is
in nature?Each after his own kind, is I believe God's law.
Quote If you read the account of his wilderness temptation by Satan, you can see that Satan's primary objective was to get him to assert his the privileges of his stature in place of fulfilling his humble mission. I agree with that. Turning stones into bread is hardly a temptation for a “regular” man though.
Quote lamontre wrote:
Phi 2:5 For think this within you, which mind was also in Christ Jesus,
Phi 2:6 who subsisting in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
Phi 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having become in the likeness of men
Phi 2:8 and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself,<—something I am sure you know little about) having become obedient until death, even the death of a cross.Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest not being able to sympathize with our weaknesses but One having been tried in all respects according to our likeness, apart from sin.
Rom 8:3 For the Law being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
Again, this does not answer the fundamental question. Put another way:
Can God's power be limited by human nature? If not, then what does Jesus' lack of power have to do with his human condition?
Gods power was not limited. Jesus was obedient, not limited. Please read the scriptures I quoted very carefully.
Quote By the way, you seem to be emphasizing that Jesus is a “likeness” of human flesh. Do you mean to imply that he wasn't really completely human, (i.e weak and capable of sin), but only appeared to be? Unless you know of another man who was concieved through a virgin woman by God Himself, then you will have to concede that point. He represents the new creation. He did not carry the sin of Adam. His temptations had to come from without. You will find no reference that suggests he lusted after riches, or women, or that he struggled with homosexual (or any other sexual) lusts and temptations that we might endure. He was tempted in all points as we are, that is, “lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, and the pride of life” in his temptations before Satan alone. He needed nothing more to fulfill His role in being “touched with the feeling of our infirmaties”.
Quote lamontre wrote:
Luk 2:52 And Jesus progressed in wisdom and stature and favor before God and men.Phi 2:5 For think this within you, which mind was also in Christ Jesus,
Phi 2:6 who subsisting in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
Phi 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having become in the likeness of men
Phi 2:8 and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself,<—something I am sure you know little about) having become obedient until death, even the death of a cross.Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: (see Isa 41:4)
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.Lets hear your interpretation? When did the first and the last ever die in your opinion???
I think thats strike 3….but lets allow you a few more trys.
Quote The passage that I reference and the passage that you quote are two different time periods. That's a good dance, but it changes nothing. You are now avoiding the issue. When did the first and the last ever die?
Quote My actual question was, how is it possible that Jesus lacked wisdom at any point in time, as Luke 2:52 clearly demonstrates? How your Revelation passage shows that Jesus did not lack wisdom while on earth is not at all clear to me. As I say, you need to read the scripture references VERY carefully. Jesus was simply being obedient. What would perfect obedience look like for the only begotten Son of God?? Would it not be “perfect”?
Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Mat 26:54 But how then shall the Scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?Surely there are no “regular” men who would say that in such a situation.
Quote By the way, you asked when “the first and last [died]”. Do you mean to imply that Jesus did not die for our sins, or that Jesus is not the first and the last. I think you know exactly what I mean, because that question makes no sense according to what I wrote.
Quote lamontre wrote: Phi 2:5 For think this within you, which mind was also in Christ Jesus,
Phi 2:6 who subsisting in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
Phi 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having become in the likeness of men
Phi 2:8 and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself,<—something I am sure you know little about) having become obedient until death, even the death of a cross.Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.I bet you would have joined them in gathering stones to throw wouldn't you??
Quote Again, I am going to have to plead total ignorance as to how your response even relates to the question. That's because you refuse to see the relevence of the Phillipians passage I have quoted over and over again.
But on this particular point, I would like to add that the believers perfection also comes in the ressurrection, and so, I am not sure why you find that reference so hard to understand. Jesus too, was ressurrected.
Quote WorshippingJesus, (a Trinitarian poster on this site), had a very well reasoned response to this question, and I conceded his point many pages ago. Find it and read it. And so you now ask these questions of people, for what purpose??
Quote lamontre wrote: You need to answer that one. The scriptures either make Jesus a liar, and a possible lunatics, or he is the first and the last who died, and is alive forever more. I know, you don't like that, and that says allot about who you have placed your faith in. You have placed your faith in a false god….a false Jesus. You believe another gospel, which was never given to the saints
So, you would say, “yes”, God, in the person of Jesus, can die?
This is a failure on your part to understand what actually happened to Jesus, after His death. Do you not believe in life after death??
Quote My God is immortal. He exists from eternity to eternity, and did not die anywhere in between. If we do not share this same God, then I mourn for you. Mourne, if you feel it necessary. Your god is not the God revealed in the scriptures.
Take care.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 12 2007,08:10) there are many reason for all the confusion concerning different doctrinal beliefs,it took years of study and God's spirit to work my way through a good number of them and there still some i haven't come to fully understand but when it comes to Jesus being fully God and fully man i do believe i understand this. if people could come to see that it was man who brought sin into the earth and it was man who had to atone for them not God. the bible painly say's there is ONE GOD and ONE MEDIATOR between GOD and Man the MAN JESUS CHRISTand Jesus said that God was the (ONLY) TRUE GOD he did not say he was.people who switch Jesus back and forth from a man state and God state are giving Jesus an advantage he never had and had he had that advantage of being a God then his sacrifice just wouldn't be the same. Because God can't die, It wasen't God who died on that cross or God decised as a man, it was a 100 percent man and nothing more, who gave his life (the only one he had) for us, and because he did God, His God and our God exalted him above every name in heaven and earth it was the ultimate act of FAITH>you can't ask someone to give more then his life can you. God was in Jesus just like he can be in us through his holy spirit.and we can yoke with God just like Jesus was and our burdens will be lite just like his was also.It was the love of God shed around in Jesus heart that lead to do the will of God just like it can us also. May the blessings of God our Father be on all who know this.
Hi and welcome Gene,
Thank you.
Jesus is the promised messiah.
That is all we need to work from the scriptures with.Quote (lamontre @ June 12 2007,08:27) And if God has a son He is in nature? Each after his own kind, is I believe God's law.
LM,Regarding “each after his own kind” –
God/God = God (not possible because there is only One God)
Mary/God = Divine Man
Fully both/no mix/fake conception/non scriptural = incarnation…..God in human flesh.
Mix of both God and Man/true conception/scriptural = Divine Man…..Jesus!
God wanted a true Son who had his nature – yes. He also wanted a Son who had our nature (so he could be our Mediator and High Priest)…….how could he go about accomplishing this? By coming himself? No, by having a true son who is both him and mankind.
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 12 2007,09:39) Quote (lamontre @ June 12 2007,08:27) And if God has a son He is in nature? Each after his own kind, is I believe God's law.
LM,Regarding “each after his own kind” –
God/God = God (not possible because there is only One God)
Mary/God = Divine Man
Fully both/no mix/fake conception/non scriptural = incarnation…..God in human flesh.
Mix of both God and Man/true conception/scriptural = Divine Man…..Jesus!
God wanted a true Son who had his nature – yes. He also wanted a Son who had our nature (so he could be our Mediator and High Priest)…….how could he go about accomplishing this? By coming himself? No, by having a true son who is both him and mankind.
Hi not3,
The Son of Man inherited our fallen state including the damaged genes from Mary when conceived as a human son of God. He was not God in flesh but was a vessel for God and revealed the nature of God within his own nature.Hi Nick,
Yes, this is very close to what I believe as well. God did live in Jesus the way you live in your sons…..AND….due to receiving holy Spirit without measure, God was “in” Jesus working his glorious purposes. I think we are saying the same thing, yes?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 12 2007,08:53) HiLAM,
So your God can die?
Christ died.
But he is the Son of God.
Nice, I answered that silly objection above. Got anything scriptural to add to the discussion?Quote (Not3in1 @ June 12 2007,09:39) Quote (lamontre @ June 12 2007,08:27) And if God has a son He is in nature? Each after his own kind, is I believe God's law.
LM,Regarding “each after his own kind” –
God/God = God (not possible because there is only One God)
Mary/God = Divine Man
Fully both/no mix/fake conception/non scriptural = incarnation…..God in human flesh.
Mix of both God and Man/true conception/scriptural = Divine Man…..Jesus!
God wanted a true Son who had his nature – yes. He also wanted a Son who had our nature (so he could be our Mediator and High Priest)…….how could he go about accomplishing this? By coming himself? No, by having a true son who is both him and mankind.
I agree completely.However, he did not carry the Adamic sin curse.
[Skipping writing down another useless greeting.
]OK lamontre,
I can see that this discussion is quickly becoming a lesson in bad communication. Let's cut through all the smoke screens by simply answering the questions that were asked of us – nothing more nothing less. I will start by answering the questions in your latest post.
Here are your questions:
Quote 1. The “form” of God refers to stature?? G3444
μορφή
morphē
mor-fay'
Perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts); shape; figuratively nature: – form.2. If you have a son, he will be human in nature, yes? And if God has a son He is
in nature?3. You are now avoiding the issue. When did the first and the last ever die?
4. What would perfect obedience look like for the only begotten Son of God?? Would it not be “perfect”?
5. And so you now ask these questions of people, for what purpose??
6. This is a failure on your part to understand what actually happened to Jesus, after His death. Do you not believe in life after death??
1. The “form” of God refers to stature??
I asked you if you agreed with the Trinitarian whose exegesis of Phillipians 2:6-9 I quoted. You said, “yes”. This is what he wrote, in part:
Quote Instead, it is speaking of His humility that moved him, according to the will of the Father, to leave His majestic state in heaven and enter into the humble position of human nature. If you say that “form of God” refers to his nature, then what did he empty himself of? His nature? Or, his stature? Please add this to the list of questions that you answer.
2. If you have a son, he will be human in nature, yes? And if God has a son He is
in nature?Yes, if I have a son he will be human in nature. As for God, let's look at a few examples of His sons:
Exdous 4:22
“Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD: Israel is My son, My firstborn.'”1 Chronicles 28:6
“Now He said to me, ‘It is your son Solomon who shall build My house and My courts; for I have chosen him to be My son, and I will be his Father.'”Job 38:6-7
“To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?”Romans 8:14
“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”It appears God's sons come in many forms.
3. You are now avoiding the issue. When did the first and the last ever die?
I didn't realize that I had to state the obvious. Jesus died sometime around 33 A.D, give or take a few years, but rose from the grave three days after his death. In other words, he was dead, and then he was alive.
Revelations 2:8
“8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,
‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:”4. What would perfect obedience look like for the only begotten Son of God?? Would it not be “perfect”?
Yes, it would be perfect. Your point?
5. And so you now ask these questions of people, for what purpose??
This was a rhetorical question, I presume, but I will answer it anyway. I ask questions in the hopes that people will actually stop and think about the answer. Many times, they don't.
6. This is a failure on your part to understand what actually happened to Jesus, after His death. Do you not believe in life after death??
I believe in the resurrection of the dead.
Revelation 20:5
“5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.”Now, here are my questions:
Quote
1. Do you agree with this Trinitarian, who represents the orthodox view of the Trinity? If not, what scriptural evidence do you use to support your position? (I ask this again, just in case you wish to change your mind after re-reading the quote carefully.)2. Can God's power be limited by human nature? If not, then what does Jesus' lack of power have to do with his human condition?
3. How is it possible that Jesus lacked wisdom at any point in time, as Luke 2:52 clearly demonstrates?
4. So, you would say, “yes”, God, in the person of Jesus, can die?
5. If you say that “form of God” refers to his nature, then what did he empty himself of? His nature? Or, his stature?
Please answer them. Then, we will at least be having the same conversation.
Quote (lamontre @ June 12 2007,10:06) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 12 2007,09:39) Quote (lamontre @ June 12 2007,08:27) And if God has a son He is in nature? Each after his own kind, is I believe God's law.
LM,Regarding “each after his own kind” –
God/God = God (not possible because there is only One God)
Mary/God = Divine Man
Fully both/no mix/fake conception/non scriptural = incarnation…..God in human flesh.
Mix of both God and Man/true conception/scriptural = Divine Man…..Jesus!
God wanted a true Son who had his nature – yes. He also wanted a Son who had our nature (so he could be our Mediator and High Priest)…….how could he go about accomplishing this? By coming himself? No, by having a true son who is both him and mankind.
I agree completely.However, he did not carry the Adamic sin curse.
Lamontre,Do you agree with the Definition of Chalcedon?
Tim
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 12 2007,09:59) Hi not3,
So the divine loving nature revealed through Christ was that of God within him.
God's Spirit within him – yes – I believe this is true.Quote (lamontre @ June 12 2007,10:06) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 12 2007,09:39) Quote (lamontre @ June 12 2007,08:27) And if God has a son He is in nature? Each after his own kind, is I believe God's law.
LM,Regarding “each after his own kind” –
God/God = God (not possible because there is only One God)
Mary/God = Divine Man
Fully both/no mix/fake conception/non scriptural = incarnation…..God in human flesh.
Mix of both God and Man/true conception/scriptural = Divine Man…..Jesus!
God wanted a true Son who had his nature – yes. He also wanted a Son who had our nature (so he could be our Mediator and High Priest)…….how could he go about accomplishing this? By coming himself? No, by having a true son who is both him and mankind.
I agree completely.However, he did not carry the Adamic sin curse.
Agreed.He was born under law, but somehow that law did not apply to him – he was above the law. He spoke a new relationship to God that even seemed apposed to that of the religiosity of the day.
Speaking of religion of the day, I see some are wanting you to agree to certain creeds OR pledge your agreement to them. In all sincerity, I caution you because it is a trap. One might say that if you believe in the creeds you cannot believe that Jesus is a divine man. Indeed, you are bound by these creeds to believe that Jesus is not his own man (a true Son of God), but the Almighty incarnate only.
If religion is that set of dogmatic truths, moral laws, and ritual practices, which human beings engage in, in order to have the proper relationship with God, then (imho) Jesus is the most anti-religious figure in all of history.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 12 2007,10:51)
I can see that this discussion is quickly becoming a lesson in bad communication. Let's cut through all the smoke screens by simply answering the questions that were asked of us – nothing more nothing less. I will start by answering the questions in your latest post.Well Ok, but mischaracterizing my posts is not going to help your case. You need scripture references interpretted in biblical context.
Quote I asked you if you agreed with the Trinitarian whose exegesis of Phillipians 2:6-9 I quoted. You said, “yes”. This is what he wrote, in part: Instead, it is speaking of His humility that moved him, according to the will of the Father, to leave His majestic state in heaven and enter into the humble position of human nature.
If you say that “form of God” refers to his nature, then what did he empty himself of? His nature? Or, his stature? Please add this to the list of questions that you answer.
Your not listening, or perhaps not reading carefully enough. Or prehaps your just pretending not to see what I have said.
Jesus was simply being obedient. He was fully God, and had not lost anything. Read the Philippians passage carefully, and understand what Paul is saying that WE should do, and then you will understand what Jesus did, as God in the flesh.
Quote 2. If you have a son, he will be human in nature, yes? And if God has a son He is in nature?Yes, if I have a son he will be human in nature. As for God, let's look at a few examples of His sons:
Exdous 4:22
“Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD: Israel is My son, My firstborn.'”Can you not see the prophestic significance of this statement??
Jesus was a direct descendant, through Mary. It is so amazingly awsome as to be impossible for any man to arrange.
Quote 1 Chronicles 28:6
“Now He said to me, ‘It is your son Solomon who shall build My house and My courts; for I have chosen him to be My son, and I will be his Father.'”This refers to Jesus, not Solomon. You are seeing scripture exactly the way the blind Pharisees did. Your missing the prophetic nature of these verses. Which is quite understandable to be honest.
Quote Job 38:6-7
“To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?”Well now this is simply ignorance of scripture. Son(s) of God are what believers are. The only begotten Son of God is a different animal altogether.
Quote Romans 8:14
“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”It appears God's sons come in many forms.
Son(s) yes…..only begotten Son of God?? Well, I made that point already. It is only by being IN CHRIST that men qualify as sons of God, and can be lead by the Spirit of God.
Quote 3. You are now avoiding the issue. When did the first and the last ever die? I didn't realize that I had to state the obvious. Jesus died sometime around 33 A.D, give or take a few years, but rose from the grave three days after his death. In other words, he was dead, and then he was alive.
Revelations 2:8
“8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,
‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:”LOL! Still refuse to address the real issue don't you?
Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
This is he who claims to have died in the verse from Rev 1.
Your doctrine has a real problem.
I know you have to see it.
Quote 4. What would perfect obedience look like for the only begotten Son of God?? Would it not be “perfect”? Yes, it would be perfect. Your point?
You know what my point is. If God the Father said to God the Son, “you are not to know that” then he would not. That does not limit his ability, it in fact expands it well beyond anything any normal man could accomplish. Ever tried to “unknow” something??
Quote 5. And so you now ask these questions of people, for what purpose?? This was a rhetorical question, I presume, but I will answer it anyway. I ask questions in the hopes that people will actually stop and think about the answer. Many times, they don't.
:shrug
Quote 6. This is a failure on your part to understand what actually happened to Jesus, after His death. Do you not believe in life after death?? I believe in the resurrection of the dead.
Revelation 20:5
“5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.”Now, here are my questions:
1. Do you agree with this Trinitarian, who represents the orthodox view of the Trinity? If not, what scriptural evidence do you use to support your position? (I ask this again, just in case you wish to change your mind after re-reading the quote carefully.)
I answered it the first time, and I believe all my statements have scriptural support. If not, let me know, I'll get back to it. It's all in the scriptures.
Quote 2.
Can God's power be limited by human nature? If not, then what does Jesus' lack of power have to do with his human condition?No, but perfect obedience from a perfect God can limit anything. This is like asking, “Can God make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?”
Quote 3. How is it possible that Jesus lacked wisdom at any point in time, as Luke 2:52 clearly demonstrates? Obedience, simple, perefect obedience.
Quote 4. So, you would say, “yes”, God, in the person of Jesus, can die? 5. If you say that “form of God” refers to his nature, then what did he empty himself of? His nature? Or, his stature?
Niether. 🙂 Jesus acted in perfect obedience. Simple.
Hi LAM,
In Whose strength?
His own?Zech4
” 6Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.”Quote (Not3in1 @ June 12 2007,13:33) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 12 2007,09:39) Agreed. He was born under law, but somehow that law did not apply to him – he was above the law.
He COULD have been above the law, as the author of it. Yet He chose perfect obedience to the Father for a great cause.
Quote He spoke a new relationship to God that even seemed apposed to that of the religiosity of the day. He opposed religiosity, that much is certain, but this was not “new”.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.Quote Speaking of religion of the day, I see some are wanting you to agree to certain creeds OR pledge your agreement to them. In all sincerity, I caution you because it is a trap. Thank you for your concern, and I appreciate the warning, but the Holy Spirit has brought me here specifically because of these “traps”. =-)
Quote One might say that if you believe in the creeds you cannot believe that Jesus is a divine man. I am not certain that the acceptance of creeds can overcome the power of God for very long.
Quote Indeed, you are bound by these creeds to believe that Jesus is not his own man (a true Son of God), but the Almighty incarnate only. Hrm….
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?Quote If religion is that set of dogmatic truths, moral laws, and ritual practices, which human beings engage in, in order to have the proper relationship with God, then (imho) Jesus is the most anti-religious figure in all of history. Yes, Jesus embodied perfect obedience to Gods laws.
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