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Quote (Gene @ Feb. 11 2010,11:27) WJ………Who says that we are not held responsible for our actions, Your not getting it, If our wills drive us to commit a crime or sin of any kind that is US that did It, But a so-called “FREE WILL” has nothing to do with it, it was a (CAPTIVATED WILL) that committed that sin our Wills are held captive by what Most influences us. That is why it is said He came to set the (CAPTIVES FREE), free of What a captivated WILL. What do you think Paul meant when He said “I find no good thing in my flesh, because to (WILL) is (PRESENT) with me. What do you think he meant by that WJ. Think about it. peace and love………………gene
Gene,We are in agreement on this one. The will of the sinner is in BONDAGE to sin. It is not free. The will of the Christian is LED or INFLUENCED by the Spirit. We may still resist the Spirit but only if He allows.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 11 2010,12:49) I am a little surprised that a man of your learning must be taught that the first part of the “Lord's prayer” is doxological. thinker
JackWhy the Patronizing remark?
I haven't even discussed the Lords Prayer. Are you trying to say that Jesus did not have the free will to do as he willed?
I thought he was God in the flesh?
Why didn't you address this point…
Quench not the Spirit. 1 Thess 5:19
Greek for “Quench”, Strong's G4570 – sbennymi
1) to extinguish, quench
a) of fire or things on fire
1) to be quenched, to go out
b) metaph. to quench, to suppress, stifle
1) of divine influence
The word sbennymi is in the “Present Tense“, the “Active voice” and “Imperative Mood“.
Present Tense
The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense.
Active voice
The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.
Imperative Mood
The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command to “the hearer to perform a certain action” by the order and authority of the one commanding. Thus, Jesus' phrase, “Repent ye, and believe the gospel” (Mk.1:15) is not at all an “invitation,” but an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearers.
The Greek text shows that the believer does the acting here, meaning that we can choose not to submit to the Divine influence of the Spirit!
Blessings WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 11 2010,12:53)
We may still resist the Spirit but only if He allows.
JackSo tell us why would God allow us to resist the Spirit if he can keep us from resisting his Spirit?
The quote I gave you above is proof that we are the one doing the acting in resisting the Divine influence of his Spirit!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 10 2010,13:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2010,05:17) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 10 2010,12:26) WorshippingJesus said: Quote I can freely choose to walk in the Spirit or not to!
Keith,
You are always led by the Spirit or you are not a son of God. You cannot resist the Spirit unless He allows it. But you are still accountable.thinker
JackIf I am always led by the Spirit then I would be without sin!
Are you without sin Jack?
Blessings WJ
Keith,Paul taught that ALL Christians “walk according to the Spirit.”
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
All Christians are led by the Spirit (vs. 14) and they walk in the Spirit (vs. 4). This does not imply a sinless walk.
Jack
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom 8:12, 13Do you see that Paul is saying that if they live after the flesh they will die but if through the Spirit they mortify the deeds of the flesh they will live?
That is their choice to follow after the Spirit or the flesh!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 12 2010,05:14) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 11 2010,12:49) I am a little surprised that a man of your learning must be taught that the first part of the “Lord's prayer” is doxological. thinker
JackWhy the Patronizing remark?
I haven't even discussed the Lords Prayer. Are you trying to say that Jesus did not have the free will to do as he willed?
I thought he was God in the flesh?
Why didn't you address this point…
Quench not the Spirit. 1 Thess 5:19
Greek for “Quench”, Strong's G4570 – sbennymi
1) to extinguish, quench
a) of fire or things on fire
1) to be quenched, to go out
b) metaph. to quench, to suppress, stifle
1) of divine influence
The word sbennymi is in the “Present Tense“, the “Active voice” and “Imperative Mood“.
Present Tense
The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense.
Active voice
The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.
Imperative Mood
The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command to “the hearer to perform a certain action” by the order and authority of the one commanding. Thus, Jesus' phrase, “Repent ye, and believe the gospel” (Mk.1:15) is not at all an “invitation,” but an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearers.
The Greek text shows that the believer does the acting here, meaning that we can choose not to submit to the Divine influence of the Spirit!
Blessings WJ
Keith,My mistake. I thought you had referred to the Lord's prayer which you didn't.
When did I ever suggest that we don't do the acting? I simply said that the Spirit may “allow” us to resist Him.
We are the Lord's sheep. He allows us to wander but only so far. In my estimation you are suggesting that we keep ourselves by our own power.
I apologize for the patronizing remark.
Jack
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 11 2010,21:55) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 11 2010,12:08) Quote (Gene @ Feb. 11 2010,15:54) ED J………Ok….> I would say you will find out as you experience life My Child, As we all will, only GOD knows the end from the beginning We are not given that ability. We are all HIS workmanship created for his purposes my son. peace and love……………gene
Hi Gene,What if the child asks…
Does God want me to be a Preacher?
Does God want me to be a Teacher?
Does God want me to have a big family?How can I know for certain what God wants for my life?
These are more questions for you to answer.God bless
Ed J
God wants only one thing from you and that is for you to be righteous as he is righteous. If you do that and do what seems best to you then the rest will fall into place as God will open and shut doors for you.In other words:
God created a mind within you and gave you advisers in your life to resolve such dilemmas. After weighing the factors involved and deciding what path seems best to you take that path. God may then choose to place obstacles in your path to test your heart or he may choose to divert you to another path but whatever happens always keep your eye on the prize of being righteous as he is righteous.
Hi Kerwin,It was an exercise to illustrate we do indeed have “Free Will”.
I'm glad you were aware of my tactic! If everything is already
determined then there must be answers to those questions!
In the absence of answers: WE get a choice in every matter!Free Will: A voluntary decision.
Gene is defining “Free Will” by another definition?God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgPS. Adam has in essence agreed with us!
Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 11 2010,22:05) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 11 2010,21:44) Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 10 2010,20:42) I wonder always which is wide gate whether Christianity or Judaism? Even in this forum 'Myth of Free Will' is the widely accepted by members of this forum. So think over which is the wide gate.
I do not know how you definite free will. I do know when I use the term free will that it is not the same definition Gene chooses to use. I assure you God does not make our decisions though he does put us to the test.You seem to fail to realize there are three major teachings on the matter of determinism vs. free will. Choosenone follow the hard determinism line and others follow libertarianism but I follow the third way which believes that we have free will but God created us and set in place those things and events that would test us knowing full well in advance what we would choose.
I would also agree with you brother Kerwin.
Hi Adam,We should all strive for agreement!…
1Cor:1:10: Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you;
but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.God bless you brother!
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (kerwin @ Feb. 11 2010,22:35) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 11 2010,17:09) kerwin you right in what you are saying if you chose to follow God pad he will help you ,
but as for temptation ??Jas 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
Jas 1:14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
Jas 1:16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers.God does not test that way ,what happen is that God remove his protection and let you go on your own and see what you do,look at JOB,but always like you say focus on the price .
I believe you are misunderstanding James. God does test the heart and he tells you he does but his motives are not the motives of Satan who does the tempting. God tests you with the hope you will succeed while Satan wants you to fail.An example of what I mean is in Deuteronomy 13:3
Deuteronomy 13:3(NIV) reads:
Quote you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Another example is when God tested used Satan to test Job.
So James is correct that God does not test us with evil but rather tests our heart by allowing Satan to test us with evil.
Elsewhere we are taught God will not allow us to be tempted above our ability to resist.
Quote (Gene @ Feb. 12 2010,02:38) Kerwin ……..You present a GOD of Chance, not a GOD of Definite Purpose, So your say God simply throws out on the earth and it's up to us to figure it out and choose by our So-called FREE WILL, what to do or if we will do What He say , He simply sits back and watches which way we shall go and the way we (Chose) determines our destiny. Pure garbage , GOD did not leave it up to US to figure our our Salvation By our (OWN) non Existent “FREE WILL”. there are hundreds of scriptures that disagree with that perception. God Took and Active Role in Our Salvation Process, despite our Lack of Proper so-call “FREE WILL” Choices. peace and Love………..gene
Kerwin AND Gene,
Point #1: We are truly “Put to the test”, but it is satan that does the testing (with God's OK).
Point# 2: God already knows how we will choose, this is the part Gene is certain of.
Point #3: The reason we are put to the Test: For public display!
Meaning that we become a spectacle for the Angels and all others
as PROOF of what God already KNEW we would choose “Free Will”!God bless you all,
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orghi kerwin
we can control our will;1Co 7:37 But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing.
all
1Co 7:37 But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing.
we can control our will so we have a choise and free to do it.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 12 2010,05:14) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 11 2010,12:49) I am a little surprised that a man of your learning must be taught that the first part of the “Lord's prayer” is doxological. thinker
JackWhy the Patronizing remark?
I haven't even discussed the Lords Prayer. Are you trying to say that Jesus did not have the free will to do as he willed?
Blessings WJ
Hi Kieth,Of course there is “Free Will”!
Just because there is influence on our “Wills”,
does NOT take away our “FREEDOM” to CHOSE!Freedom to chose: IS “Free Will”!
No “Free will” is a bunch of garbage!God bless you Kieth!
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgNote: The usage of satan's 'title' in Jack's sarcastic remark; Kieth?
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 12 2010,14:29) hi kerwin we can control our will;1Co 7:37 But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will,
and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing.
Hi Terraricca,You asked me to join in, so I have!
You have produced a Good verse here…1Cor.7:37 Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity,
but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 11 2010,22:36) hi kerwin
i do not understand were i misunderstand James
Dt 13:1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder,
Dt 13:2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,”
Dt 13:3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.this is about not fallowing false prophets.
Following a false prophet is an act of evil therefore the person being tested is also being tempted by evil.It is like a cartoon with an angel purchased on one shoulder and a devil on the other. The angel urges you not to take the lure of sin while the devil urges you to byte.
It is not the situation that James speaks of but rather the urge to do evil.
God sets up the test by allowing the false prophet to come before a person but it is Satan that urges the person listen to the false prophet.
With Job the situation is similar with God allowing disaster to happen to Job and Satan urging Job to curse God.
I use the New International version where James uses the clause “dragged away and enticed” instead of the word “urge”.
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 12 2010,09:29) hi kerwin we can control our will;1Co 7:37 But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing.
I do not disagree with you. My point is that determinism and free will are not in opposition with one another when God is involved.1) God is all knowing so he knows everything about the future, past, and present. You simply surprise him. Some say God blinds himself but that sounds like an unwise action. If you were driving down the highway would you drive blind or with sight.
2) God is all powerful so he can do anything he wants as long as he is not doing evil. So setting events up beforehand is nothing to him. He can even determine the best setup each and everyone of us and then arrange things as he sees fit.
3) God is our creator so he created every part of us even that part that chooses the way it does.
Some may argue that point 3 eliminates free will but I disagree since free will is still choosing according to our own “desires”.
To All………the question is not, do we have WILLS, we definitely DO. The question (IS) are they (FREE) or not. I maintain they are (NOT) Free at ALL, But (INFLUENCED) Wills. Because there EXISTS NO SUCH THING AS A “FREE” WILL. So in order to understand this we must understand what the word “FREE” truly means. Free means to exist in a state without (ANY) Influences , No such state exists with regards to a Will. Not man nor GOD, all Will contain influences and acts on the (GREATEST) of those influences. The very word, WILL itself shows us that, it is being influenced or it simply would Not be a WILL. Wills involve a determined desire that produces an outcome. They are Far from FREE. Many are getting LIBERTY or FREEDOM to (EXERCISE) THOSE (INFLUENCED WILLS), with the word “FREE WILL”. Scripture does not show that any so-called “FREE” Will exists. But shows WILLS exist in a state of being held Captive by our Thoughts.
No one here has proven differently by any supportive scriptures yet produced.
Kerwin……..You are right in regards to GOD setting up situations in our lives, to prove us, I have had that happen to me before. Once when i was in business as an Electrical Contractor, I had a situation come up that at the time I had no idea GOD Hand was involved until later it became very obvious. I had bid a Job that required a Special large 1200 amp Electrical 3 phase 4 wire service it was quite expensive around 10,000.00 Dollars, it was for a church, and the Pastor said it would take about 30 day to raise the money needed , so I ask the supply house if they could hold the price for thirty days, He said thy would, so within the thirty days the pastor of the church called and said He had the money needed a told me to go ahead and order the service Panel. When i went to the Supply house and told them to go ahead and order it , They informed me it would be another Two thousand Dollars for it. I informed them that i had entered into a contract with the Church for it and could not go back and ask for more money from them. But they refused to lower the price to the original quote, so I became furious with them and said I would no longer do any business with them again, and went storming out and When i came back to the office , I told my secretary what had happened, and said i will have to Just take the loss and order it from another supplier which was about two thousand dollars more, I had no sooner told Her that when the Phone rang and another electrical contractor who I never knew wanted to talk with Me , He informed me that he had Heard that i Bought used Eclectically equipment from a friend, and He had some He wanted to sell, I ask him what it was, and He said a 1200 Hundred amp electrical service Panel which he had ordered for a Job and the owner had went bankrupt, and He has it sitting at the site it was brand New and never been installed, It was even better then the one I had bid on because it was an Outdoor service instead of an indoor one that i had bid. So I ask him what He wanted for it and he said 2700.00 Dollars. Now the odds of that ever happening accidentally would be One in a BILLION . That service panel Had be sitting there months, before My situation happened. I earnestly believe GOD did that to prove my integrity. if i would keep my the word of my bid or not. And i would have even if it cost me another 2,000.00 dollars more. Then GOD gave me the blessing. So I do believe GOD sets up situations in our lives to try us and test our resolves It gives us courage to continue to do those things that are right also, and He rewards us for doing what is right.
Some would say, see that was to test your “FREE” WILL, but no it was not, GOD already knew what i Would DO, It was to encourage me to continue to do what was right in GOD'S EYES, and Not the way of the World.
I maintain there is (NO) Such Thing as a “FREE” WILL, but (ONLY) INFLUENCED WILLS that are allowed Liberty or Freedom to chose it's (INFLUENCED DESIRES), by GOD. But in the end ONLY ONE WILL will be DONE and THAT IS GOD”S WILL> IMO
peace and love to you all…………………..gene
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 12 2010,10:18) Does God want me to be a Preacher?
Does God want me to be a Teacher?
Does God want me to have a big family?How can I know for certain what God wants for my life?
These are more questions for you to answer.God bless
Ed J[/quote]
God wants only one thing from you and that is for you to be righteous as he is righteous. If you do that and do what seems best to you then the rest will fall into place as God will open and shut doors for you.In other words:
God created a mind within you and gave you advisers in your life to resolve such dilemmas. After weighing the factors involved and deciding what path seems best to you take that path. God may then choose to place obstacles in your path to test your heart or he may choose to divert you to another path but whatever happens always keep your eye on the prize of being righteous as he is righteous.[/quote]
Hi Kerwin,It was an exercise to illustrate we do indeed have “Free Will”.
I'm glad you were aware of my tactic! If everything is already
determined then there must be answers to those questions!
In the absence of answers: WE get a choice in every matter!Free Will: A voluntary decision.
Gene is defining “Free Will” by another definition?
ED J………..Your illustration has nothing to do with “FREE” WILLS . asking does GOD want me to be a this or that. GOD has called many to be Preachers, teachers, Prophets, Saviors, Priests and on and on it GOD. He has predestined many from Berth as In the case of Cyrus , John the Baptist, Jesus, Jeremiah the Prophet MOSES and on and on it goes. God read the first chapter of Jeremiah and tell us where a “FREE” Will Choice, was involved there or the Writings about Cyrus. Even Jesus' life was not a “FREE” WILL life, FOR GOD WORKS (IN) US (BOTH) TO (WILL) AND DO OF (HIS) GOOD PLEASURE. What So-called “FREE” Willer's are saying is that they by NO outside Influences, they decide by (THEIR) OWN “FREE WILLS” what they will become and their own outcome. PURE GARBAGE. NO “FREE” WILL EXISTS.
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