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942767……..you present a case that Jesus saved Himself by his own (FREE Choices) I totally disagree with that < Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, The Father in Him, He did the works, but now your saying actually thats not true because he himself did the work by his own free "moral" agency, So He really didn't put himself to death then did he. He put sin to death by his own power of Choice in Him. Nothing could be further from the truth, it was GOD the FATHER in HIM that empowered Jesus to overcome all sin. Without GOD in Him he would have failed Just like all men do.
peace to you………………….gene
GB,
He was put to death by man.
Our sin provided Satan with a legal excuse to execute him, the scapegoat.
Leviticus 16:8
“Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for the scapegoat.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 31 2008,14:21) 942767……..you present a case that Jesus saved Himself by his own (FREE Choices) I totally disagree with that < Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, The Father in Him, He did the works, but now your saying actually thats not true because he himself did the work by his own free "moral" agency, So He really didn't put himself to death then did he. He put sin to death by his own power of Choice in Him. Nothing could be further from the truth, it was GOD the FATHER in HIM that empowered Jesus to overcome all sin. Without GOD in Him he would have failed Just like all men do. peace to you………………….gene
A wonderful post brother Gene, I agree with that fully. There is no will that is free of any influence in this world. Free will is another myth like Incarnation.Thanks and love to you.
With best wishes for a blessed New Year 2009
AdamQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 29 2008,08:32) TJ……….what you are saying is salvation is put in your hands, because you have the ability to chose life and death, right. If that be the case then who need GOD A all. Seeing we can chose our way into salvation by our “so-called” free wills. If GOD is not dong the work in us causing us to make right choices then we ARE our OWN SAVIORS. you cant have it both way And if we have truly had ours wills put to death then there is ONLY ONE WILL that is AT work in that salvation process. Many think that because they, through the Spirit chose GOD way it is their choice thats coming from (THEIR) So-called FREE WILLS. Nothing could be further from the truth, If that we the case then anyone could come to Christ on there own, but scripture says (NO ONE) could come to Christ (UNLESS) the FATHER draw him. and Nick saying intellectual barriers of men have something to do with it is like saying man is in control and GOD is to WEAK to really save someone He choses to. Interestingly you mention robots, i have seen the brought before even on other sites, seams men are fearful of that idea, ever ask yourself why they are. What do you think being in the IMAGE of GOD is , is it not to exactly reflect HIM, not be HIM, but reflect Him. Man hates that idea of reflecting GOD, they want to be a GOD instead, therefore they abhor the idea of GOD CREATING THEM LIKE HIM. They want to think they themselves by their (FREE WILL) do it. nothing could be further from the truth. “FOR YOU ARE (CREATED) UNTO GOOD WORKS, now if you are (CREATED UNTO IT) THEN YOU DID NOT DO IT. Something created requires a CREATOR. God is the CREATOR not any man now or ever will be. So if GOD CREATES me to be exactly like HIM then Call it what ever you want, i will be His robot then and happy to be.
love and peace to you and yours………………gene
Greetings Gene……Salvation is a gift from God…When offered through Grace we have the option to accept it or refuse it….And their will those that will opt to refuse it..Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 29 2008,08:53) TJ…..Show me one scripture that say that every Christian must exercise (THEIR) wills, in fact the opposite is true every Christians will must be put to death, including His own So-called (FREE WILL), and that death comes by the power of GOD in them, not from themselves. IMO. Here something for you and Nick……….”for the kingdom of GOD , is liken unto ten virgins 5 were wise and 5 were foolish”, and when the sound went out the wise took (OIL) in their flasks, but the foolish took none , answer that and you will have your answer. Notice they were all considered Virgins .
peace and love ……………….gene
love and peace……………………gene
Greetings Gene……Their is no scripture that says every Christian must exercise his/her free will….What scripture does say is that even those in christ sin….and sin is something we do because we are carnal,however,with the help of Gods spirit we can overcome and choose not to sin if we so desire…and that choice is exercised by our option to succumb to temptation or not…..Until such time as we are in the presense of God in a glorified body,sin will be a part of our existance and so will the option not to….which speaks to our ability to choose right from wrong…TJ…….lets just say with the help of GOD spirit we are (CAUSED) to overcome. “For by (GRACE) God's influencing on the heart, you are saved and that (NOT) of or from (YOURSELF), it is a gift of GOD”, that says it in a nut shell. There is no such thing as (FREE) WILLS there is only (INFLUENCED) Wills. Even our influenced Wills must be put to death. that only God's WILL will be done. That God may be all and in all. “Thy kingdom come (Thy Will) be Done.” There will be (ONLY ONE) Will and that WILL will cause the effect of Peace and love for all . Even God does not have a Free Will but does all things after the council of (HIS WILL) His will influences Him and causes Him to do what he does. FREE has nothing to do with it. WE don't chose to Freely to do what we do, we are caused to do it by the influencing thats in us.
False religion Hates the idea of no (FREE WILLS) because man wants to be a GOD Himself and despises the SOVEREIGNTY of GOD.He likes to think He by His so-called Free Choices saved Himself. But many scriptures show that not true. Unless God moves on a person and causes him the chose differently He never will. Its all by (GRACE) God's influencing on the heart , Jesus Christ a man (full) of GRACE.
love and peace to you and your TJ……………………gene
Hi TJ,
Here is another version of man trying to save himself.
He proclaims his salvation and says all he thinks and does is now of God and grace.It is a sad commentary.
Nick………still lying about people i see, must be in the blood , why can't you ever represent what i say truthfully. Your idiot remarks about what i say only show you stupidity and ignorance of Scriptures.
Here is something that fits you Nick……Gal 4:28 And we, brethren, as Issac, are Children of promise, but as then he who was born according to the flesh did (PERSECUTED) him who was born after the Spirit, SO ALSO NOW. But what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bond woman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman. You believe in the covenant of fear right Nick? We are not under that Covenant of bondage through the operation of FEAR, and Have not received a Spirit of (Fear) as you profess you have, But we have received the Spirit of Power and of a Sound mind.
and truly that is a sad commentary
love and peace ……………………….gene
GB,
You should not boast of superior knowledge.
Scripture is truth and we can find what we need there thanks.Nick………..and you should not be so Jealous of others and climb down off your high tower of pride. And learn not to lie about what people are saying. (please show us where i have ever (BOASTED) of “SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE”> And scripture is truth and you seem to only find what fits you own personal GOSPEL and reject the rest I noticed, As other have told you before not just me.
love and peace to you Nick…………………….gene
GB,
You cannot accuse others of ignorance and stupidity without believing you suffer from neither.Now you add pride and jealousy to the list? Why persecute yourself?
We are followers of Jesus and not Socrates.
nick ………..no one has all knowledge i full well know that , but when you falsely accuse us of saying thing we are not saying. Then that makes you a lier and arrogant and proud , why don't you rather fear to make false statement about what people say. Your not to bear (FALSE WITNESSES) Nick. And i will guarantee you your the last person here i would be jealous of brother. Again please show us where i boasted of “Superior Knowledge” if you can. And quite skirting the issues presented. Your assumption only show what your made of Nick. I have seen you time and time and time again misquote and falsely accuse myself as well as others here of things they are not saying as well as trying to put them down.
Hardly a fruit of the spirit……….love and peace……………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 01 2009,17:07) TJ…….lets just say with the help of GOD spirit we are (CAUSED) to overcome. “For by (GRACE) God's influencing on the heart, you are saved and that (NOT) of or from (YOURSELF), it is a gift of GOD”, that says it in a nut shell. There is no such thing as (FREE) WILLS there is only (INFLUENCED) Wills. Even our influenced Wills must be put to death. that only God's WILL will be done. That God may be all and in all. “Thy kingdom come (Thy Will) be Done.” There will be (ONLY ONE) Will and that WILL will cause the effect of Peace and love for all . Even God does not have a Free Will but does all things after the council of (HIS WILL) His will influences Him and causes Him to do what he does. FREE has nothing to do with it. WE don't chose to Freely to do what we do, we are caused to do it by the influencing thats in us. False religion Hates the idea of no (FREE WILLS) because man wants to be a GOD Himself and despises the SOVEREIGNTY of GOD.He likes to think He by His so-called Free Choices saved Himself. But many scriptures show that not true. Unless God moves on a person and causes him the chose differently He never will. Its all by (GRACE) God's influencing on the heart , Jesus Christ a man (full) of GRACE.
love and peace to you and your TJ……………………gene
Greetings Gene……Grace….The kind,loving,merciful,forgiving nature that is God….And yes we are saved by grace and not works,however,the grace that God bestows on us helps us to overcome….When you think about it ? TO OVERCOME….This term suggests a conflict,of which we have prevailed….In this conflict,at the very least we had to exercise the will power to prevail….The other option was to choose not to fight….This would be a task that would require free will….other wise there would not have been a conflict…God is good and he is GRACIOUS,when we seek him and his help…He did say he would never allow temptation to exceed our ability to prevail,however we must choose to fight and that decision is the exercise of a free will…..Indeed tj,
Having stated that will is never completely free by a flick of the wrist all men become robots and then all are saved.I have heard some great fairytales but this takes the cake.
Any nobody ever needs to take any responsility.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 02 2009,19:44) Indeed tj,
Having stated that will is never completely free by a flick of the wrist all men become robots and then all are saved.I have heard some great fairytales but this takes the cake.
Any nobody ever needs to take any responsility.
Greetings Nick…..Perhaps I missed my point and in doing so I have become a purveyor of misinfomation…Salvation comes only through the Grace of God….Men do not have to obey God and most do not…The act of diobedience is a function of a free will…Gods spirit and his gracious mercy affords the man the option to call on him in the moment of trial….The man does not have to call on God….That is a function of a free will…..For those who God is calling…he makes his spirit available through repentance and even Gods spirit filled deciples have the option to reject Gods grace and there are those who do….that is a function of a free will….We all fall short..and sin is a part of our existance…Tj………Jesus said “to him that overcomes (EVEN AS I HAVE) thats the kicker , how did JESUS overcome, was it by his “WILL” or any “FREE WILL”, Scripture say no, it was by the POWER of GOD , he overcame. “for the son of man can do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, fir the Father in HIM does the works. That alone should answer the question . Jesus did not exercise any of HIS WILL free or other wise. But just the opposite HIS WILL was put to death, Jesus own WILL did not want to die, but the one working in him caused him to put his “WILL” to death even the death of the cross. as Scripture Shows. There is no Such thing as a (FREE WILL) no where in scripture is there mentioned any at all. There is influenced WILL but far from (FREE).
Man has in him a desire to be His own savior by His own FREE WILL Choices but scripture shown (NO one ever on his own Chose GOD'S way by their OWN FREE WILLS. God said he looked for (ONE) righteous Person and could find (NONE) NOT EVEN ONE. So he took it upon HIS OWN ARM to bring salvation.
Tj … the issue here boils down to how SOVEREIGN IS GOD< Man hates the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD. Wants to believe His choices save him , pure hog wash, man choices only destory him. "there seems a way unto man thats right, but the end there of is SIN AND DEATH." imo
love and peace to you and yours…………………gene
Quote (theodorej @ Jan. 02 2009,19:32) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 01 2009,17:07) TJ…….lets just say with the help of GOD spirit we are (CAUSED) to overcome. “For by (GRACE) God's influencing on the heart, you are saved and that (NOT) of or from (YOURSELF), it is a gift of GOD”, that says it in a nut shell. There is no such thing as (FREE) WILLS there is only (INFLUENCED) Wills. Even our influenced Wills must be put to death. that only God's WILL will be done. That God may be all and in all. “Thy kingdom come (Thy Will) be Done.” There will be (ONLY ONE) Will and that WILL will cause the effect of Peace and love for all . Even God does not have a Free Will but does all things after the council of (HIS WILL) His will influences Him and causes Him to do what he does. FREE has nothing to do with it. WE don't chose to Freely to do what we do, we are caused to do it by the influencing thats in us. False religion Hates the idea of no (FREE WILLS) because man wants to be a GOD Himself and despises the SOVEREIGNTY of GOD.He likes to think He by His so-called Free Choices saved Himself. But many scriptures show that not true. Unless God moves on a person and causes him the chose differently He never will. Its all by (GRACE) God's influencing on the heart , Jesus Christ a man (full) of GRACE.
love and peace to you and your TJ……………………gene
Greetings Gene……Grace….The kind,loving,merciful,forgiving nature that is God….And yes we are saved by grace and not works,however,the grace that God bestows on us helps us to overcome….When you think about it ? TO OVERCOME….This term suggests a conflict,of which we have prevailed….In this conflict,at the very least we had to exercise the will power to prevail….The other option was to choose not to fight….This would be a task that would require free will….other wise there would not have been a conflict…God is good and he is GRACIOUS,when we seek him and his help…He did say he would never allow temptation to exceed our ability to prevail,however we must choose to fight and that decision is the exercise of a free will…..
Hi TJ:Very good explanation. Anyone should be able to understand this.
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