Free Will?

[GeneBalthrop]

Tim……I believe also that there is no “Free Will” this subject is so important to understand, because it gives a mind set. Mandy mentioned about us being robots and in some way's it's true, why do i say that?, because perfection already exist and God brings us to perfection through His Spirit. Doesent it say ,”be ye HOLY because I am HOLY and Be Ye Perfect Because I am Perfect”. God Himself has to causes this to happen in us we are not born this way. God is creating Us to IMAGE Him, not be Him so He must Show His Soverignty in all things. As he did deminstrate through Phahro in Egypt and all human history He desplays His Power and Sovereignty. The scripture you quoted Tim are acurate and right and do So God's absolute authority in all things. That why I believe we have more going for us then we realize because Man is not in control of His destiney God is, and just like it say's “HIS PERPOSSES WILL STAND” . Jesus said we would all be taught by God . So in some ways the saying is true, the world is a stage and we are the actors. God uses what He created to teach us about thngs including Good and Evil, and works His purposses in all things. The reason the world wants (FREE WILL) is because people want to think they are the master of their destneys, you might say a GOD unto themselves, but in the end we will all come to see who is in absolute controll of everything. I know it will God not US.

Peace to you and yours Tim………………geen

[Not3in1]

Gene,

Let me put it another way, I would not receive as much joy from my children if I knew I was ultimately in control of their fate (all their decision making and choices). It would rob me the joy of watching them evolve into grown-ups. It would not bring me pleasure and pride when they make good choices because it would be ME making it happen in their lives. Do you see what I'm trying to say here?

When we give birth to sons we are not giving birth to mini-me's and robots. Neither did God. We give birth to children who have minds of their own. How they decide and choose has nothing to do with a pre-calculated decision on the part of the parents. We nuture and guide them but ultimately the decisions are theirs to make. I believe God operates this same way.

[Cato]

Without will there is no choice, without choice there is no good or evil.  If God did not desire our independence of will he would have made us perfect from the start.  Without choice why does Eve take of the fruit against God's dictate?  Does God give one command and then order it broken by another?

I think the majesty of nature alone is sufficient proof of Gods' power and sovereignty that little else is needed.  Human history is just that human, I doubt God decided to directly and overtly intervene when it concerned the ancient jews and then work behind the scenes for everyone else.

Why teach us good and evil if the lesson is purely theoretical?  Destiny, yes God may determine which forks in the road we come to and when, but he leaves it to us to pick which direction from there.  Absolute power does not dictate absolute control, God could, but I think he wouldn't, why bother creating us if we don't love by choice.  As a parent one of the greatest sense of satisfaction is seeing your children grow and become men and women with minds and hearts of their own, this happens over time and not without tribulation and mistakes but there is no other way.  No we are not maters of our own destinies, but neither are we stripped of will or choice.  We think, we exist, we analyze, we reason, we choose, it is why we are human and not just another type of animal.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Cato @ April 30 2008,06:25)

Destiny, yes God may determine which forks in the road we come to and when, but he leaves it to us to pick which direction from there.

I think this is insightful.

I think it's like saying that God gives us clues and hints as to what path would be good, but we do not have to choose it.

I guide my daughter much in the same way, I will put together outfits for her to choose from in her closet (hoping she will choose the more fashionable way to dress). She sees my cues, but chooses to mix and match! Ha! I have to laugh at her sometimes, she is so independent. I also love this about her – I admire her.

And that's just it, if God always chooses for us how can he admire his children?

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 30 2008,04:27)

Tim, if this is true then we should also be able to blame God for our wrong choices.  See where this line of thinking can lead to?  Instead of, “The devil made me do it!”, it would have to read, “God willed me to do it because I didn't have a true choice.”.  Can see it, bro.

Hi Mandy,
As you probably know by now, I do not believe every word that the bible says.
I am playing devils advocate and using scriptures to show those that believe every word of scriptures is correct, that God caused Pharoah to withhold release of the Jews.

But don't you see, even if God did not harden Pharoah's heart,
He certainly caused the need for the choice that Pharoah had to make. My only point is that it is not free will if there is a cause for the choice. And God is in charge of all of the causes.

Hope that is clearer than mud.

Tim

[Not3in1]

Quote (TimothyVI @ April 30 2008,06:31)

My only point is that it is not free will if there is a cause for the choice. And God is in charge of all of the causes. Hope that is clearer than mud.

Oh, gotcha.

Yes, clear as mud. Ha!

But in making choices……he could have let the people go!! Right?

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 30 2008,04:36)

It's my interpretation of the scriptures that if Jesus didn't have a free-will choice to obey God or not – his sacrifice meant NOTHING! In other words, it was all staged. Instead, I believe that God is taking a chance on humanity.  He is betting the farm that the most of us will love him just because.  Just because he gives us air in our lungs and a beautiful world to live in, and precious people who love us.  If we don't love him and choose to give him the big birdie, well, then we miss out on all the good gifts he gives his children.  I certainly don't give gifts to my children when they disobey.  I also don't take their lives or want to harm them.  I don't believe God does this either. I think the writers were mistaken.  Period.

Hi Mandy,
If it was the plan of God from the beginning to have Jesus die for the sins of mankind brought through the disobedience of Adam. How could Jesus have changed it?

Tim

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 30 2008,06:33)

Quote (TimothyVI @ April 30 2008,06:31) My only point is that it is not free will if there is a cause for the choice. And God is in charge of all of the causes. Hope that is clearer than mud. Oh, gotcha. Yes, clear as mud.  Ha! But in making choices……he could have let the people go!!  Right?

Hi Mandy,

In that particular instance the bible says that he could not make the choice to let the people go because God would not let him.

Tim

[Not3in1]

Tim wrote:

Hi Mandy,
If it was the plan of God from the beginning to have Jesus die for the sins of mankind brought through the disobedience of Adam. How could Jesus have changed it?
****************************************

He could have said, “Dad, here's the thing, I found a hot Jewish girl and I want to get married – settle down in Nazareth and get a house.”

The whole idea of the SACRIFICE is that it was one……..

[Not3in1]

Quote (TimothyVI @ April 30 2008,06:37)

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 30 2008,06:33) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 30 2008,06:31) My only point is that it is not free will if there is a cause for the choice. And God is in charge of all of the causes. Hope that is clearer than mud. Oh, gotcha. Yes, clear as mud.  Ha! But in making choices……he could have let the people go!!  Right? Hi Mandy, In that particular instance the bible says that he could not make the choice to let the people go because God would not let him. Tim

Yep, clear as mud.

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 30 2008,06:37)

Tim wrote: Hi Mandy, If it was the plan of God from the beginning to have Jesus die for the sins of mankind brought through the disobedience of Adam. How could Jesus have changed it? **************************************** He could have said, “Dad, here's the thing, I found a hot Jewish girl and I want to get married – settle down in Nazareth and get a house.” The whole idea of the SACRIFICE is that it was one……..

Then God's plan would have failed?
I wonder what plan two was.

Tim

[Not3in1]

Jesus WAS actually plan “B”, remember?

[Not3in1]

To me, if Jesus didn't have a choice, his sacrifice means nothing to me. Nothing.

Even as I type this there is a stinge of fear attached to the first sentence. But it's true nonetheless.

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 30 2008,06:38)

Quote (TimothyVI @ April 30 2008,06:37) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 30 2008,06:33) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 30 2008,06:31) My only point is that it is not free will if there is a cause for the choice. And God is in charge of all of the causes. Hope that is clearer than mud. Oh, gotcha. Yes, clear as mud.  Ha! But in making choices……he could have let the people go!!  Right? Hi Mandy, In that particular instance the bible says that he could not make the choice to let the people go because God would not let him. Tim Yep, clear as mud.

Like I said, I no longer believe that every word of the bible is the truth. I think that the writers believed that God made everyone do everything that they did. Except when it came to being wicked when they did not believe in Yahweh. Then it was their own fault and they should be killed.

Tim

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 30 2008,06:48)

Jesus WAS actually plan “B”, remember?

O.K. Then if Jesus had backed out. What was plan “C”?
Do you thik that God had another plan just in case Jesus did not do what He was supposed to do?

Tim

[GeneBalthrop]

To All…… can any of the free will thinkers explain this.

“the gentiles who have not the law, but do the things contained in them, showing the law written on their heart (MIND) by the hand of God……> question did the gentiles by their own “free will” to this or did God do it?

martian on the trinity web page said i was taking things out of context when i quoted where God said ” he would take out of them the stony heart and give them a heart of flesh, when i implied God did it. See this is the problem with much of our communications. I was not taking anything out of contextual inference at all. God Does take Hardness out and give hearts of Flesh, not only with Israel but with Gentiles, in fact He can and will do this with all humanity eventually, as i have shown he also did it with the gentiles…..where is free will mentioned here, it isn't because “God does (ALL THINGS) after the council of his
(OWN WILL) and causes His Creation to conform to it. Scripture shows this over and over again. Reuther it be with Pharaoh, Israel, Gentiles, Jesus, you, me, or anything else He is creating and bringing about our destiny's despite what we may think. There is no Free Will only cause and effect. God causes salvation the effect will be, all will be saved Period, and it has nothing to do with our so Called (FREE WILLS). We did not choose God God chose us. “not hat we loved God but that He loved US”, and again the Carnal Mind (the one we are born with) is Enmity to God (the carnal mind hates God) and is (NOT) subject unto the laws of God neither indeed can be. Well is our natural carnal minds are enemies of God I doin't think we can by our own “free wills”, choose to love Him can we, something has to (CAUSE) it to happen.

IMO…………………gene

[Not3in1]

Quote (TimothyVI @ April 30 2008,06:56)

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 30 2008,06:48) Jesus WAS actually plan “B”, remember? O.K. Then if Jesus had backed out. What was plan “C”? Do you thik that God had another plan just in case Jesus did not do what He was supposed to do? Tim

Sure. After all, we are told that God's purposes will prevail. If he needed a plan “B”, what makes us think he couldn't have had a plan “C”? It's a curious idea, huh?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 30 2008,06:57)

“the gentiles who have not the law, but do the things contained in them, showing the law written on their heart (MIND) by the hand of God……> question did the gentiles by their own “free will” to this or did God do it?

I remember that when I was learning to drive, my Dad engrained the rules of the road – they were seared to my brain! I knew all the laws of the road (consequently received a 100% on the written exam).

But guess what? Today I nearly aways exceed the speed limit. It's my choice.

God's laws are written on our hearts, but we do not follow them out of a robotic obedience….we follow them…..if we choose to……because we love him.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 30 2008,06:57)

Scripture shows this over and over again.

Above is the culprit for our disharmony!

I agree with ya, bro, the bible does lend itself to both views.

I guess we are left to choose whichever party we like best. No pun intended on the “choose” part!

[GeneBalthrop]

To all……> God's (GRACE) is what causes us to change, it has nothing to do with “free wills”, “For you are (saved) by (grace) and that (NOT) of YOURSELVES, it is a gift of God. Just be thankfull it's that way, put you trust into your Heavenly Father and don't worry about any thing, we are all going to be saved, ” YET AS BY FIRE”

peace and love to you all……………………………….gene

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