Free Will?

[gollamudi]

Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 09 2008,05:33)

Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 08 2008,23:53) Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 08 2008,16:42) Hi Sis Meerkat, Welcome to this wonderful family of God, Heavennet. I find your thoughts are rational and in line with the scriptures. Do share more from the treasury of God's wisdom. I agree with you and brother Gene on this another myth called 'free will' given to human beings. God is the potter and we are the clay. The clay doesn't have its choice to choose its destiny. Its destiny depends on the mind of the potter. May God continue to bless you with more insights. Thanks and love to you Adam Greetings G…..I have examined your premise with resprct to the potter and yes in a literal sense your interpretation of the scriptures are correct….Now lets examine the premise…If we had no freedom to choose right from wrong why would God have given us his law and the commandments…Why would he make wisdom available to us on request….Why would he want to show us evil in the face of good….We are indeed the clay and God can mold us as he sees fit but when the molding is finished our utility is determined by what we can retain…We could hold liquid or we could crack….If we do not have the freedom to choose good over evil we would be the same as programable robots… Hi Theo, I think it is a bit of both, we are definitely clay being molded – God says so, also we certainly do have the choice to obey or rebel, so NOT robots however with all our choices if we rebel we reap wrath and wrath abides until repentance, upon repentance is mercy. That is the formula that you see throughout the bible starting from Adam. Command – choice – rebellion – wrath – repentance – mercy – obedience If there is no rebellion there is no mercy. And we are told all have sinned. All need to repent (knee bow, submit, obey) then will come mercy.      Where theology runs rampant is where one part is taken out of context “we are clay being molded”  and made into a dogma that says that because we are clay we have no choice.  Or the opposite scenario we have will, we can rebel, so we can rebel forever, wrath must be forever so no mercy for those who have not repented by their physical death, so Gods mercy is dependant on our choice.   It is the same with 1 Cor 15:21-28 Most christians have been taught that the sequence ends at verse 23 and the rest is just assigned to the rubbish tip (gehenna, hell, fiery eternal torment)  – God has forgotton about his plan of the redemption of the whole world and will just rescue the elect/chosen.

Hi Sis Meerkat,
Thanks for that helping hand in replying our brother Theodarej. In fact we have choices to choose but they are not free like the so called free will. We are told to be led by the Spirit of God, then I ask our brother Theodarej where is this so called free will when I am led by somebody. Finally as you(Meerkat) have rightly told earlier we do have choices to choose but under the influence of somebody; may be the Holy Spirit or our own flesh nature.

May God bless you
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
Automatic leading?
Gal3

1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Gal5
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

It seems some never learn to walk in The Spirit.
Gal4
19My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

[gollamudi]

Not so brother Nick.. we do have choices to choose but under the influence of somebody/something as I have told.

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
So being led by the Spirit is a choice.

[gollamudi]

Influenced choice not any free will my brother.

[NickHassan]

HiGm,
Did you always do as your mother told you?
She was wiser than you.

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam……….Nick thinks thinks the fruit of the Spirit is a self choice that comes from the Self, He doesn't understand (ALL) choices are influenced ones, the CARNAL MIND (the one were born with) does not on it own repent and chose GOD way, ” the CARNAL mind is an enmity to God is not subject to the laws of God neither indeed can Be” the only thing the Carnal mind will chose is whats in it, and whats in it is what it received from the world as John said,”for all thats in the world , the lust of the flesh and lust of the eyes and the pride of life are from the world”, that is what a CARNAL mind will Chose because thats all thats in it.

But those who have the Spirit of GOD abiding in them chose what the spirit influences them to chose, it the work of GRACE (God's influencing on the heart) that gives repentance and causes change, it is not a work of our so-call “free wills”. Salvation is a work of GOD not Us, least any boast, “for we are (CREATED) unto good works. Those who accredit to themselves righteous works will have to inter into the (fire of GOD) intense Judgments even as our brother JOB had to, then they will know its not their works that save them , but GOD (ALONE). Then they will say as Job, Now i have seen you with my own eyes wherefore I abhorrer (MYSELF).

But you that understand this, do not look to (YOURSELVES) put you trust in GOD for he (ALONE) is GOOD. Remember He said I am Found by them that seek me. Lets look intently For Him and open wide our mouths that He may fill it, be just as the little baby birds who wait for the nourishment the their mother brings them, so also reckon yourselves as gathering strength and nourishment from GOD (ALONE). If we do this we will be living as Christ Jesus did.

Love and peace to you and yours Adam……………….gene

[meerkat]

Gene,

A thought that has been on my mind is when do we get the “mind of the spirit” to be able to understand, I have been wondering if there are parallels between physical and spiritual birth?- at birth are we given a spark that when we choose to try to understand spiritual things that we are conceived of the Holy Spirit?

[NickHassan]

Hi MK,
We must be reborn of the Spirit.

Lk11
9And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

10For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

11If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

We must find the fountain that rises up to eternal life[jn7] before the cord breaks and the bucket falls to the bottom of the well.
Ecc12
6Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

[meerkat]

Nick,

Yes, I agree we need to be reborn of the Spirit – was wondering about timing/process.

[NickHassan]

Hi MK,
Submitting to scripture and letting the Spirit teach from within according to scripture and by coming against and throwing down the worlds speculations and our carnal ideas

[NickHassan]

Hi MK,
2 peter 1
” 19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Feed on scripture till the Spirit of Christ rules and leads.

[meerkat]

Can spirit be destroyed? Gehenna is to destroy the body and soul – the spirit that returns to God I am thinking is the remnant that is to be saved – the part that gets planted in corruption raised in glory.

[NickHassan]

Hi MK,
No.
The spirit returns to God.
ecc12

7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Meantime it which really belongs to God allows God to know us and for us to know ourselves.

Proverbs 20:27
The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

1cor2
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

[meerkat]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 11 2008,04:55)

Hi MK, Submitting to scripture and letting the Spirit teach from within according to scripture and by coming against and throwing down the worlds speculations and our carnal ideas

Nick

I am looking for scripture to refute/support my ideas – I am not building anything on my ideas – the ideas are just that ideas. Thats why I asked it as a question.

It would be helpful instead of saying you are wrong, so don't think  – if you gave relevant scripture.    

[NickHassan]

Hi MK,
Who said you are wrong?
You show a cautious and respectful approach to finding truth.

Keep going.

I showed you 2 peter 1

[meerkat]

Nick,

Thanks for the scripture – that says that the spirit of man knows the things of God – also we are told the natural man can not receive the things of God

1Cr 2:14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

It seems there is something inside of all natural man that can receive the things of God – that spirit part that returns to God do you think it retains any of us in it?

[NickHassan]

Hi Mk,
No it says the spirit of man knows man and we need the Spirit of God to know God.

1cor2
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

We first need to receive the Spirit of God before we are useful for much else.[Lk11]

[NickHassan]

Hi MK,
The spirit we are given gives us life.

Jas2
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

But we are soul in a body, integrated as a being till death

[meerkat]

But Adam,

When are we given the ability to desire to seek/understand – if we are not given it at birth and we naturally can not do it? If that spirit is not given to everyone to have the ability to seek then not everyone has the chance to repent and so Christ did not die for everyone but only the ones that are given the spirit of God.

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