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Terraricca…………..It certainly was not because He was Just a good Guy, His very Name is Sur Planter or Tripper up. He was sneaky and stoled His Brothers berth right. I see no (SELF)Quality for GOD to Chose HIM , GOD Chose Him because He will have Mercy on Who He will Have Mercy. Trying to skirt around what is written to Justify your false teaching of a so-called “FREE WILL” is the problem Here and I only touched on Just a few scriptures there are many many many, More that Proves Man Has (NO SUCH) thing as a “FREE WILL” But what good is it you simply twist them or ignore them. As you are with the Choosing of Jacob while ignoring the rest of what was written, Your teaching PURE GARBAGE> And only shows a self centered view. GOD Choses whom so ever (HE) WILLS to with or with out our Permissions. You don't even read where scripture say “we did not love GOD First, but He first loved Us.” IMO
gene
i never say god does not love us,
you can believe what ever you want you know that ,what really bugs you .is that you would like it to be true,many people will tell you that they believe in freewill, and very few in determinism,and intellect as Gods spirit,
but i will not prevent you to believe in your own words,you are free ,i believe in freewill no problem there.Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 17 2010,10:30) What I see you and so many other people teaching is a binding of man to a new law. You fully teach a NEW KIND of SLAVERY.
HMMM?
What was Paul teaching when he said he was a “Bondslave” and a “Prisoner” to Jesus?
What did Jesus mean when he said “whoever will come after me “let him take up “HIS CROSS” and follow him” even to the death? Mark 8:34-38
What is the purpose of “denying self” if I do not have the “Free will” to do so?
WJ
Terraricca……….I could care less what many people say, what does Scriptures Say is what counts. Nowhere in (ANY) Scripture does is say we Poses a “FREE WILL”, that is an Oxymoron. A WILL Would NOT BE a WILL if IT WERE “FREE”. your mistaking GOD allowing Us (LIBERTY) to (EXERCISE) OUR (CAPTICATED) WILLS as meaning we (HAVE) “FREE WILLS”. that is where your (CONFUSION) IS. Scripture does not speak about it because, because there is no such thing as a WILL being “FREE” NOT OURS or GOD'S WILL is FREE. GOD allows us liberty to use our captivated WILLS, Like putting an animal in a fenced yard and Letting the animal go Free giving Him Liberty to go where He wills to go and He will go where His Will takes Him, But because He has liberty to go where he wills to, has nothing to do with his WILL being FREE, The animals WILL is controlled what is (INFLUENCING) his MIND and has (LIBERTY) with in the confines He is in.
Again for the hundredth time there is no such thing as a WILL that is “FREE” , that is an OXYMORON. If you and the others chose not to believe the posted scripture for what they are saying that is your problem not ours. IMO
Quote (Gene @ Feb. 17 2010,14:48) Terraricca……….I could care less what many people say, what does Scriptures Say is what counts. Nowhere in (ANY) Scripture does is say we Poses a “FREE WILL”, that is an Oxymoron. A WILL Would NOT BE a WILL if IT WERE “FREE”.
Really! So God does not have a “WILL”? If he does is it free?We were created in his image, right?
You never addressed Adam who was not under any influence except Gods and yet he “Freely” Chose to disobey YHWH's command and ate the fruit with his eyes wide open in the transgression!
WJ
gene
you say scriptures count and you have not shown ONE SCRIPTURE TO BACK YOUR VIEW
you answer with your opinions not scriptures,you lies in your own quotes
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 18 2010,02:30) NOW Christianity has established a NEW LAW, now people must through their own will accept Jesus Christ as their savior or else.
Hi Jodi,First Gene and now you, Thanks for you also PROVING “Free Will” for everybody here!
Matt. 8:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more,
that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.NO “Free Will” is a bunch of garbage!
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgTo all FREE WILLER'S………….Why can't you produce (ONE) scripture that say we Have a (FREE) WILL. Surely such an important subject would have been spoken of in scriptures by GOD or His true servants, show one place where GOD says we have a (FREE WILL) or better yet Show one scripture where GOD Says that HE has a “FREE” WILL. Some of you believe it, but produce (NO) Scripture dealing with the subject of a “FREE WILL”. Is it the Blind leading the blind ? No one even commits on all the scriptures we have produces either, why is that? Ignoring posted scriptures showing we do not have “FREE” Will is what Pride filled People cant stand. Jesus sure did not put his trust in (HIS) WILL at all, “THE SON OF MAN CAME (NOT) TO DO (HIS) WILL , BUT THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT HIM”, Jesus didn't think His will was important in the salvation process and He even went so far as to put it to death. That is all we ask is that ONE SCRIPTURE says GOD gave us a “FREE” WILL. Come on you bible gurus post it , don't try to twist up scriptures to try to make it say something it does not really say. IMO
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 18 2010,06:57) Quote (Gene @ Feb. 17 2010,14:48) Terraricca……….I could care less what many people say, what does Scriptures Say is what counts. Nowhere in (ANY) Scripture does is say we Poses a “FREE WILL”, that is an Oxymoron. A WILL Would NOT BE a WILL if IT WERE “FREE”.
Really! So God does not have a “WILL”? If he does is it free?We were created in his image, right?
You never addressed Adam who was not under any influence except Gods and yet he “Freely” Chose to disobey YHWH's command and ate the fruit with his eyes wide open in the transgression!
WJ
WJ…………No God's will is not a “FREE” WILL either. Have you not read this. “FOR GOD DOES ALL THINGS AFTER THE (COUNSEL) OF HIS WILL. Get it?, GOD HAS A (COUNSELED) WILL NOT A “FREE” ONE. The term “FREE WILL” IS A OXYMORON. No such thing exists as a “FREE” WILL. ONLY INFLUENCED WILL EXIST IF YOUR REMOVE (INFLUENCE) THEN THERE WOULD BE (NO) WILL AT ALL. Think about it WJ.Terrarccia……..Show (ONE) word in what you quoted that deals with a “FREE” WILL, In fact not one even has the word Free will in them. Except the one you tried to us concerning a freewill offering, which does not deal at all with us have a so-called “FREE” Will in us. Your just holding on to false religious teachings that you presume is right , but in fact is completely against the words of GOD and Jesus. Your presumed “FREE” WILL has nothing to do with your salvation or the salvation of anyone. GOD'S Will (ALONE) is What brings Salvation and determines it. We do not “chose” GOD , He choses US, and by (HIS) GRACE Saves US. And if i did not even commit on them how could i twist them . Christ said “not everyone that says Lord Lord as you think you do. IMO
Quote (Gene @ Feb. 18 2010,12:55) To all FREE WILLER'S………….Why can't you produce (ONE) scripture that say we Have a (FREE) WILL. Surely such an important subject would have been spoken of in scriptures by GOD or His true servants, show one place where GOD says we have a (FREE WILL) or better yet Show one scripture where GOD Says that HE has a “FREE” WILL. Some of you believe it, but produce (NO) Scripture dealing with the subject of a “FREE WILL”. Is it the Blind leading the blind ? No one even commits on all the scriptures we have produces either, why is that? Ignoring posted scriptures showing we do not have “FREE” Will is what Pride filled People cant stand. Jesus sure did not put his trust in (HIS) WILL at all, “THE SON OF MAN CAME (NOT) TO DO (HIS) WILL , BUT THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT HIM”, Jesus didn't think His will was important in the salvation process and He even went so far as to put it to death. That is all we ask is that ONE SCRIPTURE says GOD gave us a “FREE” WILL. Come on you bible gurus post it , don't try to twist up scriptures to try to make it say something it does not really say. IMO
Hi Gene,It doesn't matter how many verses anybody produces you have already have your mind made up!
I offer Proof of God's existence to Stuart and he does the same thing as you.
I even proved “Free Will” using your own words! HOW STUBBORN WE(Gene and Jodi) ARE!
NOWHERE does it say 'NO Free Will' AS IS YOUR FAULTY ASSERTION! Why don't you TRY to discredit these verses as well!1Cor.16:12 As touching our brother Apollos, I greatly desired him to come unto you with the brethren:
but “HIS WILL” was not at all to come at this time; but he will come when he shall have convenient time.Lev:22:29: And when ye will offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving unto the LORD, offer it AT YOUR OWN WILL.
Josh:24:15: And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom YE WILL serve;
whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood,
or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.Jn:5:40: And YE WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life.
Gen:34:15: But in this will we consent unto you: If “YE WILL” be as we be, that every male of you be circumcised;
Ex:19:5: Now therefore, if “YE WILL” obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant,
then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:Lev:26:14: But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
Lev:26:23: And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
Lev:26:27: And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
Num:32:20: And Moses said unto them, If ye will do this thing, if ye will go armed before the LORD to war,
Num:32:23: But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the LORD: and be sure your sin will find you out.
Deut:11:28: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God,
but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.1Sam:12:14: If ye will fear the LORD, and serve him, and obey his voice, and not rebel against
the commandment of the LORD, then shall both ye and also the king that reigneth over you continue following the LORD your God:1Sam:12:15: But if ye will not obey the voice of the LORD, but rebel against the commandment of the LORD,
then shall the hand of the LORD be against you, as it was
against your fathers.Deut:31:29: For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves,
and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days;
because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.Quote (Gene @ Feb. 18 2010,14:19) Terrarccia……..Show (ONE) word in what you quoted that deals with a “FREE” WILL, In fact not one even has the word Free will in them. Except the one you tried to us concerning a freewill offering, which does not deal at all with us have a so-called “FREE” Will in us. Your just holding on to false religious teachings that you presume is right , but in fact is completely against the words of GOD and Jesus. Your presumed “FREE” WILL has nothing to do with your salvation or the salvation of anyone. GOD'S Will (ALONE) is What brings Salvation and determines it. We do not “chose” GOD , He choses US, and by (HIS) GRACE Saves US. And if i did not even commit on them how could i twist them . Christ said “not everyone that says Lord Lord as you think you do. IMO
Hi Gene,Do you think it wise to make up your own doctrines?
Heb:10:26: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment
and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.Quote (Gene @ Feb. 18 2010,04:13) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 17 2010,12:44) I think that trying to convince people that there is no free will is in itself an oxymoron. Trying to convince someone of anything requires the ability to reason and the ability to choose what to believe.
So why waste your time convincing people that there is no free will. It makes me wonder if deep down you believe in free will, otherwise why even have this conversation?
T8………The only oxymoron is that a WILL is FREE, A WILL can NOT be FREE, or It simply would not be a WILL> the very word WILL shows it is not FREE. There exist no such thing as a “FREE WILL”.
Are you saying that our will doesn't exist and there is only God's will. Because I seem to remember Jesus saying, “not my will but your will”. In other words his will was free to choose his own or his Father's and he chose his Father's will.So it appears that Jesus willed not to drink the cup, but he also willed to a greater degree to do the Father's will. How was he not free to choose?
Quote (Gene @ Feb. 18 2010,13:01) WJ…………No God's will is not a “FREE” WILL either. Have you not read this. “FOR GOD DOES ALL THINGS AFTER THE (COUNSEL) OF HIS WILL. Get it?, GOD HAS A (COUNSELED) WILL NOT A “FREE” ONE. The term “FREE WILL” IS A OXYMORON. No such thing exists as a “FREE” WILL. ONLY INFLUENCED WILL EXIST IF YOUR REMOVE (INFLUENCE) THEN THERE WOULD BE (NO) WILL AT ALL. Think about it WJ.
Are you not just playing with words?Influence simply gives us the options to which we choose.
If God influences me in my Spirit and the Devil in my flesh and mind, then am I not free to choose which influence I will obey?Quote (t8 @ Feb. 18 2010,18:45) Quote (Gene @ Feb. 18 2010,04:13) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 17 2010,12:44) I think that trying to convince people that there is no free will is in itself an oxymoron. Trying to convince someone of anything requires the ability to reason and the ability to choose what to believe.
So why waste your time convincing people that there is no free will. It makes me wonder if deep down you believe in free will, otherwise why even have this conversation?
T8………The only oxymoron is that a WILL is FREE, A WILL can NOT be FREE, or It simply would not be a WILL> the very word WILL shows it is not FREE. There exist no such thing as a “FREE WILL”.
Are you saying that our will doesn't exist and there is only God's will. Because I seem to remember Jesus saying, “not my will but your will”. In other words his will was free to choose his own or his Father's and he chose his Father's will.So it appears that Jesus willed not to drink the cup, but he also willed to a greater degree to do the Father's will. How was he not free to choose?
Hi T8,Excellent points! Why do people choose to ignore the obvious? I guess it is yet another example of “Free Will”!
Your Friend
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orghi t8
our fight is not with the flesh but with the spirits of this world ,and our will to do Gods will.
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 18 2010,15:51) Quote (Gene @ Feb. 18 2010,12:55) To all FREE WILLER'S………….Why can't you produce (ONE) scripture that say we Have a (FREE) WILL. Surely such an important subject would have been spoken of in scriptures by GOD or His true servants, show one place where GOD says we have a (FREE WILL) or better yet Show one scripture where GOD Says that HE has a “FREE” WILL. Some of you believe it, but produce (NO) Scripture dealing with the subject of a “FREE WILL”. Is it the Blind leading the blind ? No one even commits on all the scriptures we have produces either, why is that? Ignoring posted scriptures showing we do not have “FREE” Will is what Pride filled People cant stand. Jesus sure did not put his trust in (HIS) WILL at all, “THE SON OF MAN CAME (NOT) TO DO (HIS) WILL , BUT THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT HIM”, Jesus didn't think His will was important in the salvation process and He even went so far as to put it to death. That is all we ask is that ONE SCRIPTURE says GOD gave us a “FREE” WILL. Come on you bible gurus post it , don't try to twist up scriptures to try to make it say something it does not really say. IMO
Hi Gene,It doesn't matter how many verses anybody produces you have already have your mind made up!
I offer Proof of God's existence to Stuart and he does the same thing as you.
I even proved “Free Will” using your own words! HOW STUBBORN WE(Gene and Jodi) ARE!
NOWHERE does it say 'NO Free Will' AS IS YOUR FAULTY ASSERTION! Why don't you TRY to discredit these verses as well!1Cor.16:12 As touching our brother Apollos, I greatly desired him to come unto you with the brethren:
but “HIS WILL” was not at all to come at this time; but he will come when he shall have convenient time.Lev:22:29: And when ye will offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving unto the LORD, offer it AT YOUR OWN WILL.
Josh:24:15: And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom YE WILL serve;
whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood,
or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.Jn:5:40: And YE WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life.
Gen:34:15: But in this will we consent unto you: If “YE WILL” be as we be, that every male of you be circumcised;
Ex:19:5: Now therefore, if “YE WILL” obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant,
then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:Lev:26:14: But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
Lev:26:23: And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
Lev:26:27: And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
Num:32:20: And Moses said unto them, If ye will do this thing, if ye will go armed before the LORD to war,
Num:32:23: But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the LORD: and be sure your sin will find you out.
Deut:11:28: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God,
but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.1Sam:12:14: If ye will fear the LORD, and serve him, and obey his voice, and not rebel against
the commandment of the LORD, then shall both ye and also the king that reigneth over you continue following the LORD your God:1Sam:12:15: But if ye will not obey the voice of the LORD, but rebel against the commandment of the LORD,
then shall the hand of the LORD be against you, as it was
against your fathers.Deut:31:29: For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves,
and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days;
because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.
Ed J,Neither I or Gene have ever said that man does NOT have a will, he most certainly does have a will. Jesus denied his will and followed the will of God. Did he do that by choice, YES, we have also said that he did it through choice. But what we are saying is that God CAUSED that choice, man did not. Jesus said of his own self he could do nothing, he did what His Father showed him. What God GAVE Jesus was an influence GREATER and STRONGER than man's influences.
The scriptures you posted reflect man not obeying the law. God specifically knew that it was impossible for man to obey the law. The law was given to show man's weakness.
The will that you were speaking of was not a will that God expected to be able to follow the law.
1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
Jesus had to DENY his will to follow God. Jesus did not have a free will that he needed to cause to choose God, he had a will that was chained to serving his body that he needed to fully deny.
The “will” in the scriptures you posted was INCAPABLE of following the law. God's whole point of giving the law to Israel was to expose the weakness of man's own will.
Can you guys even make any sense? The same will that you say we need to deny is the same one you say we have the freedom therein to choose God. So which is it? Do we deny it, or do WE CAUSE it to choose God?
The spirit in man, the will in man, CANNOT please God, nor choose God.
Once again the problem I believe stems around the false belief that NOW is the calling of ALL into the Spirit of God. This is simply just not true, and if it were our God would be a pathetic failure. Shall we really believe that man's influence to serve himself is greater for millions of people, then God's influence to lead us to serve Him?
People reject the Father and His Son because they have yet to be CAUSED by the Father to come into the truth.
Ezekiel 36:27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
IMO what I see in this debate is a SERIOUS lack of Faith in the Power and abilities of YHWH, and an unsightly confidence in th
e SELF that is just truly disgraceful.Quote (Jodi Lee @ Feb. 19 2010,04:11) IMO what I see in this debate is a SERIOUS lack of Faith in the Power and abilities of YHWH, and an unsightly confidence in the SELF that is just truly disgraceful.
Hi Jodi,Do you think it wise to make up your own non-Biblical doctrines?
Leviticus 22:29: And when ye will offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving unto the LORD,
offer it AT YOUR OWN WILL.Heb. 10:26: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment
and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.2 Cor. 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted,
and in the day of salvation have I succored thee: behold,
now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Hebrews 3:7 Wherefore (as the HolySpirit saith, To day if ye will hear His voice,
Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:Luke 8:11…13 Now the parable is this: The seed is The (HolySpirit) Word of God.
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy;
and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 “is” [The Bible's Center], the “[smallest chapter]” of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgJodi
if your will is tampered with then you have none,God calls trough Christ all men ,and that is to give all men his GRACE,but you have to wanted,
God does not cause you to choose,but wen you go to him ,now you have of your own freewill given your live to him to do his will not yours,
so it is now Gods total right to dispose of you as he pleases,and we know it is for are best interestthis is why at the end it will be ;all be in God, this way the ADVERSARY (SATAN) will be destroyed
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