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Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 09 2008,06:14) Yes some are obviously used for good and some for evil and some are a mixture of both, some accept and obey, some rebel. What God uses them for is not a reflection on the ultimate destiny – the climax of Gods plan – that even you say is inscrutible. Rebellion reaps wrath, repentance/obedience obtains mercy.
Hi MK,
These are in the great house of God.
Not all enter that placeQuote (meerkat @ Dec. 09 2008,06:22) Nick, Are you thinking that if someone who has not believed obtains mercy after their physical death that it take away from your salvation, does it make you think that there is no purpose to your repentance? That you can be rebellious and obtain mercy later – the only thing is if you are called to repentance and don't repent wrath remains until repentance.
The parable of the vineyard
Matt 20:1-16 “For the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who was the master of a household, who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. He went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace. To them he said, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went their way. Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise. About the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle. He said to them, ‘Why do you stand here all day idle?’ “They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ “He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and you will receive whatever is right.’ When evening had come, the lord of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning from the last to the first.’ “When those who were hired at about the eleventh hour came, they each received a denarius. When the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise each received a denarius. When they received it, they murmured against the master of the household, saying, ‘These last have spent one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat!’ “But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Didn’t you agree with me for a denarius? Take that which is yours, and go your way. It is my desire to give to this last just as much as to you. Isn’t it lawful for me to do what I want to with what I own? Or is your eye evil, because I am good?’ So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Hi MK,
No God chooses good and bad to sit at the wedding feast with the martyrs and prophets and servants.Matthew 22:10
So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.God is Sovereign and none has any advantage.
Hi MK,
These are in the great house of God.
Not all enter that place[/quote]I disagree, this is not talking about the great house of God, it is talking about us needing to sanctify ourselves to be used for good of God and not be vessels of wrath – to be reborn now, to be judged now.
What is flesh is flesh – flesh does not enter the kingdom of God. In Gods kingdom there are not vessels of dishonour.
I agree that not all enter into the kingdom of God now.
In the Jewish wedding after the wedding ceremony there are children born. When Jesus comes to marry his bride (after gathering the elect for 2000years ) is that the end of the story or after the wedding is that when he rules until all is subject/submissive and more children are born into his kingdom. Which is Gods kingdom because Jesus is subject to God and is doing Gods will.
In scripture Jesus is said to rule with a rod of iron, also the elect are said to rule with a rod of iron.
Hi MK,
20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
So a human vessel must be purged and sanctified that the Spirit of God can use it. We must be washed inside and out that God can live in us. Cooperation with grace enables such actions.
The bride of Christ does not include all men
Rev212And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
I agree that the bride of Christ is not all men – however Christ and the bride will be reigning and will bring all into submission so that God can be all in all. They will be birthing more sons of God by the Spirit.
Also if you read on from there Rev 21:27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 22:1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.After those abominable things are outside there are waters that come out of throne and trees are growing and the leaves of the trees are for the healing of the nations
Revelation does not end with the passage that you quoted.
The whole point is what is flesh is flesh and does not inherit the kingdom of God.
Hi MK,
Most will still be dead when Jesus reigns with his brothers.
The rest are raised to judgement after that 1000 yr reign.
Rev20
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Nick the leaves on the trees that are for the healing of the nations – when are the nations healed – are they ever?
Hi MK:
Please give me your understanding of the following scriptures to which you refer:
Quote It is the same with 1 Cor 15:21-28 Most christians have been taught that the sequence ends at verse 23 and the rest is just assigned to the rubbish tip (gehenna, hell, fiery eternal torment) – God has forgotton about his plan of the redemption of the whole world and will just rescue the elect/chosen. Thanks
Quote (942767 @ Dec. 09 2008,12:00) Hi MK: Please give me your understanding of the following scriptures to which you refer:
Quote It is the same with 1 Cor 15:21-28 Most christians have been taught that the sequence ends at verse 23 and the rest is just assigned to the rubbish tip (gehenna, hell, fiery eternal torment) – God has forgotton about his plan of the redemption of the whole world and will just rescue the elect/chosen. Thanks
1Cr 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Cr 15:23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Cr 15:24Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Cr 15:25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cr 15:26The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
1Cr 15:27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Cr 15:28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.The same word used for all things being subdued to Christ, him putting all things under his feet is used for Christ being subject to his Father
G5293
ὑποτάσσω
hupotassō
hoop-ot-as'-so
From G5259 and G5021; to subordinate; reflexively to obey: – be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.My understanding is I believe what is stated:- that In adam all die (everybody body and soul) and that IN Christ all will live (born again by the spirit of God)
It seems that to believe in eternal torment you need to think that the end in verse 24 onwards is not part of the reconciliation each in their own order that is being talked about in the previous verses and that the enemies being subdued are actually tormented eternally and not made to be submissive and bowing their knees in obedience.
Hi MK,
I think that within THE END [v24] encompasses the second resurrection and the final rescue of the other sheep [Mt25] with the casting of the residue of mankind into the lake of fire.It does not imply that the scenes shown in Mt 25 or rev 20-21 were untrue, and that Jesus was a liar, which would have to be the case if your theory is correct that all are saved.
Quite the reverse Jesus is the truth and salvation is in him
Nick
I am not going to cut and paste scripture to make it fit theology.
Revelation is a HIGHLY symbolic book – Jesus spoke a lot of the time in parables and his words had deeper meaning than sheep and goats being cast into a literal lake of fire to be tormented eternally while still being alive. Symbols, allegories, figures of spech and parables are not LITERALLY true.
Hi MK,
Who decides what is true?
Should scripture not be allowed to say so?
Jesus explained when he was using parables but men want to hide a pile of false teachings under such claims.Nick,
When you say things like “casting of the residue of mankind into the lake of fire” do you feel any compassion for those people, would you give your life for those people, do you feel any mercy?
Nick
I read scripture and let it say what it says, I try not to pull bits out of context and if something is a symbol I don't take it as literal.
I am seeking the truth and only the truth.
HI mk,
God is cleansing His creation and in His wisdom has deigned who will receive mercy.
We do not judge Him or His decisions but say it as He gives it in His revelation.First call is for those repentant, obedient and found in Christ Jesus by water and the Spirit.
Second is by mercy alone-a cup of water given to the brothers of Jesus.
Third those good and bad from the highways and bywaysSome do not make the cut but others do-even unexpectedly-Mt 25
Blessed are the merciful-they will find mercy too.
Thankfully …………….
Proverbs 16:9 says, “A man’s heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.”
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