Full responsibility

[KangarooJack]

To All,
Our brother Seeking has advocated the notion that the Father took the full responsibility for our salvation. I offered him the non-trinitarian explanation of John 10:30 where Jesus said “I and the Father are one.” The non-trinitarian explanation is that the Father and the Son act as one. I agree with the non-trinitarian explanation btw. I challenged Seeking to explain how the Father had full responsibility if the Father and the Son act together as one.

This is Seeking's reply:

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Seeking agrees to cut down a neighbors tree and takes full responsibilty to see to the completion of the task.  Seeking calls his son and says ” I have agreed to cut down the neighbors tree, let us do the job together.”  Together we cut down the tree.  WHO TOOK FULL RESPONSIBILTY TO GET THE JOB DONE?

I pointed out on the Trinity 2 thread that this analogy is problematic for the simple reason that Seeking cuts down the tree together with his son. But Christ's Father did NOT suffer and die together with Him. Christ's Father FORSOOK him while He hung on the cross. But Seeking thinks that the mere sending of Christ by the Father means that the Father took the full responsibility for our salvation.

The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14). The key words are “to be.” The Father sent the Son TO BE the Savior of the world. So make no mistake. The Son ALONE is your Savior.

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He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world (1 John 2:2).

The Father is NOT our Savior. Jesus ALONE is our Savior. He Himself ALONE propitiated the Father's wrath.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Was he forsaken as the scapegoat or quoting scripture?
Psalm 22:1
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

God is our Saviour through the Son of Man Christ Jesus
1 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

1 Timothy 2:3
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Titus 1:3
But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

Titus 2:10
Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

Titus 3:4
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
This is truly how God behaves towards His sons despite how they may feel.

Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

God's Spirit was given to Jesus, never left him and raised him.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

[NickHassan]

Hi tt,
God was IN Christ reconciling the world to Himself[2cor5]
That is unity

[942767]

Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 31 2009,12:48)

To All, Our brother Seeking has advocated the notion that the Father took the full responsibility for our salvation. I offered him the non-trinitarian explanation of John 10:30 where Jesus said “I and the Father are one.” The non-trinitarian explanation is that the Father and the Son act as one. I agree with the non-trinitarian explanation btw. I challenged Seeking to explain how the Father had full responsibility if the Father and the Son act together as one. This is Seeking's reply: Quote Seeking agrees to cut down a neighbors tree and takes full responsibilty to see to the completion of the task.  Seeking calls his son and says ” I have agreed to cut down the neighbors tree, let us do the job together.”  Together we cut down the tree.  WHO TOOK FULL RESPONSIBILTY TO GET THE JOB DONE? I pointed out on the Trinity 2 thread that this analogy is problematic for the simple reason that Seeking cuts down the tree together with his son. But Christ's Father did NOT suffer and die together with Him. Christ's Father FORSOOK him while He hung on the cross. But Seeking thinks that the mere sending of Christ by the Father means that the Father took the full responsibility for our salvation. The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14). The key words are “to be.” The Father sent the Son TO BE the Savior of the world. So make no mistake. The Son ALONE is your Savior. Quote He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world (1 John 2:2). The Father is NOT our Savior. Jesus ALONE is our Savior. He Himself ALONE propitiated the Father's wrath. thinker

Hi thethinker:

The scripture states that: “God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son…”.

God sent His Son into the world, and He allowed him to through all that he went through including his death on the cross. Also, Jesus was obeying God in all that he did, and therefore, the whole responsibility lies with the Father.

God did not die, but He did taste death in the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus stated: “He who hath seen the Father hath seen me”, and so, every thing that they did to Jesus was being done to God in that he was obeying God even unto death on the cross, and God allowed it so that even the most wicked person on earth could be reconciled to Him through the sacrifice of His Son. Jesus endured so that he could say: “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[KangarooJack]

Marty,
You state two contradictions in your post. The first is this:

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Jesus was obeying God in all that he did, and therefore, the whole responsibility lies with the Father.

This statement is a contradiction within itself. If Jesus obeyed God in all that He did then the Father cannot have the full responsibility. It would be a shared responsibility.

The second contradiction is this:

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God did not die, but He did taste death in the person of Jesus Christ.

This is a contradiction. You say that God did not die but that He “tasted” death. But to “taste” death is to die. Jesus “tasted” death for every man (Heb. 2:9). This means that He died. So for you to say that God did not die but that He “tasted” ideath in the Person of Christ is to contradict yourself.

How did the Father “taste” death in the person of Christ when He FORSOOK Christ just before He died? Please show from Scripture that the Father “tasted” death. It wa at the point of death that Jesus was forsaken by His Father. It was at that point that it all fell on Christ. Paul applied Psalm 69:9 to Jesus,

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For even Christ did not please Himself; but as it is written, “the reproaches of those who reproached You [the Father] fell on Me“ (Rom. 15:3)

The reproaches against the Father FELL ON JESUS! It was Jesus who assumed the responsibility for you.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi tT,
So as you say God did not die.
So Jesus was not God.

God was in him

[NickHassan]

Hi tt,
For even Christ did not please Himself; but as it is written, “the reproaches of those who reproached You [the Father] fell on Me” (Rom. 15:3)

So men who hated God expressed that hate towards the servants of God unto their death.

[KangarooJack]

Seeking said:

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could have as well gone on vacation and my son complete the job alone.  When I returned from vacation my neighbor would compensate me for the completion of the agreement according to the terms regarding quality of work performed, timeleness, and completeness BEACAUSE I HAD FULL RESPONSIBILITY

You had the full responsibility only in reference to your neighbor. But it was a shared responsibility in reference to your son. Please prove your theory from Scripture. Your analogy just ain't working. The Father and the Son act as one. This means that the responsibility was shared.

Paul applied Psalm 69:9 to Christ which says that it FELL ON Christ,

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For Christ did not please Himself; but as it is written, “The reproaches of those who reproached You fell on Me (Rom. 15:3)

The reproaches against the Father fell on Jesus. I wonder if non-trinitarians even understand all that Christ suffered for them. We have Marty now saying that “the Father tasted death in the person of Christ.” The Father tasted death? Come on! It makes me want to cry that you all take away from Jesus the work He has done for you. It doesn't seem to matter to non-trinitarians that Jesus is the one who suffered.

Seeking said:

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See Nick's observation regarding the Father forsaking Jesus. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Act 3:15  and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.

In the moment of His death Christ was forsaken by His Father. There is no explaining it away.

Seeking said:

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The Father took FULL RESPONSIBILITY to raise His son.

The raising of Christ from the dead is also a shared responsibility.

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Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up”….But He was speaking of the temple of His body (John 2:19-20)

Again, your theory that the Father had the full responsibility is based in select Scriptures.

thinker

[SEEKING]

Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 31 2009,02:06)

Thinker,

You opt to prove a doctrine NOWHERE contained in scripture;
not even in “select” scriptures.

You use a “select” scripture to establish mutual involvement
in the resurrection ignoring the plain statement as to who raised Jesus from the dead.

Mat 17:23 and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day.” And they were greatly distressed

Rom 6:9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.

“Raised” is written in the “passive” voice. The subject, Jesus,
is acted upon. He does not do the acting.

Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Act 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.

Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Act 2:24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

Act 3:15 and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.

Act 3:26 God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness

Act 10:40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

1Co 6:14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power.

2Co 4:14 knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle–not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead–

Eph 1:20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,

1Th 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1Pe 1:21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

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Again, your theory that the Father had the full responsibility is based in select Scriptures. thinker

Yep! Quite a large selection!!

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You had the full responsibility only in reference to your neighbor. But it was a shared responsibility in reference to your son. Please prove your theory from Scripture.

Yes, I ALONE had “full responsibility” to my neighbor. My son NEVER accepted ANY responsibility toward my neighbor. You continually refuse to show, from scripture, (new or old testament) the mention of a trinity doctrine – using your word – SPECIFICALLY. Please prove YOUR theory from scripture.

Blessings,

Seeking

[942767]

Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 31 2009,15:01)

Marty, You state two contradictions in your post. The first is this: Quote Jesus was obeying God in all that he did, and therefore, the whole responsibility lies with the Father. This statement is a contradiction within itself. If Jesus obeyed God in all that He did then the Father cannot have the full responsibility. It would be a shared responsibility. The second contradiction is this: Quote God did not die, but He did taste death in the person of Jesus Christ. This is a contradiction. You say that God did not die but that He “tasted” death. But to “taste” death is to die. Jesus “tasted” death for every man (Heb. 2:9). This means that He died. So for you to say that God did not die but that He “tasted” ideath in the Person of Christ is to contradict yourself. How did the Father “taste” death in the person of Christ when He FORSOOK Christ just before He died? Please show from Scripture that the Father “tasted” death. It wa at the point of death that Jesus was forsaken by His Father. It was at that point that it all fell on Christ. Paul applied Psalm 69:9 to Jesus, Quote For even Christ did not please Himself; but as it is written, “the reproaches of those who reproached You [the Father] fell on Me“ (Rom. 15:3) The reproaches against the Father FELL ON JESUS! It was Jesus who assumed the responsibility for you. thinker

Hi thethinker:

I fail to see any contradictions in what I have stated. Jesus obeyed the Father even unto death on the cross and he did it out of his love for God and for humanity, but without the Father Jesus does not exist and Jesus was obeying the Father, and God allowed what Jesus went through, and therefore, I see Him with the full responsibility.

God is a Spirit and is eternal, and therefore, He did not literally die, but I say he tasted death because He had to agonize in allowing His Son to suffer the death that he suffered. Don't you know that he had to personally feel every thing that His Son felt as he died?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[GeneBalthrop]

To all……if you CREATE it all you are responsible for it all. Our Heavenly Father takes (Full) responsibility for (ALL) His creation. Therefore the whole creation shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption. AS IT SAYS…IMO

love and peace to you all……………………………………………..gene

[NickHassan]

G,
You would be the judge of God?
You have already altered His word to suit your gnostic dogmas.

What next?

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick……….this is not Judging GOD, Just plain common sense should let you know that. Every time you open you mouth You are only showing you ignorance to GOD words and ACTS. This is exactly why a novice should not teach. YOUR opinions would be better served if kept to yourself , since they only show your ignorance, and we would all appreciate it here. IMO

love and peace to you and yours………………………………….gene

[SEEKING]

Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 30 2009,20:01)

This statement is a contradiction within itself. If Jesus obeyed God in all that He did then the Father cannot have the full responsibility. It would be a shared responsibility.

RESPONSIBILITY
1.The state or fact of being responsible.
2.an instance of being responsible: The responsibility for this mess is yours!
3.a particular burden of obligation upon one who is responsible: the responsibilities of authority.
4.a person or thing for which one is responsible: A child is a responsibility to its parents.
5.reliability or dependability, esp. in meeting debts or payments.

OBEDIENCE

1.the state or quality of being obedient.
2.the act or practice of obeying; dutiful or submissive compliance: Military service demands obedience from its members.
3.a sphere of authority or jurisdiction, esp. ecclesiastical.
4.Chiefly Ecclesiastical.
a.conformity to a monastic rule or the authority of a religious superior, esp. on the part of one who has vowed such conformance.
b.the rule or authority that exacts such conformance

Seeking

[GeneBalthrop]

Seeking…………as I said and you also confirm and scripture also confirms that The LORD GOD is Responsible and in control of all creation. That is why His sin Offering (Jesus the LAMB) pays for all sins. The One responsible Payed all our sin debts. Because He so loved the World that whoso ever believes on Him Should not Parish. And God having forgiven us does not hold our sins against us, and gives us repentance of Heart. IMO

peace and love to you and your…………………………..gene

[SEEKING]

Quote (Gene @ April 07 2009,12:19)

Seeking…………as I said and you also confirm and scripture also confirms that That is why His sin Offering (Jesus the LAMB) pays for all sins.And God having forgiven us does not hold our sins against us, and gives us repentance of Heart. IMO peace and love to you and your…………………………..gene

I believe we are saying the same thing, but I'm not certain.
Help me clarify please.

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The LORD GOD is Responsible and in control of all creation.

Is that Jehovah God the Father?

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The One responsible Payed all our sin debts.

I believe the one “obedient” (not responsible) paid our sin debt.

  Rom 3:25  whom God put forward as a propitiation by his  blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

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Because He so loved the World that whoso ever believes on Him Should not Parish.

While I believe Jesus loved (loves) the world also,

Joh 3:16  “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. ” Whosoever believes in him (Jesus) should not perish but have everlasting life.

Is that how you are breaking it down?  Your post was confusing to me.

Blessings,

Seeking

[NickHassan]

Quote (Gene @ April 08 2009,07:19)

Seeking…………as I said and you also confirm and scripture also confirms that The LORD GOD is Responsible and in control of all creation. That is why His sin Offering (Jesus the LAMB) pays for all sins. The One responsible Payed all our sin debts. Because He so loved the World that whoso ever believes on Him Should not Parish. And God having forgiven us does not hold our sins against us, and gives us repentance of Heart. IMO peace and love to you and your…………………………..gene

G,
You say you hold God responsible for all evil.

Why would God need to be appeased if you say He was to blame?

Where is universal forgiveness offered to men who are even ignorant of it?

No amnesty.
You must be born again

[GeneBalthrop]

Seeking … We pretty much agree , Jesus was The FATHERS Lamb (HE) sacrifices for our sins. Only GOD Can truely forgive sin and He has through Jesus' blood. There is even a scripture where it say that GOD shed His Blood, Not that GOD Has Blood or Flesh, But because Jesus totally emptied His Will to the will of the Father. Jesus' Blood is reckoned as the Fathers blood. Because the Father takes full responsibility for the forgiveness of our sins, WE are pretty much in line with each other , brother.

love and peac to you and yours……………………………………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 08 2009,09:19)

Quote (Gene @ April 08 2009,07:19) Seeking…………as I said and you also confirm and scripture also confirms that The LORD GOD is Responsible and in control of all creation. That is why His sin Offering (Jesus the LAMB) pays for all sins. The One responsible Payed all our sin debts. Because He so loved the World that whoso ever believes on Him Should not Parish. And God having forgiven us does not hold our sins against us, and gives us repentance of Heart. IMO peace and love to you and your…………………………..gene G, You say you hold God responsible for all evil. Why would God need to be appeased if you say He was to blame? Where is universal forgiveness offered to men who are even ignorant of it? No amnesty. You must be born again

Nick……….. If you understood the Sacrificial system you would understand it. But you don't so what the use of telling you others here have already and you still can't get it. O and by the way Where did i say (I) hold GOD responsible for what He does, I am in no position the Hold God to anything. God takes responsibility (HIMSELF) for all He allows and does. You are falsely trying to make me say things i never said. Nick…you only bring curses on you own Head by lying about what people say or mean. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene

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