Free Will?

[Elizabeth]

Quote (Gene @ Feb. 07 2010,12:41)

Gorge……None of what you use as an example deals with a “FREE” WILL, but a will influenced by wanting to live. Nothing “FREE” About it. EVEN GOD'S WILL ITSELF IS (NOT) A FREE WILL. ” FOR GOD DOES (ALL) THINGS AFTER THE (COUNSEL) OF HIS WILL”, Get it,  even God himself exercises a (COUNSELED) Will not a “FREE WILL”. The only way a WILL could Possibly be “FREE” is if there were (NO) INFLUENCES) influencing it, no Such thing exists, if it did it would (NOT) be  a WILL, but a random Choice or chance. Everything that exists in Life is the result of CAUSE and EFFECT, and the Prime Mover is GOD HIMSELF, Human PRIDE HATES that Thought because it destory's  their own Self SALVATION WORKS they think they HAVE, And as a result do not put their WILL to DEATH, but fool themselves into thinking their righteousness is from themselves by the so-call “FREE WILL” Choices . Man is (NOT) the author and finisher of salvation GOD (ONLY) IS. OUR WILLS have nothing to do with IT , in fact Jesus said “THY KINGDOM COME THY (WILL) BE DONE ” Notice he did not say anything about HIS Will being done. Jesus Knew only ONE WILL counts and that Is GOD the FATHERS WILL>  In fact he put (HIS WILL) to death. So much fro “FREE WILL” Salvation .

I think, rather then debating will, maybe we should define what is “FREE”?

Georg

[GeneBalthrop]

Georg………The word “FREE” means FREE of (ANY) INFLUENCE of (ANY) KIND, either in our minds or outside them. That is why there is no Such thing as a “FREE WILL”, either GOD'S WILL or Mans Will, neither is a “FREE WILL”. We are being (CAUSED) to Chose and act by past associations. Just because we are given liberty to use our (INFLUENCED WILLS) by no means means they are truly “FREE” in fact they are captivated wills held captive by past associations. Paul understood that when He said “There was no good thing in his flesh, because to (WILL) was PRESENT”. Our Wills show our captivity to the influences (IN) Us. If this influence is of GOD it is greater then that thats in the World and we will chose the things of GOD. “FOR YOU ARE SAVED BY (GRACE) AND THAT (NOT) OF YOURSELVES, IT IS A GIFT FROM GOD”.

PEACE AND LOVE TO YOU AND IRENE…………………..gene

[gollamudi]

Quote (Gene @ Feb. 08 2010,14:58)

Georg………The word “FREE” means FREE of (ANY) INFLUENCE of (ANY) KIND, either in our minds or outside them.  That is why there is no Such thing as a “FREE WILL”, either GOD'S WILL or Mans Will,  neither is a “FREE WILL”. We are being (CAUSED) to Chose and act by  past associations. Just because we are given liberty to use our (INFLUENCED WILLS) by no means means they are truly “FREE” in fact they are captivated wills held captive by past associations.  Paul understood that when He said “There was no good thing in his flesh, because to (WILL) was PRESENT”. Our Wills show our captivity to the influences (IN) Us. If this influence is of GOD it is greater then that thats in the World and we will chose the things of GOD.  “FOR YOU ARE SAVED BY (GRACE) AND THAT (NOT) OF YOURSELVES, IT IS A GIFT FROM GOD”. PEACE AND LOVE TO YOU AND IRENE…………………..gene

Amen to that post brother Gene. I hope this will answer brother Kerwin's query to me. Choices once influenced by somebody or some thing they are not so free as many think here.

Love and peace
Adam

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Gene,
I always wonder how you are not fed up answering people's repeated queries and their negations on your strong reasons on 'Myth of Free Will'. I hope our brothers Ed J and Terraricca will realise these honest attempts of yours.

peace and love to you
Adam

[terraricca]

gene
is this not admiting freewill in the bounderies of our creation?????????
While GOD gives us Liberty to a Point to exercise our (influenced) WILLS on earth, HIS is the (ONLY) WILL that will ultimately Be DONE. Jesus was not doing His Will but the FATHERS Will, that is

[terraricca]

gene

Christ was doing God will ,out of his freewill.
Satan was doing his selves will ,out of his freewill.

both are and were in heaven,before the father.

two influences ??? i only see one ,influence that is God ,were was the influence of Satan ??

[terraricca]

goll

think about first .

Group: Members
Posts: 1698
Joined: Oct. 2009 Posted: Feb. 08 2010,18:20

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gene

Christ was doing God will ,out of his freewill.
Satan was doing his selves will ,out of his freewill.

both are and were in heaven,before the father.

two influences i only see one ,influence that is God ,were was the influence of Satan ??

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[terraricca]

georg

no need to debate WILL ;gene determinism is glued to his head and mind ,it has become is fundamental footing for his believe,so it is his trap door.

Gene version looks like;freedom would be slavery by influence will of God.

Group: Regular Members
Posts: 3067
Joined: Feb. 2009 Posted: Feb. 08 2010,05:56

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Terraricca………..If that is all you have to support Your False teachings of a FREE WILLS that is pathetic at best. The Free Will offering mentioned in Lev 22:18, has nothing to do with OUR so-called “FREE WILLS”. If that is all you have got to bolster you false belief system of SELF CHOICE BY A “FREE” WILL , YOU HAVE NO ARGUMENT AT ALL. Scripture does not support you at all in your assumptions. The person Willed on HIS OWN to give the free will Offering, “Free” there meaning it was not required by LAW. He was at liberty (if) He willed to to give it, you need to try to stick to the context of what is being said, instead of making all kinds of assumptions and dig and scratch for some vague scripture and try to make it fit you assumptions. Even GOD HIMSELF DOES NOT HAVE A FREE WILL, as i have shown and quoted many times , but you just continue to ignore posted scriptures to fit you own dogmas. IMO
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no will,no responsibility's,no freedom,no freewill,all determined by slavery to Gods will,and God is a slave to his own will;

this way of thinking is from the devil,again just like in Adam case.

[GeneBalthrop]

Terraricca…………your continual twisting of what I am say is what is wrong Here , You continue to accuse and never deal with the posted Scriptures only shows your ignorance on this subject. Where have i ever said we have no responsibility for our actions, a pure lie of yours. We are held accountable for our actions. But those actions come (NOT) From so-called “FREE WILLS”. But from captivated WILL , Jesus said He did (NOT) come to do (HIS) WILL but the WILL of Him who sent HIM. Why did He say that, seeing He never sinned , Why not Just do His own So-called “FREE WILL”, the answer is because if he did do his (OWN) WILL he would have sinned. I also quoted what Paul said , but in you self PRIDE you choose to ignore Jesus as well as Paul words on the subject. Because of Pride your arrogance and accusations spew out of your mouth . So we will see who is right on Judgment day YOUR Pride and arrogance , or Paul, Jesus and GOD'S written words. IMO

[GeneBalthrop]

Terraricca……….Read Genesis and you will see the INFLUENCE of the adversary, read it for yourself. That influence (CAUSED) ADAM and  EVE to disobey GOD. This adversarial Will is in Man and they think the can BY there OWN so-called “FREE WILLS” , which in truth is a captivated WILL, Far from “FREE”,  Chose what is Right , Man is held a pensioner BY His captivated WILL. There is Nothing “FREE” about them. But Pride does not want men to understand that , So they might start putting theirs WILLS to DEATH and Obey GOD, as Jesus DID HIS WILL>  Your denial of a captivated will by saying it is a FREE Will, is also a denial of the word of GOD. “FOR HE CAME TO SET A HOST OF CAPTIVES FREE”. Free from What , Their own Self Wills that are held in captivity by their thoughts. WE ARE SAVED BY THE (GRACE) OF GOD AND THAT (NOT) OF OR FROM OURSELVES. WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO GET IT?  ITS NOT ABOUT OUR WILLS IT,S ABOUT GOD'S WILL AND PURPOSE. “FOR GOD DOES ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF (HIS) OWN WILL”.  YOUR WILL OR MINE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Deal with the scriptures and quit dancing around them and coming up with your Prideful false accusations and Ideologies.  IMO

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 08 2010,18:20)

gene Christ was doing God will ,out of his freewill. Satan was doing his selves will ,out of his freewill.

Trararricca……….Jesus said “THE SON OF MAN CAME (NOT) to DO (HIS) WILL but the will of Him who sent Him. And again, “FOR IT IS WRITTEN IN THE VOLUMES OF THE BOOKS I COME TO DO (THY) WILL O GOD. And again ” THE SON OF MAN CAN DO (NOTHING) OF HIMSELF , BUT THE FATHER (IN) HIM DOTH THE WORKS”. And again ” FATHER REMOVE THIS CUP FROM ME (his will) NEVER THE LESS (NOT) (MY) WILL BUT THY WILL BE DONE. and again ” THY KINGDOM COME (THY) WILL BE DONE. And again, FOR THERE IS (NO) GOOD THING IN MY FLESH, BECAUSE TO (WILL) IS PRESENT IN ME. Well So much for your so-called “FREE WILL” salvation you are preaching. Jesus and Paul did not think their so-called FREE WILL Choices were saving them according to scriptures. “FOR BY (GRACE) ARE YOU SAVED AND THAT (NOT) OF OR FROM YOURSELF, IT IS A (GIFT) FROM GOD. The only thing our Wills do is get in the way and produce PRIDE in US, and self focus salvation. Paul did not out of HIS own 'Free Will , decide to quite following the Jews and turn and follow Jesus. He was (caused ) to do that, all who go to Jesus are (caused) to by GOD, they do not come by their own so-called free will choices. GOD draws us to Jesus by the power of His Spirit in us. Salvation is about GOD'S work not Man Work, FOR HE WORKS IN US (BOTH) TO (WILL) AND DO OF (HIS) GOOD PLEASURE. Terraricca you argument is with what is written not me.

[terraricca]

gene

it is you who do not see,you tell me it would be out of pride is men chose that pride or it is forced on them ?
Christ came to do Gods will ,i know that,but why was he tested?? was this” a mise en scene” what the french calls.

you tell me i did not look at you supplied scriptures you are wrong i did ,it seems more you have ignored mine.

i have look at freewill story from about 3 century to modern.

i also have looked in determinism,don't make much sense.

just because i show you the truth you called it arrogance ,just because you do not see it or may be i do not see it ,and then say see at judgement day is pride,no it is just the right statement to the unlocked views .is not all thing to be judged in do time? it is said we all be judge by what we have said and done.

[terraricca]

gene

you have not answered my questions on my quote,

you reffer to the wrong story,;please answer those questions

Christ was doing God will ,out of his freewill.
Satan was doing his selves will ,out of his freewill.

both are and were in heaven,before the father.

two influences i only see one ,influence that is God ,were was the influence of Satan ??

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 08 2010,17:10)

Hi brother Gene, I always wonder how you are not fed up answering people's repeated queries and their negations on your strong reasons on 'Myth of Free Will'. I hope our brothers Ed J and Terraricca will realise these honest attempts of yours. peace and love to you Adam

Adam………I do get feed up at times, but then i really don't have much more to do now in my life and i do enjoy discussing GOD'S Words, with people. What is amazing is how much people can close off on what is posted and not willing to even think about it from another's prospective. Maybe we are all learning by this don't really know for sure. I do love it when people use sound logic to support there beliefs and what they put forth. There are some Here who really do at time make real sense in what they post, and i love that.

Peace and love to you and your ADAM…………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 09 2010,04:23)

gene you have not answered my questions on my quote, you reffer to the wrong story,;please answer those questions Christ was doing God will ,out of his freewill. Satan was doing his selves will ,out of his freewill. both are and were in heaven,before the father. two influences i only see one ,influence that is God ,were was the influence of Satan ??

terraricca………I offer Scripture, you offer a story of your assumptions, Show us where it says Jesus out of His own “FREE” WILL, was doing GOD'S WILL. that is an assumption on your part but not scripture show us that.

All are adversaries of GOD who do there (OWN) Will out of there falsely assumed “FREE” WILLS>

[terraricca]

gene,

wen Paul said “I see nothing good in my flesh” this is related to the usefulness of the flesh to be saved from sin and dead.

FOR GOD DOES ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF (HIS) OWN WILL”. YOUR WILL OR MINE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Deal with the scriptures and quit dancing around them

please could tell me this verse i do not find it in my bible ;FOR GOD …AFTER THE COUNSEL(ADVICE) OF HIS OWN WILL”

So the prophet stopped but said, “I know that God has determined to destroy you, because you have done this and have not listened to my advice.”(counsel)

Job 12:13 “To God belong wisdom and power;
advice and understanding are his.

Ps 1:1 Blessed is the man
who does not walk in the advice of the wicked
or stand in the way of sinners
or sit in the seat of mockers.

Ps 107:11 for they had rebelled against the words of God
and despised the advice of the Most High.

Rev 3:18 I advise you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see

YOU CAN SEE I HAVE CHANGED THE WORD COUNSEL TO ADVICE THIS MEANS THE SAME THING ACCORDING TO THE DICTIONARY.

QUESTION;WHY WOULD GOD GIVE ADVICE TO PEOPLE IF THEY HAVE NO CHOICE TO IT ,??
YOU PUT EVERYTING OUT OF CONTEXT THIS IS NOT GOOD.

[NickHassan]

G,
You believe in yin yan and that men are like crash test dummies strapped helplessly awaiting their fate.

Satan does indeed control those outside of Christ.

But God is in US to will and to do[Phil].
His Spirit like the gentle wind encourages and guides the thoughts and wills of those attuned to God.
They still have freedom and many fall away in love with that freedom and unaware that committed servanthood is the safe place to be.

[terraricca]

gene

here is another scripture for you to see;My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
JN 7:17 “ If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

“IF ANYONE IS WILLING TO DO HIS WILL(GOD)

[terraricca]

GENE

HERE IS A VERSE TO LOOK AT;My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.
JN 7:17 “ If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

“IF ANYONE IS “WILLING” TO DO HIS WILL(GODS) we can chose so we are responsible,so there is freewill.
those are Christ words,not mine

[chosenone]

Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 09 2010,04:45)

gene, please could tell me this verse i do not find it in my bible ;FOR GOD …AFTER THE COUNSEL(ADVICE) OF HIS OWN WILL” YOU CAN SEE I HAVE CHANGED THE WORD COUNSEL TO ADVICE THIS MEANS THE SAME THING ACCORDING TO THE DICTIONARY. QUESTION;WHY WOULD GOD GIVE ADVICE TO PEOPLE IF THEY HAVE NO CHOICE TO IT ,?? YOU PUT EVERYTING OUT OF CONTEXT THIS IS NOT GOOD.

terraricca.
Here is the scripture you couldn't find in your bible:

Eph.1:11 …in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,

Councel and advice do not have the same meaning, close, but not the same. It's not wise to change scripture for your convenience.

Blessings.

[Author]

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