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Quote (Gene @ April 11 2009,15:16) Chosenone……….I came to that conclusion a long time ago, when I tried so hard to quit some sins i had and would continually fail until i gave up and turned it over the the FATHER and ask for his help and overcame them , God gave me the desire to quit them and more He gave me the power to also. I know it was not by my own Choices or strength . It was by the Spirit of GOD, and i have had many many prayers answered in my Life. I could give page after page of things GOD has done in my life. No one will ever convince me it was by my (so-called) Free Will choices , But ONLY by the power of GOD HIMSELF. I believe like Paul there is no Good thing in this body of death. IMO love and peace to you and yours…………………………..gene
G,
So you decided to seek help.
Good choices we all have to make daily to cooperate.Nick………God lead me to, If he wasn't with me i would have never even cared about my sins. I was influenced by GOD to WILL to change and that is (NOT) (FREE WILL) Choices at all. Quite trying to make it a self work It was God who not only drew me to those thoughts but also gave me the deliverance i needed, it was not My Power or (so-called) (FREE) WILL Choices, as you believe you repent by. When i decided i would repent and change i couldn't, It was God who gave me repentance, BY HIS GRACE and HIS GRACE alone, I take (NO) Credit for any of My Salvation or Repentance, I contributed nothing, as you believe you do, for yours brother.
love and peace to you and yours…………………………..gene
Thanks Seeking and Gene for sharing your experiences that led you to believe that God is in complete control. I too, at onetime believed that I had to “do certain things” to be saved, until led by the spirit, by God, shown the truth. The scripture in Eph.2:10 …”His (God) achievement are we”, says it all!
Blessings.
Nick…….The heart only speaks what was put in it , and GOD Said I will Give them an (NEW) Heart. ONE (HE) CREATES. You just can't except the work of GOD can you NICK. It must be (YOUR WORKS) or you can't except it, because you so-called (FREE WILL) Choices are what is saving you right?. What do you do where it says we did (NOT) Choose GOD (HE) Choose US First. So much for your so-called (FREE WILL) Choices brother.
love and peace to you and your Nick……………………..gene
G,
Did God say He will put a new heart in all men?
Please look at context before you build doctrine.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2009,18:23) Hi C,
By WE do you mean all idolatrous heathen men?
NH.
Please rephrase the question, I don't understand the meaning of this reply.Blessings
CO,
You say
“…”His (God) achievement are we”, says it all! “Context.
The idolatrous heathen behaviours are not the achievement of God.
NH.
You say “context”, yet you seem to have no understanding of what it means. Read the beginning of chapter one in the book of Ephesians, you will see to whom this epistle of Paul is written to. I'll include this chapter for you in case you can't find it in your bible.Chapter 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to all the saints who are also believers in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among the celestials, in Christ,
4 according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight,
5 in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His will,
6 for the laud of the glory of His grace, which graces us in the Beloved:
7 in Whom we are having the deliverance through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses in accord with the riches of His grace,
8 which He lavishes on us; in all wisdom and prudence
9 making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)
10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ — both that in the heavens and that on the earth —
11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,
12 that we should be for the laud of His glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ.
13 In Whom you also — on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation — in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise
14 (which is an earnest of the enjoyment of our allotment, to the deliverance of that which has been procured) for the laud of His glory!
15 Therefore, I also, on hearing of this faith of yours in the Lord Jesus, and that for all the saints,
16 do not cease giving thanks for you, making mention in my prayers
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may be giving you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the realization of Him,
18 the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, for you to perceive what is the expectation of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of the enjoyment of His allotment among the saints,
19 and what the transcendent greatness of His power for us who are believing, in accord with the operation of the might of His strength,
20 which is operative in the Christ, rousing Him from among the dead and seating Him at His right hand among the celestials,
21 up over every sovereignty and authority and power and lordship, and every name that is named, not only in this eon, but also in that which is impending:
22 and subjects all under His feet, and gives Him, as Head over all, to the ecclesia which is His body, the complement of the One completing the all in all.Remember …context, context, context. Read the whole chapter whenever you try to understand what it is saying, not just what you think it should mean.
Blessings.
NH.
Also notice in the previous post, that this chapter also gives a good description of what “God is doing”. Dosn't say much as to “what part you play” in your salvation.
Remember, …”context”.Blessings.
Hi CO,
Chapter 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to all the saints who are also believers in Christ Jesus:All are not saints and believers.
Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 31 2009,12:48) To All,
Our brother Seeking has advocated the notion that the Father took the full responsibility for our salvation. I offered him the non-trinitarian explanation of John 10:30 where Jesus said “I and the Father are one.” The non-trinitarian explanation is that the Father and the Son act as one. I agree with the non-trinitarian explanation btw. I challenged Seeking to explain how the Father had full responsibility if the Father and the Son act together as one.This is Seeking's reply:
Quote Seeking agrees to cut down a neighbors tree and takes full
responsibilty to see to the completion of the task. Seeking calls his son and says ” I have agreed to cut down the neighbors tree, let us do the job together.” Together we cut down the tree. WHO TOOK FULL RESPONSIBILTY TO GET THE JOB DONE?I pointed out on the Trinity 2 thread that this analogy is problematic for the simple reason that Seeking cuts down the tree together with his son. But Christ's Father did NOT suffer and die together with Him. Christ's Father FORSOOK him while He hung on the cross. But Seeking thinks that the mere sending of Christ by the Father means that the Father took the full responsibility for our salvation.
The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14). The key words are “to be.” The Father sent the Son TO BE the Savior of the world. So make no mistake. The Son ALONE is your Savior.
Quote He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world (1 John 2:2). The Father is NOT our Savior. Jesus ALONE is our Savior. He Himself ALONE propitiated the Father's wrath.
thinker
it seems that trying to separate out, at some kind of ultimate level, who has responsibility for salvation, would be, from a Trinitarian perspective, both unnecessary and impossible. Jesus, as to touching His godhood, is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit, they are unified not just in purpose, but at the most basic level, that of being.For example, just as Jesus could say that He will raise and resurrect His own body, and yet the Bible also says that the Father will raise Jesus from the dead, and both are true…. it is clear that both are working…. so, it seems to me, is it the case in salvation. The Father sends the Son, the Son sends the Holy Spirit….. each has slightly different roles to play, and even these roles cannot always be rigidly delineated from one another, but ultimately God is one being and is not divided.
blessings,
kenQuote (epistemaniac @ April 15 2009,00:44) Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 31 2009,12:48) To All,
Our brother Seeking has advocated the notion that the Father took the full responsibility for our salvation. I offered him the non-trinitarian explanation of John 10:30 where Jesus said “I and the Father are one.” The non-trinitarian explanation is that the Father and the Son act as one. I agree with the non-trinitarian explanation btw. I challenged Seeking to explain how the Father had full responsibility if the Father and the Son act together as one.This is Seeking's reply:
Quote Seeking agrees to cut down a neighbors tree and takes full
responsibilty to see to the completion of the task. Seeking calls his son and says ” I have agreed to cut down the neighbors tree, let us do the job together.” Together we cut down the tree. WHO TOOK FULL RESPONSIBILTY TO GET THE JOB DONE?I pointed out on the Trinity 2 thread that this analogy is problematic for the simple reason that Seeking cuts down the tree together with his son. But Christ's Father did NOT suffer and die together with Him. Christ's Father FORSOOK him while He hung on the cross. But Seeking thinks that the mere sending of Christ by the Father means that the Father took the full responsibility for our salvation.
The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14). The key words are “to be.” The Father sent the Son TO BE the Savior of the world. So make no mistake. The Son ALONE is your Savior.
Quote He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world (1 John 2:2). The Father is NOT our Savior. Jesus ALONE is our Savior. He Himself ALONE propitiated the Father's wrath.
thinker
it seems that trying to separate out, at some kind of ultimate level, who has responsibility for salvation, would be, from a Trinitarian perspective, both unnecessary and impossible. Jesus, as to touching His godhood, is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit, they are unified not just in purpose, but at the most basic level, that of being.For example, just as Jesus could say that He will raise and resurrect His own body, and yet the Bible also says that the Father will raise Jesus from the dead, and both are true…. it is clear that both are working…. so, it seems to me, is it the case in salvation. The Father sends the Son, the Son sends the Holy Spirit….. each has slightly different roles to play, and even these roles cannot always be rigidly delineated from one another, but ultimately God is one being and is not divided.
blessings,
ken
Hi KenAnother amen!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,
It is the Spirit of God in Jesus that is sent.John 14:26
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.Quote (chosenone @ April 14 2009,11:13) NH.
You say “context”, yet you seem to have no understanding of what it means. Read the beginning of chapter one in the book of Ephesians, you will see to whom this epistle of Paul is written to. I'll include this chapter for you in case you can't find it in your bible.Chapter 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to all the saints who are also believers in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among the celestials, in Christ,
4 according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight,
5 in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His will,
6 for the laud of the glory of His grace, which graces us in the Beloved:
7 in Whom we are having the deliverance through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses in accord with the riches of His grace,
8 which He lavishes on us; in all wisdom and prudence
9 making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)
10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ — both that in the heavens and that on the earth —
11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,
12 that we should be for the laud of His glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ.
13 In Whom you also — on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation — in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise
14 (which is an earnest of the enjoyment of our allotment, to the deliverance of that which has been procured) for the laud of His glory!
15 Therefore, I also, on hearing of this faith of yours in the Lord Jesus, and that for all the saints,
16 do not cease giving thanks for you, making mention in my prayers
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may be giving you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the realization of Him,
18 the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, for you to perceive what is the expectation of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of the enjoyment of His allotment among the saints,
19 and what the transcendent greatness of His power for us who are believing, in accord with the operation of the might of His strength,
20 which is operative in the Christ, rousing Him from among the dead and seating Him at His right hand among the celestials,
21 up over every sovereignty and authority and power and lordship, and every name that is named, not only in this eon, but also in that which is impending:
22 and subjects all under His feet, and gives Him, as Head over all, to the ecclesia which is His body, the complement of the One completing the all in all.Remember …context, context, context. Read the whole chapter whenever you try to understand what it is saying, not just what you think it should mean.
Blessings.
Chosenone………….Very good and clear post. Its so simple to understand , it's amazing some can't get it. IMOlove and peace to you and yours………………………..gene
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