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Quote (Gene @ April 06 2009,13:18) Kerwin ………I don not believe the Creator of all things can be tempted at all. I don't know where you got that from. If God said he created everything then that does include good and evil also brother. I quoted a scripture the proved it and you simple change the word to fit your comprehension of it. This is why no progress can be made Here. sorry brother. love and peace to you and yours…………………………………….gene
G,
God created choice.
He prefers people to be free to choose.
No harm in that as even love is not love unless it is chosenNick…………your wrong again, do you chose to love your wife because she is Just there, or is it because she comforts and shows you care of some kind. So you are caused to love Here , Scripture says we love GOD (Because ) he first loved us. You don't love anyone out of thin air we are caused to LOVE. It has nothing to do with your SO-CALLED FREE WILL CHOICE. Show Scripture where GOD created Choice based on FREE WILLS. Produce Scripture to back up your point. Show me one Place where it says (FREE) WILLS in all of the bible. (FREE) WILL is only pride of man talking. IMO
peacew and love to you and yours……………………………gene
G,
I had an idea your view of love would be some form of dry intellect.
Not surprising I suppose as you think we are all robots.
Have you never experienced love?Nick……..I would rather have Love with Intellect then some idiot who thinks he knows what love is and really is totally ignorant of Love . Nick help us out here and give us a description of the Love if you can. You seem to think a person can be mentally blank without any Knowledge and still have love . Please explain you can start of with Just the word Itself LOVE give it a try Nick. Tell us How the LOve of GOD is shed around in our Hears without any knowledge.
love and peace to you and yours…………………………………..gene
Nick………I do know them and can explain them, So quit trying to get out of explaining LOVE to Us. Show us your (understanding Nick) instead of flapping you mouth about things you don't understand. IMO
love and peace to you and yours…………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ April 07 2009,16:41) Nick…………your wrong again, do you chose to love your wife because she is Just there, or is it because she comforts and shows you care of some kind. So you are caused to love Here , Scripture says we love GOD (Because ) he first loved us. You don't love anyone out of thin air we are caused to LOVE. It has nothing to do with your SO-CALLED FREE WILL CHOICE. Show Scripture where GOD created Choice based on FREE WILLS. Produce Scripture to back up your point. Show me one Place where it says (FREE) WILLS in all of the bible. (FREE) WILL is only pride of man talking. IMO peacew and love to you and yours……………………………gene
Hi brother Gene,
That is another wonderful narration of cause and effects but not any free-will. I know I could not get any thing from Kerwin's reply on my post. I am always impressed by your of way dealing the subjest of fee-will.Thanks and love to you
Adamgollamudi wrote:
Quote I could not get any thing from Kerwin's reply on my post.
Do you believe scripture when it states:
Luke 13:3(NIV) reads:
Quote I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
You can choose to believe whatever you want but I choose to believe all that Jesus teaches.
but choosing (to repent etc) does not automatically prove libertarian free will…. people choose what they choose for reasons…. right? Well these reasons, whether they be the cultural context in which the choices are made, or the vast psychological reasons affecting what they may choose, are all themselves within the purview and control of the sovereignty of God. For a person to always be able to choose different then what they chose in a given situation just means that there are or were not sufficient and necessary reasons as to why they chose what they chose. But that involves us in absurdity and removes the moral underpinnings which are attached to our moral choices. We choose what choose, hopefully, for very good reasons. We may be in a situation where the right choice is very difficult to know, there is no denying that, but in the end, a choice must be made, even if it is to choose not to choose, for that is still having made a choice. If a person chooses to repent, they do so because God has indwelt their heart, enabling them to do what it not within the natural man's ability to do. We are all, believer and unbeliever, commanded to repent, right? This is what Ezekiel tells us:
Ezekiel 36:26-27 (ESV) 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.”
I do not know about you, but I see an awful lot of activity on God's part being necessary in order for us to repent and after repenting, that God will cause us to walk in ways, obeying His laws….
blessings,
kenKen……..I also be lieve that without GOD'S activity in a person they will not repent on their own, or by their so-called (FREE WILL) Choices.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene @ April 15 2009,08:55) Ken……..I also be lieve that without GOD'S activity in a person they will not repent on their own, or by their so-called (FREE WILL) Choices. peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………..gene
So you think each of us is a puppet and God is the puppet master. If that is not what you think then it is certainly what you come off as sounding like and that sounds like blame shifting with God as the victim.Quote (epistemaniac @ April 15 2009,01:58) but choosing (to repent etc) does not automatically prove libertarian free will…. people choose what they choose for reasons…. right? Well these reasons, whether they be the cultural context in which the choices are made, or the vast psychological reasons affecting what they may choose, are all themselves within the purview and control of the sovereignty of God. For a person to always be able to choose different then what they chose in a given situation just means that there are or were not sufficient and necessary reasons as to why they chose what they chose. But that involves us in absurdity and removes the moral underpinnings which are attached to our moral choices. We choose what choose, hopefully, for very good reasons. We may be in a situation where the right choice is very difficult to know, there is no denying that, but in the end, a choice must be made, even if it is to choose not to choose, for that is still having made a choice. If a person chooses to repent, they do so because God has indwelt their heart, enabling them to do what it not within the natural man's ability to do. We are all, believer and unbeliever, commanded to repent, right? This is what Ezekiel tells us: Ezekiel 36:26-27 (ESV) 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.”
I do not know about you, but I see an awful lot of activity on God's part being necessary in order for us to repent and after repenting, that God will cause us to walk in ways, obeying His laws….
blessings,
ken
Hi KenI respect your opinion a lot brother, for I know that you have done your homework. You do not just come off with half quotes and statements without backing it up with scriptures or scholarly quotes and information from the experts.
I have to admit though I am having a little trouble with this one.
Help me to understand for I am open to you because of your Spirit.
It seems to me that there is a working together with God and that I can choose to follow him or not to.
Mind you, in order to follow him he has to call or draw or lead me but still It seems that I must cooperate.
What does Jesus mean when he says “If any man will come after me let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me”?
The Holy Spirit is given to us to lead us and guide us into all truth. I find in my life times that the Holy Spirit may be compelling me to do or not to do something and I disobey anyway. Am I greater than his Spirit?
What does it mean to “quench” the Holy Spirit?
What does it mean to “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling?
It seems to me we are partners together with God in carrying out his will and not just a product of our invironment.
If we all are just gonna do what we are destined to do because of the influences around us then what purpose is the promise of rewards for remaining faithful to the end?
Why has God not saved everyone when his Spirit is drawing everyone?
A little confused!
Blessings WJ
Wj……I believe God will eventually save all as you also do, but at this time only a few , “for many are called but few chosen”.
love and peace to you and yours………………………………………………….gene
WJ……..If what you say is true then How could He Preordained anyone if its up to them to decide their Fate. By their so called FREE WILL CHOICES, tell us this , Did Jeremiah or Cyrus, or John the Baptiste or Moses and all the prophets as well as Jesus Himself, all foreknown and foreordained, did they choses their fate or were they preordained before the were ever Born for that fate which they accomplished Just as written of them.
The quote , “Let every man work out His salvation with fear and trembling”, Is what occurs (BEFORE)The exception of Christ's sacrifice for there sins, once that has been done they have passed from Judgment to Life, Their salvation issue is already solved, no need to continue to fear and tremble, trying to work it out, it has already been dealt with, Unless a person doesn't really believe they are saved by the blood of Christ , in there mind they are saying (well MAYBE) but I am not sure. If you have been transformed into the glorious liberty of the sons of GOD. Then why are you so fearful what doubts are causing that to work in your mind. Your beginning to sound like Nick, who believes we should walk around scared to death that GOD really doesn't forgive us our sins and causes us to repent and thinks it all up to Him to save Himself. IMO
peace and love……………………gene
Quote (Gene @ April 16 2009,16:08) WJ……..If what you say is true then How could He Preordained anyone if its up to them to decide their Fate. By their so called FREE WILL CHOICES, tell us this , Did Jeremiah or Cyrus, or John the Baptiste or Moses and all the prophets as well as Jesus Himself, all foreknown and foreordained, did they choses their fate or were they preordained before the were ever Born for that fate which they accomplished Just as written of them. The quote , “Let every man work out His salvation with fear and trembling”, Is what occurs (BEFORE)The exception of Christ's sacrifice for there sins, once that has been done they have passed from Judgment to Life, Their salvation issue is already solved, no need to continue to fear and tremble, trying to work it out, it has already been dealt with, Unless a person doesn't really believe they are saved by the blood of Christ , in there mind they are saying (well MAYBE) but I am not sure. If you have been transformed into the glorious liberty of the sons of GOD. Then why are you so fearful what doubts are causing that to work in your mind. Your beginning to sound like Nick, who believes we should walk around scared to death that GOD really doesn't forgive us our sins and causes us to repent and thinks it all up to Him to save Himself. IMO
peace and love……………………gene
Hi GeneI know what you believe. Thats why I asked Ken.
Because like you just did you do not address any of the questions (except for one which makes no sense), then you just proceed to critisize, patronize and condemn me and throw poor NH in there along with me.
How is anyones “will” gonna be “influenced” by your spirit and attitude Gene?
BTW, I have no fear, I know in whom I have believed and “I” am persuaded that he is able to keep that “WHICH *I, I, I,* HAVE COMMITTED UNTO HIM” against that day!
WJ
Quote (Gene @ April 16 2009,16:08) WJ……..If what you say is true then How could He Preordained anyone if its up to them to decide their Fate. By their so called FREE WILL CHOICES, tell us this , Did Jeremiah or Cyrus, or John the Baptiste or Moses and all the prophets as well as Jesus Himself, all foreknown and foreordained, did they choses their fate or were they preordained before the were ever Born for that fate which they accomplished Just as written of them.
The quote , “Let every man work out His salvation with fear and trembling”, Is what occurs (BEFORE)The exception of Christ's sacrifice for there sins, once that has been done they have passed from Judgment to Life, Their salvation issue is already solved, no need to continue to fear and tremble, trying to work it out, it has already been dealt with, Unless a person doesn't really believe they are saved by the blood of Christ , in there mind they are saying (well MAYBE) but I am not sure. If you have been transformed into the glorious liberty of the sons of GOD. Then why are you so fearful what doubts are causing that to work in your mind. Your beginning to sound like Nick, who believes we should walk around scared to death that GOD really doesn't forgive us our sins and causes us to repent and thinks it all up to Him to save Himself. IMO
peace and love……………………gene
Quote (Gene @ April 16 2009,16:08)
The quote , “Let every man work out His salvation with fear and trembling”, Is what occurs (BEFORE)The exception of Christ's sacrifice for there sins, once that has been done they have passed from Judgment to Life, Their salvation issue is already solved, no need to continue to fear and tremble, trying to work it out, it has already been dealt with…
OK GeneLet’s talk about Phil. 2:12.
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, “WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING”. Phil 2:12
There are a few things to note here.
First of all you said “Let every man work out His salvation with fear and trembling”.
Take note Gene, the scripture does not say “let every man”. This is what happens when you make half quotes and then build your doctrine around it.
I think David has brought up this point more than once. You should highlight and copy the entire scripture and tell us where it is at.
The verse clearly shows that Paul is speaking to believers, (Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed ), so your point when you state, “Is what occurs (BEFORE)The exception of Christ's sacrifice for there sins, once that has been done they have passed from Judgment to Life”, is false!
Second the Greek grammar totally denies your assumption.
The scripture says…… “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
A. The Greek word for ‘work’ is “katergazomai” which means…
1) to perform, accomplish, achieve
2) to work out i.e. to do that from which something results
a) of things: bring about, result in
3) to fashion i.e. render one fit for a thingIt is a verb in the present tense, the active voice, and the imperative mood.
Present Tense…
The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense.So in other words when Paul says “Work” he is not talking about something that has already happened but is speaking in the present tense.
Active Voice…
The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.The subjects in this verse is the believers who are doing or performing the action.
Imperative Mood…
The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the one commanding. Thus, Jesus' phrase, “Repent ye, and believe the gospel” (Mk.1:15) is not at all an “invitation,” but an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearers.The mood expresses a command. A command is to be carried out by the ones the command is given to. This is called “Obedience” in the scriptures. When one does not carry out the command he is being “Disobedient”.
So you see Gene, Paul is speaking to believers with a command to perform, accomplish. Or work out their salvation.
B. The Greek word for ‘salvation is ’sōtēria” which means…
1) deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation
a) deliverance from the molestation of enemies
b) in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation
1) of Messianic salvation
2) salvation as the present possession of all true Christians
3) future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.Salvation is not just our sins forgiven but includes the entire being, Spirit, Soul and Body.
hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature* may be destroyed and “his spirit saved” on the day of the Lord. 1Cor 5:5
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall “save a soul from death”, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:20
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: “It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body”. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Cor 15:42-44
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and your whole “spirit and soul and body” be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thess 5:23
We have been saved from our sins by his blood, but our whole being is also being saved by his life.
For if, when we were enemies,”we were reconciled to God” by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, “we shall be saved by his life”. Rom 5:10
Therefore let us obey the scripture when Paul says…
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, “WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING”. Phil 2:12
And I might also add…
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Phil 2:13
But the latter does not negate the former. IMO
Blessings WJ
WJ…………..Please explain these them in light of your fear and trembling belief. Seems we have a contradiction of scriptures then right? Should we throw these out of out bibles. Something is wrong some where WJ.
1 John 4:18….> There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Luk 1:74…> That he would grant unto us, that we being delievered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
2Ti 1:7……> For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and a sound mind.
love and peace to you and yours WJ…………………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ April 18 2009,04:06) WJ…………..Please explain these them in light of your fear and trembling belief. Seems we have a contradiction of scriptures then right? Should we throw these out of out bibles. Something is wrong some where WJ. 1 John 4:18….> There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Luk 1:74…> That he would grant unto us, that we being delievered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
2Ti 1:7……> For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and a sound mind.
love and peace to you and yours WJ…………………………….gene
Hi GeneYep there is something wrong. As usual you think that one scripture negates others.
Could it be that maybe your definition of “fear of God” is not the same as fear that torments?
The contradictions lie with you Gene.
“Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling“. Pss 2:11
And I was with you in weakness, and “in fear, and in much trembling“. 1 Cor 2:3
And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with “fear and trembling ye received him“. 2 Cor 7:15
Servants, be obedient to them that are [your] masters according to the flesh, with “fear and trembling“, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;Eph 6:5
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with “reverence and godly fear“: For our God [is] a consuming fire. Heb 12:28,29
Do you hava a problem with Davids and Pauls use of the word fear?
WJ
Quote (Gene @ April 18 2009,04:06) WJ…………..Please explain these them in light of your fear and trembling belief. Seems we have a contradiction of scriptures then right? Should we throw these out of out bibles. Something is wrong some where WJ. 1 John 4:18….> There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Luk 1:74…> That he would grant unto us, that we being delievered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
2Ti 1:7……> For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and a sound mind.
love and peace to you and yours WJ…………………………….gene
Hi GeneBTW
Thank you for actually posting the scripture verses.
Blessings WJ
WJ…. …. Thanks again for dodging and not addressing the scriptures i posted , please comment on them . You and others accuse me of not completely posting scriptures and when i do you just ignore them. I have said all along to Nick that the word fear was reverence and respect, Not the English word for fear. Please explain How the Love of GOD (CASTS OUT) fear but we who have the love of God shed around do not have fear cast out of us. Better yet just explain the three verses i have posted. Seeing you are so pleased i have posted them.
love and peace…………………..gene
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