Free Will?

[chosenone]

Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 07 2010,14:30)

Please share your views Adam

Hi Adam.
A very good post. I agree, and the post you presented has some very good points. Yes, “free will” is nowhere in scripture, yes it does say “choose”, but it is God who dircets our paths.
Eph.1:11 states this clearly … in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,
How can one argue with this? “the One (God) Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,”
May I add one ,ore scripture … For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.
(Eph.2:10)
Trust scripture, “All is of God”.

Blessings, Jerry.

[terraricca]

Goll

on some of your remarks on free will ,you are lost in your thinking,you absolutely have no knowledge of the scriptures,

you should start to read the scriptures without the influences of others and search the influence of the scriptures themself,and stop religion application to jump from one verse to another just to twist the meaning to their or your conclusion,
you will have more inside in God plan of Christ

[terraricca]

goll

“[God] has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, ” 2 Timothy 1:9 NASB

did you answer the call ,how you were forced in to it ?? you were influenced in to it how
were and wen did you change ??

again you miss interpret scriptures to your twisted believes

[terraricca]

goll

Group: Regular Members
Posts: 2221
Joined: Jan. 2008 Posted: Feb. 07 2010,14:54

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Question:
In 2 Thessalonians 2:11 it says God will send sinners a “strong delusion.” Why would God have to send a “delusion” if men have no freewill? It appears to indicate that men must have a choice otherwise God would not have to fool them?

Answer:

First, it is important to define what is meant by the term “free will.” When I state that men do not have “free will,” it does not mean men have no choices. What I am reacting against (and I believe the Bible would confirm my conviction) is the idea of libertarian autonomy. In other words, the classic, philosophical idea that a person's will and reason is separated from any influence by his or her sin nature. The Bible never separates man into compartments, where one compartment would have no influence on any of the others. The scriptures clearly teach that the will and mind of a sinner is woven with his sin nature so that the choices made by the sinner are in one accord with his sin nature.

Moreover, the idea of Total Depravity does not indicate a totality of degree, as if a sinner is as depraved as he or she could be, but the description speaks more to a sinner's orientation. There is a wide spectrum of sinners. For example, a sinner could be a right wing moralist, while another sinner could be involved with producing pornography and exploiting young girls; yet, both sinners are oriented away from God. It is the Lord who restrains the severity of sinners' depravity displaying itself in action, and that restraint is a gracious act of God, because it keeps the sinner from filling up a rather large cup of wrath.

This does not mean that a sinner does not make genuine choices. Sinners make free choices, but those choices will be according to their nature. The Bible defines being fallen into sin as being a God hater, so sinners will make choices that never take into account the sovereignty and lordship of God because they by nature hate God. Those choices are made freely, from their heart, but those choices will be oriented toward ungodliness, or perhaps self-righteousness if the person is a moralist.

Coming to 2 Thessalonians 2:11, the expression “strong delusion” speaks more to God giving sinners up to their utter depravity (similar to Romans 1), so that they will be certain to be condemned, as 2:12 affirms. Basically, God, by giving them strong delusion, is fixing them in their condemnation by removing His grace and leaving them to their sin. In like fashion, God sent a wicked spirit to torment Saul in 1 Samuel. The torment of the wicked spirit only served to stir up Saul's wicked heart so that his internal sin would be manifested outwardly (what we see when he attacked David and behaved irrationally), and thus he is solidified as certainly bearing God's judgment upon him. I believe this is what Paul has in mind when he states that these men will be sent a “strong delusion.”

YOU SHOULD READ AND UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING ,BECAUSE IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND YOUR OWN WRITTEN WORDS ,YOU ARE RECIEVING A STRONG DELUTION'

YOU ARE CONTREDICTING YOUR SELVE ,AND DO NOT MAKE SENSE.
TWISTING SCRIPTURES BECAUSE YOU ARE INFLUENCE BY OTHER MEN MINDS, NOT BY THE SCRIPTURES IN A WHOLE.

[terraricca]

CO

terraricca

Group: Members
Posts: 1681
Joined: Oct. 2009 Posted: Feb. 07 2010,02:03

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CO

Isa 54:15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

i do not see what you say ,that God created Satan;

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

this just shows God saying he made light and so made darkness;this is obvious enough.
now he says he make peace and by doing so he as create evil,this is also obvious enough .

your interpretation is wrong i have never see this before this as nothing the do with Satan.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Isa 46:12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:

this verses as nothing to do with the interpretation you are given it,
of cause God does what he wants but for a reason and it is explain in the fallowing verse,why do you only read part of a verse to twisted to your own mind.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Eph 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

in this verses you quote is the truth spell out clearly ,why so you cut it up for the purpose of your own mind.??god purpose was to save men from the beginning and use his son to fulfil it.SO ?
counsel means advise it also obvious that God give advice .

God will ,will always be done, with us accepting is grace or not, the effect will be only to us because we did not accepted so we die,but if we accepted we live ,this is were there is a difference.
but we are free to chose.that s a fact.and it is our will to do it ,

all is of God ,what that statement as to do with free will ,God as created all things do not know that much ? he also as created as free to chose between good and evil. so if we have a choice we have free will.
if not then we are robots and fallow orders as per the buttons are pushed.

as for your comment “save yourselves” just because we have free will ,we are not saved this is ridiculous to think that .

Christ said ;there are two doors a big one and a small one did he not say that we can pick which door we want to go through,if you can not chose why making two doors??

think about it free will is only direct related to our responsibility of choice between serving God or not.

I CAN NOT SAY IT ANY BETTER SO THAT 'S IT ,IT IS UP TO YOU TO UNDERSTAND IT.YOU ARE FREE IN YOUR WILL (DESISION)

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[gollamudi]

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 07 2010,15:12)

Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 07 2010,14:30) Myth of Free Will : Please share your views Adam Hi Adam, The myth of no free will; You present a false truth. Just because there is influence on everybody does NOT negate “FREE WILL”! Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi brother Ed J,
I know many of our brothers will not agree with these views. Yes, you are right our wills are certainly influenced either by our own inner cause and effects or by God. I don't believe in any (personal)devil who causes us to commit evil. Once our will is influenced by somebody or some thing it is no more can be considered as free will. I do agree we have freedom to choose from the given options available to us. But it doesn't eliminate God's sovergnity on our decision making process.

Please think over
Adam

[gollamudi]

Quote (chosenone @ Feb. 07 2010,17:30)

Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 07 2010,14:30) Please share your views Adam Hi Adam.   A very good post.  I agree, and the post you presented has some very good points.  Yes, “free will” is nowhere in scripture, yes it does say “choose”, but it is God who dircets our paths.   Eph.1:11 states this clearly  … in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,   How can one argue with this?  “the One (God) Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,”   May I add one ,ore scripture   … For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. (Eph.2:10)   Trust scripture, “All is of God”. Blessings,  Jerry.

Hi brother Jerry,
I thank you for such appreciation. I know you and brother Gene can alone agree with these views but not others in this forum.

Peace and love
Adam

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Terraricca,
Please read this portion of my post above

“This does not mean that a sinner does not make genuine choices. Sinners make free choices, but those choices will be according to their nature. The Bible defines being fallen into sin as being a God hater, so sinners will make choices that never take into account the sovereignty and lordship of God because they by nature hate God. Those choices are made freely, from their heart, but those choices will be oriented toward ungodliness, or perhaps self-righteousness if the person is a moralist”.

See for your self it's as the result of all cause and effects in human mind though you make free choices but that is according to the program already fed into your mind but not because you can choose any thing inspite of influences you have undergone. It is false free will I say. It negates God's sovergnity over His creation. It creates pride in the mind of people. If you want more truth please read the information in the new thread “Myth of free will”

Thank you
Adam

[kerwin]

Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 07 2010,20:05)

Hi brother Terraricca, Please read this portion of my post above “This does not mean that a sinner does not make genuine choices. Sinners make free choices, but those choices will be according to their nature. The Bible defines being fallen into sin as being a God hater, so sinners will make choices that never take into account the sovereignty and lordship of God because they by nature hate God. Those choices are made freely, from their heart, but those choices will be oriented toward ungodliness, or perhaps self-righteousness if the person is a moralist”. See for your self it's as the result of all cause and effects in human mind though you make free choices but that is according to the program already fed into your mind but not because you can choose any thing inspite of influences you have undergone. It is false free will I say. It negates God's sovergnity over His creation. It creates pride in the mind of people. If you want more truth please read the information in the new thread “Myth of free will” Thank you Adam

You should define what you believe free choice is or you will just talk past others.

[kerwin]

Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 07 2010,19:48)

Quote (chosenone @ Feb. 07 2010,17:30) Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 07 2010,14:30) Please share your views Adam Hi Adam.   A very good post.  I agree, and the post you presented has some very good points.  Yes, “free will” is nowhere in scripture, yes it does say “choose”, but it is God who dircets our paths.   Eph.1:11 states this clearly  … in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,   How can one argue with this?  “the One (God) Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,”   May I add one ,ore scripture   … For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. (Eph.2:10)   Trust scripture, “All is of God”. Blessings,  Jerry. Hi brother Jerry, I thank you for such appreciation. I know you and brother Gene can alone agree with these views but not others in this forum. Peace and love Adam

I happen to believe in free choice. I just do not see that it contradicts determinism.

I am not quite sure what Gene believes as his words confuse me.

[terraricca]

goll
if you would read my quote you would learn, that they say the same thing that i do ,in a different angle,
sorry for my inability to writing it down so you would be able to understand it.

Quote (chosenone @ Feb. 07 2010,17:30)
Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 07 2010,14:30)
Please share your views
Adam

Hi Adam.
A very good post. I agree, and the post you presented has some very good points. Yes, “free will” is nowhere in scripture, yes it does say “choose”, but it is God who dircets our paths.
Eph.1:11 states this clearly … in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,
How can one argue with this? “the One (God) Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,”
May I add one ,ore scripture … For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.
(Eph.2:10)
Trust scripture, “All is of God”.

Blessings, Jerry.

Hi brother Jerry,
I thank you for such appreciation. I know you and brother Gene can alone agree with these views but not others in this forum.

Peace and love
Adam

[terraricca]

goll

there is no determinism this would make robots of us.
i have say and say it again free will i only limited to the boundary of our creation,do you understand ?that

so free will ,will not allow you to jump from a bridge to the pavement without impact to you health
i f you run into a wall it will be the same,do you understand? that

God as created us and all live and all boundaries,even the ocean as boundaries made by God,
so now within those boundaries we have free will this means that we are responsible for our action to what ever we do;Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
God as said now men as the knowledge of good and evil.this means simply put ,you can chose to look for God or do what you think is best for you,for experience look at the OT the the Israelite make there way to rebel against God and the consequences.there hearths and neck were made from iron.

the truth is there is only two choices but you make it with your free will and bear the full effect of your acts.and in this righteousness of God is right judgement,there is more to say ,but i stop here.

Hi borther Gene,
This is the ambiguity created by the N.T writers which caused many christinas to stumble and fall in this another trap of preexistence. Therefore I humbly request you to read Jewish views on New testament you will realise that the material in N.T is completly against the Jewish Monotheism of the Hebrew Bible. Please read some books on Jewish interpretation of N.T like “Faith Strengthened”, “Twenty Six reasons” etc. I also request you that none of Christian sect could interpret our N.T in a proper way everybody is biased one way or the another. They are not revealing full truth.

Love and peace
dam

[GeneBalthrop]

terraricca………..I firmly  believe you have no idea what you are talking about, with regards to “Free WILLS”, because there exists no such thing as a “FREE WILL”, because GOD gives us liberty to exercise out (INFLUENCED WILLS) does not mean they are “FREE” pure nonsense .

You example of a man jumping off a bridge is foolish, because the man will not jump off the bridge has nothing to do with any “FREE” Will at all, it has to do with (FEAR) of the Consequences of that act. In fact it is a will controlled by fear (hardly FREE) at all. If a persons will is being controlled by His desire to die then He will Jump off and die. No of these two examples Prove a “FREE WILL” Just the opposite a controlled and influenced WILL.

The Idea of a so-called “FREE WILL” is of an adversarial Spirit to GOD, because it makes people think they are what choses there own destinies and they (apart) from God control it. People driven by that ideology are a GOD unto themselves, they believe they are in control and their WILL is what counts, they do not PUT THEMSELVES to DEATH as Jesus Did His WILL. They amount to (I) GODS. Their PRIDE IN SELF won't let them put their will to death. Jesus said He who will save HIS LIFE (the one operating by his own will) will loose it , but He who will put HIS LIFE to death will save IT. Think about it. Our So-called “FREE WILL” only act to separate us from GOD'S WILL> That is the problem with mankind they simply want to be FREE from GOD , and maintain their OWN so-called “FREEDOMS”, but in fact are held captives by there SELF WILLS.   There is (ONLY) ONE that is RIGHTEOUS AND GOOD, and that is GOD HIMSELF NO OTHER. Even Jesus said WHY DO YOU CALL ME GOOD , THERE IS ONLY ONE WHO IS GOOD AND THAT IS GOD. But you feel you are good by your OWN so-called “FREE WILL” Choices. Nothing could be further from the truth.

We are (CREATED) BY GOD UNTO GOOD WORKS, AND THOSE WORKS ARE FRUITS OF (HIS) SPIRIT, NOT OURS, DRIVEN BY ANY SO-CALLED “FREE WILLS”, but in fact are captivated WILLS far from FREE. “FOR IT IS GOD THAT WORKS IN US (BOTH) TO (WILL) AND DO OF (HIS) GOOD PLEASURE”.  Glory and Honor to OUR GOD who along is the CREATOR of RIGHTEOUSNESS in HIS CREATION.  IMO

gene

[terraricca]

gene
it is you who are teaching ferry tails ,if you do not like my example ,explain to me why so many people do not give up there wicket ways and fallow Christ direction to be saved ,and so prevent the consequences of God wrath,same thing than jumping off the bridge it is your free will choice ,

your influence that you teaches is your religion mind, to deiced .i have showed you that the scriptures teaches responsibility and with responsibility come choices and with choices there is free will other wise we would not have to chose,
you teaching determinism what is a deiced idea, it does not declare the righteousness of God ,
“all is of God”is your partial verse you take to deceive people to believe in your influence dream world.
read the total scripture and the meaning will be explain clearly to what it really means ,that all creation is of God, this is true.but you try to use this partial verse to support your determinism theory what is absurd,
if there would not have be free will responsibility God would not have given the law to Moses,
think about it.
also why preaching the gospel ,if everything is predetermined??
also why should have Christ give up his live for men ,who could not change there ways anyway.
why do we fight against the master of this wicket world if are predetermination is in effect and do not matter???
why do we need the help of Christ to go through this successfully and to become holy???

you are fighting against the truth, not with it.and for it.

the wording of FREE WILL is in the bible as “the free will offering” look it up.;Lev 22:18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt

and remember the total scriptures OT and NT are totally in harmony within themselves.all inspired.

[GeneBalthrop]

Terraricca………..If that is all you have to support Your False teachings of a FREE WILLS that is pathetic at best. The Free Will offering mentioned in Lev 22:18, has nothing to do with OUR so-called “FREE WILLS”. If that is all you have got to bolster you false belief system of SELF CHOICE BY A “FREE” WILL , YOU HAVE NO ARGUMENT AT ALL. Scripture does not support you at all in your assumptions. The person Willed on HIS OWN to give the free will Offering, “Free” there meaning it was not required by LAW. He was at liberty (if) He willed to to give it, you need to try to stick to the context of what is being said, instead of making all kinds of assumptions and dig and scratch for some vague scripture and try to make it fit you assumptions. Even GOD HIMSELF DOES NOT HAVE A FREE WILL, as i have shown and quoted many times , but you just continue to ignore posted scriptures to fit you own dogmas. IMO

[terraricca]

gene

well so be it , your rejection of your responsibility that is yours,
the free will offering is the one that the gentiles offers to God but you are not in the scriptures
you have your own way .

so see you on judgement day ,with your determinism.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 07 2010,14:30)

Myth of Free Will : Most people say that they believe in “free will.” Do you have any idea what that means? I believe that you will find a great deal of superstition on this subject. The will is saluted as the grand power of the human soul which is completely free to direct our lives. But from what is it free? And what is its power? THE MYTH OF CIRCUMSTANTIAL FREEDOM No one denies that man has a will—that is, a faculty of choosing what he wishes to say, do, and think. But have you ever reflected on the pitiful weakness of your will? Though you have the ability to make a decision, you do not have the power to carry out your purpose. Will may devise a course of action, but will has no power to execute its intention. Joseph's brothers hated him. They sold him to be a slave. But God used their actions to make him a ruler over themselves. They chose their course of action to harm Joseph. But God in his power directed events for Joseph's good. He said, “You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good” (Gen. 50:20). And how many of your decisions are miserably thwarted? You may choose to be a millionaire, but God's providence is likely to prevent it. You may decide to be a scholar, but bad health, an unstable home, or lack of finances may frustrate your will. You choose to go on a vacation, but an automobile accident may send you to the hospital instead. By saying that your will is free, we certainly do not mean that it determines the course of your life. You did not choose the sickness, sorrow, war, and poverty that have spoiled your happiness. You did not choose to have enemies. If man's will is so potent, why not choose to live on and on? But you must die. The major factors which shape your life cannot thank your will. You did not select your social status, color, intelligence, etc. Any sober reflection on your experience will produce the conclusion, “A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps” (Prov. 16:9). Rather than extolling the human will, we ought to humbly praise the Lord whose purposes shape our lives. As Jeremiah confessed, “I know, 0 Lord, that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man to direct his steps” (Jer. 10:23). Yes, you may choose what you want, and you may plan what you will do. But your will is not free to accomplish anything contrary to the purposes of God. Neither have you any power to reach your goals but that which God allows you. The next time you are so enamored with your own will, remember Jesus' parable about the rich man. The wealthy man said, “I will do this; I will pull down my barns, and build larger ones; and there I will store all my grain and my goods… But God said to him, Fool! This night your soul is required of you” (Luke 12:18-21). He was free to plan but not free to accomplish; so it is with you. THE MYTH OF ETHICAL FREEDOM But freedom of the will is cited as an important factor in making moral decisions. Man's will is said to be free to choose between good and evil. But again we must ask, from what is it free? And what is man's will free to choose? The will of man is his power to choose between alternatives. Your will does decide your actions from a number of options. You have the faculty to direct your own thoughts, words, and deeds. Your decisions are not formed by an outside force but from within yourself. No man is compelled to act contrary to his will, nor forced to say what he does not wish. Your will guides your actions. Yet this does not mean that the power to decide is free from all influence. You make choices based on your understanding, your feelings, your likes and dislikes, and your appetites. In other words, your will is not free from yourself! Your choices are determined by your own basic character. The will is not independent of your nature but the slave of it. Your choices do not shape your character, but your character guides your choices. The will is quite partial to what you know, feel, love, and desire. You always choose on the basis of your disposition, according to the condition of your heart. It is just for this reason that your will is not free to do good. Your will is the servant of your heart, and your heart is evil. “The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” (Gen. 6:5). “No one does good, not even one” (Rom. 3:12). No power forces man to sin contrary to his will, but the descendants of Adam are so evil that they always choose the evil. Your decisions are molded by your understanding, and the Bible says of all men, “Their senseless minds are darkened” (Rom. 1:21). Man can only be righteous when he desires to have fellowship with God, but, “No one seeks for God” (Rom. 3:11). Your appetites crave sin, and thus you cannot choose Good. To choose good is contrary human nature. If you chose to obey God, it would be the result of external compulsion. But you are free to choose, and hence your choice is enslaved to your own evil nature. If fresh meat and tossed salad were placed before a hungry lion, he would choose the flesh. This is because his nature dictates the selection. It is just so with man. The will of man is free from outside force but not from the bias of human nature. That bias is against God. Man's powers of decision are free to choose whatever the human heart dictates; therefore there is no possibility of a man choosing to please God without a prior work of divine grace. What most people mean by free will is the idea that man is by nature neutral and therefore able to choose either good or evil. This simply is not true. The human will and the whole of human nature is bent to only evil continually. Jeremiah asked, “Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil” (Jer. 13:23). It is impossible. It is contrary to nature. Thus do men desperately need the supernatural transformation of their natures, else their wills are enslaved to choosing evil. In spite of the great praise that is given to “free will,” we have seen that man's will is not free to choose a course contrary to God's purposes nor free to act contrary to his own moral nature. Your will does not determine the events of your life nor the circumstances of it. Ethical choices are not formed by a neutral mind but always dictated by your personality. THE MYTH OF SPIRITUAL FREEDOM Nevertheless many assert that the human will makes the ultimate choice of spiritual life or spiritual death. Here the will is altogether free to choose eternal life offered in Jesus Christ or to reject it. It is said that God will give a new heart to all who choose by the power of their own free will to receive Jesus Christ. There can be no question that receiving Jesus Christ is an act of the human will. It is often called “faith.” But how do men come to willingly receive the Lord? It is usually answered, “Out of the power of their own free will.” But how can that be? Jesus is a prophet. To receive him means to believe all that he says. In John 8:41-45 Jesus made it clear that you were born of Satan. This evil father hates the truth and imparted the same bias into your heart by nature. Hence said Jesus, “Because I tell you the truth, you do not believe me.” How does the human will jump out of man to choose to believe what the human mind hates and denies? To receive Jesus further means to embrace him as a priest—that is, to employ,and depend on him to sue out peace with God by sacrific and intercession. Paul tells us that the mind with which we were born is hostile to God (Rom. 8:7). How can the will escape the influence of human nature which wa s born with a violent enmity to God? It would be insane for the will to choose peace when every bone and drop of blood cries out for rebellion. Then too, receiving Jesus means to welcome him as a king. It means choosing to obey his every command, to confess his right of rule, and to worship before his throne. But the human mind, emotions, and desires all cry out, “We will not have this man to reign over us” (Luke 19:14). If my whole being hates his truth, hates his rule, and hates peace with God, how can my will be responsible for receiving Jesus? How can such a sinner have faith? It is not man's will but God's grace that must be thanked for giving a sinner a new heart. Unless God changes the heart, creates a new spirit of peace, truthfulness, and submission, man will not choose to receive Jesus Christ and eternal life in Him. A new heart must be given before a man will believe, or else the human will is hopelessly enslaved to evil human nature—even in the matter of conversion. Jesus said, “Marvel not that I said to you, you must be born again” (John 3:7). Unless you are, you will never see his kingdom. Read John 1:12 & 13. It says that those who believe on Jesus have been “born, not of the will of man, but of God.” As your will is not responsible for your coming into this world, it is not responsible for the new birth. It is your Creator who must be thanked for your life, and if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation (II Cor. 5:17). Who ever chose to be created? When Lazarus rose from the dead, he chose to answer the call of Christ, but he did not choose to come to life. So Paul said in Ephesians 2:4 & 5, “When we were dead in sins God has quickened us with Christ (by grace you are saved).” Faith is the first act of a will made new by the Holy Spirit. Receiving Christ is an act of man just as breathing is, but God must first give life. No wonder Martin Luther wrote a book entitled The Bondage of The Will which he considered one of his most important treatises. The will is in the chains of an evil human nature. You who extol the free will as a great force are clinging to a root of pride. Man, as fallen in sin, is utterly helpless and hopeless. The will of man offers no hope. It was the will choosing the forbidden fruit that brought us into misery. The powerful grace of God alone offers deliverance. Cast yourself upon God's mercy for salvation. Ask for the Spirit of Grace that he may create a new spirit within you. Source: http://www.eternallifeministries.org/wc_myth.htm Please share your views Adam

Adam……….Good post brother. What is funny about FREE WILLS, is there is (NO) Scripture that supports it. People tend to Think because GOD gives us LIBERTY to exercise our (INFLUENCED WILLS) that some how means our Wills are FREE. Nothing could be further from the truth. GOD HIMSELF DOES NOT USE A “FREE” WILL, but a (COUNSELED) WILL. “FOR GO DOES ALL THINGS AFTER THE (COUNCIL) OF HIS WILL”. Problem man tries to do all things he does after the counsel of His will to. But scripture say “THY KINGDOM COME AND (THY) WILL BE DONE, NOT OUR WILLS BE DONE. The Apostle Paul said “THERE WAS NO GOOD THING IN MY FLESH, (why), BECAUSE TO WILL IS PRESENT.

Yet many think that is a good thing to be SELF WILLED and earn your salvation by your (OWN) So-called “FREE WILLS” but that is far from what scripture says, “FOR WE ARE SAVED BY (GRACE) AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES, IT (SALVATION ) IS A GIFT FROM GOD, NOT OF WORKS LEAST ANY SHOULD BOAST. PRIDE IS THE OFFSPRING OF SO-CALLED “FREE WILL” DRIVEN PEOPLE.

The humble put their Wills to death as our Lord Jesus Christ did and accept the Will of GOD. IMO

peace and love to you Adam and yours………………..gene

[NickHassan]

Hi,
When folk deny free will they are denying COMPLETELY FREE WILL.
Even Jesus had his own will which he struggled with in the gaarden.

The carnal men of earth are under compulsion to unwittingly obey the god of this world but Jesus offers freedom.

Those that are set free can be guided by the gentle wind of the Spirit which encourages but does not compel.

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 08 2010,00:45)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 07 2010,15:12) Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 07 2010,14:30) Myth of Free Will : Please share your views Adam Hi Adam, The myth of no free will; You present a false truth. Just because there is influence on everybody does NOT negate “FREE WILL”! Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Hi brother Ed J, I know many of our brothers will not agree with these views. Yes, you are right our wills are certainly influenced either by our own inner cause and effects or by God. I don't believe in any (personal)devil who causes us to commit evil. Once our will is influenced by somebody or some thing it is no more can be considered as free will. I do agree we have freedom to choose from the given options available to us. But it doesn't eliminate God's sovergnity on our decision making process. Please think over Adam

Hi Adam,

I can't agree with your logic, freedom to choose IS “Free Will”.
Your logic is flawed. If a poor person living in Africa learns about life in America
and they want to come here(a free will choice), but because of there circumstances
they cannot, that does not mean the lost their “Free Will”.
This is the type of logic you present?
Can you not see that it is faulty logic?

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[GeneBalthrop]

EDJ…..You are talking about an (influenced WILL) there does not exist any WILL “FREE” of Influences, NOT GOD'S nor Mans. Think about it, a WILL is ONLY a WILL if it (IS) (INFLUENCED), a will is the expression of what we want, or there simply would not be (ANY) WILL in EXISTENCE. While GOD gives us Liberty to a Point to exercise our (influenced) WILLS on earth, HIS is the (ONLY) WILL that will ultimately Be DONE. Jesus was not doing His Will but the FATHERS Will, that is why he could say whoever seen him was seeing the FATHER because His was only doing the FATHERS WILL, not HIS. OUR Wills separate Us from GOD and must be put to death, This is done by the (GRACE)(Gods influencing on the heart) by GOD, when this happens you are loosing (YOUR) Life by Doing GOD'S WILL , not yours. Scripture does not deal with any so-called “FREE WILLS” because no WILL exists as “FREE”.

peace and love………………..gene

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