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Tim, Chosenone, Mandy, Colter, Nick, Gollomudi, and all………………………> this subject is of Free Will in my opinion is one of the most misunderstood subject in Christendom today. It causes a mindset of who is in charge of our destiny, is it us or God, or both, it also shows to what level is the absolute Sovereignty of God in all things. I think once we get this right in our thinking we will be greatly encouraged , it will get rid of Lot's of anxiety caused by the False teaching of free wills. You will find peace for your souls knowing that God is and always was in Full control. Doesn't it say ” thy Kingdom come Thy WILL be done on earth as it is in Heaven”. You see only one will is done in heaven (not a bunch of free will) and that the way it will be on earth also, if we believe what Jesus said in that prayer. God plainly said He know the end from the beginning , how could He know that if He wasn't bringing it about. Didn't Say my purposes will stand. Why because He will make them stand. And doesn't it say ” For God works in us to will and do His Good pleasure, well if God (works) in us to cause His will to be Done, where is (free will) here. Science as well as psychologist agree that there is cause for every effect and this does not go against scripture also. Jesus said (NO) man (CAN COME) unto me (UNLESS) the FATHER draw (drag) Him, where's free will here. And as i have mentioned before Jesus told His deciples they didn't choose Him He Choose then where's free will there. God is not (WILLING) that any Parish, so i believe if He is not Willing and It says God does all things after the council of his own WILL , Thats whu i believe non will Parish.
peace to all who love the truth……………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 29 2008,15:17) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 29 2008,09:51) Quote (Colter @ April 29 2008,09:19) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 29 2008,08:23) I brought this forward for martian and gene. Tim
No, you have no free will, God moved you to bring it forward, it was decided before you were born that you would “bring the thread forward”.
WJ……. what do you call this then, whats your meaning by laughing at people, isn't it because you think what they are saying is stupid to you.Is that not arrogance if not i would like to know what it is then?
And why do you accuse me of not answering your posts show me where i don't answer them, I may not answer all of them because it would take one or two pages to did it. The problem isn't answering your post the problem is answering misquoted posts, as i have told and shown you over and over, adding your own meaning and word to the scriptures you quote, that's the problem. As i said before you do that to divert attention from subject matter and it clouds the issues.
The subject matter we are descusing Here is (FREE WILL) either join in with respect for others or but out.
INO………gene
GBWhere is your sense of humor.
Colter was making a punn, I thought it was funny.
I wasnt laughing at him, I was laughing with him.
And as far as engaging with you on this thread, I have no desire to because you will just turn into more attacks on the Trinitarian view.
Even though its obvious that the concept of free will has nothing to do with the Trinitarian view. We will see how many non-trinitarians disagree with you.
It seems to me GB that whenever you disagree with someone or their doctrine then you always revert back to the trinity and start accusing them of taking part with Trinitarians.
Do you believe that every percieved false doctrine has its roots from a Trinitarian?
You said..,
Quote
The problem isn't answering your post the problem is answering misquoted posts, as i have told and shown you over and over, adding your own meaning and word to the scriptures you quote, that's the problem.The only thing I can gather from this is you think that you are always right, or your doctrine is 100% pure.
What is free will?
I could choose to swear at you,you + you
If I do that I would
Be going against the Spirit of God
That He has given me.At this moment in time
I am trying to mesh my spirit
With God's Spirit that he has granted me.But than again the way I landed onto Heaven Net
To me it was with the help of God.It could be that when you chose God
(I believe all humans must chose rite from wrong)
That you do have free will some of the time
Other times He places sign posts in your path
And other times He takes your hand.With God all things are possible Mat. 19:26
At times I look at this life of ours as an ocean
Some of us are in this strong sea current
Others are tossed out and bob aimlessly about
Or swim with a purpose to an Island
That also has it's own currents.Lineon
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 29 2008,15:59) And as i have mentioned before Jesus told His deciples they didn't choose Him He Choose then where's free will there.
Jesus also asked the disciples if they wanted to leave him? After he explained the eating and drinking many left Jesus and no longer followed him. He turned and asked his dudes if they wanted to leave too? So, there must have been a free will decision that could have been made on behalf of each disciple?I appreciate your passion on this subject. I feel pretty passionate about the topic Conception.
I also think you may have been a bit harsh on Keith. I don't think he is arrogant at all. He speaks his mind, of course, but I always notice that he tries to respect people even though his beliefs are constantly called on the carpet. Anyway, press on brother – bickering always gets us off the topic.
I think you are both wonderful brothers and I have learned a ton from both of you. It hurts my heart to see you bicker.
Love ya,
MandyMandy……But notice the deciples Jesus choose didn't leave Him they all stayed, why because God was causeing then to remain because He choose them to be Apostles and none of them went back did they. God simpley was not calling those who left at that time. So they chose what was all ready in them, and that caused them to leave, it wasn't free will it was lack of God's will. God was giving the apostles awareness the other deciples did not have so they left. But notice when Jesus ask the Apostles if they were going to leave also what was there responce ” where can we go you have the words of life”. You see ther was a difference in awarness of who Jesus was in the apostles. Remember when Jesus ask Peter who he thoughtHe was, he said you art the Christ the son of the linving God, Jesus responded Blessed are you Simion Barjona fore flesh and blood has not reavealed that unto you (Jesus was flesh and Blood), ” But my father in Heaven has revealed it unto you, and I say you art Peter (Jesus also know who peter was also by that same power) and upon this rock i shall build the church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail. What Rock was Jesus talking about, i believe it was the Power of God that can get into a persons mind and cause Him to believe the truth, and cause Him to choose God's Will. Nothing Free about this it's just God's power at work in a person. Free will had nothing to do with it. Its cause and effect at work that keep the deciples with Jesus.
IMO……………gene
WJ…….Naturally i think i am right or why would i debate with you on subject matters. Look i will give you that i have thrown up the trinity thing a lot of times because i believe that is there teachings you push and you seemed to not be offended by that. but if it offends you i will restrain from saying that in a drogatory way toward you personnely, and say i am sorry if i offended you.
peace to you and yours WJ………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 29 2008,17:42) WJ…….Naturally i think i am right or why would i debate with you on subject matters. Look i will give you that i have thrown up the trinity thing a lot of times because i believe that is there teachings you push and you seemed to not be offended by that. but if it offends you i will restrain from saying that in a drogatory way toward you personnely, and say i am sorry if i offended you. peace to you and yours WJ………………………..gene
GBNo offence.
Appology accepted!
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 29 2008,17:24) But notice the deciples Jesus choose didn't leave Him they all stayed, why because God was causeing then to remain because He choose them to be Apostles and none of them went back did they. God simpley was not calling those who left at that time. So they chose what was all ready in them, and that caused them to leave, it wasn't free will it was lack of God's will.
You must realize though, that this idea system you have makes the choices offered in the bible called into question. It almost makes them a joke. If we do not have actual and “for real” abilities to choose of our own initiative, then we are essentially pre-hard-wired-human-robots.Quote (Not3in1 @ April 29 2008,17:59) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 29 2008,17:24) But notice the deciples Jesus choose didn't leave Him they all stayed, why because God was causeing then to remain because He choose them to be Apostles and none of them went back did they. God simpley was not calling those who left at that time. So they chose what was all ready in them, and that caused them to leave, it wasn't free will it was lack of God's will.
You must realize though, that this idea system you have makes the choices offered in the bible called into question. It almost makes them a joke. If we do not have actual and “for real” abilities to choose of our own initiative, then we are essentially pre-hard-wired-human-robots.
not3Agreed!
I doubt that the time, place and circumstances of our births are random, there are reasons and methods behind such things so yes to a certain extent there is a point to the idea of destiny. As the Bard once put it, all the world's a stage, we do not appear to pick part we play but how we play the role given, that is all us and that is how we will be judged. So IMO destiny and free will both can co-exist in some fashion. Destiny involves setting up the situation and choices, free will involves how we meet that situation and the answers we pick to those choices.
In our pride and vanity, we do not want to admit it, but the truth of the scriptures is that every choice we make is a caused choice.
“Freedom of choice” and “free moral agency” are false doctrines that defy the declarations of God.“Mans goings (good and evil) are of the LORD, how can man understand his own way?”
Prov. 20:24
“It is not of him that willeth… but of God” Rom. 9:16
“It is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure” Phil. 2:13
“who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will” Eph. 1:11
“for of Him and through Him and to Him are all things” Rom 11:36Sounds like God causes all of our choices.
Tim
On the other hand there is
Ezekiel 5:6-8
Yet in her wickedness she has rebelled against my laws and decrees more than the nations and countries around her. She has rejected my laws and has not followed my decrees.
“Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: You have been more unruly than the nations around you and have not followed my decrees or kept my laws. You have not even conformed to the standards of the nations around you.Why cause nations to break your own decrees and laws and then lable them wicked and rebels?
Quote (TimothyVI @ June 13 2007,08:03) Hi sscott,
The bible is chock full of proof that mans fabled free will is a myth.
Did the pharoah have any free will when Moses told him to let my people go?
“For the Scripture says unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show My powers in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore has He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens” (Vers. 17-18).Pharaoh did not harden his own heart—God said that He hardened it.
“And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh and he hearkened not unto them, as the Lord had spoken unto Moses” (Ver. 12).
“…it is God [not man] which works in you BOTH TO WILL [God causes us ‘to will’] and TO DO [God causes us ‘to do’] of His good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13).
Tim
Greetings Tim….Pharoah exercised his free will to ignore Moses'warning and decided to dispatch his legions in pursuit and the rest was history…If we are not in possession of a free will there would be no need for discussion we would all be programed as you would a computer…Free will is the principal reason we sin…If it was Gods intention to create programables their would be no need for a savior…Quote (theodorej @ April 30 2008,02:40) Tim[/quote]
Greetings Tim….Pharoah exercised his free will to ignore Moses'warning and decided to dispatch his legions in pursuit and the rest was history…If we are not in possession of a free will there would be no need for discussion we would all be programed as you would a computer…Free will is the principal reason we sin…If it was Gods intention to create programables their would be no need for a savior…
“Pharoah excercised his own free will”, really.Exd 7:13
And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.Exd 9:12
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.Exd 9:35
And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.Why was the heart of Pharaoh hardened? Because the LORD hardened his heart, that is why.
Exd 10:20
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.Exd 10:27
¶But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.Exd 11:9
¶And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt.Why would not Pharoah hearken unto Moses?
Exd 11:10
And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.Because God hardened his heart so that he would not hearken unto Moses, that is why.
Why did God harden Pharoah’s heart and bring all of those plagues and deaths?
Just so the Egyptians would know that He was God. That is why.
Exd 7:3
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.Exd 7:5
And the Egyptians shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.Tim
I guess that my question would be.
Why didn't He just tell them He was God like He did Moses.
Why was it necessary to prove that He could destroy anything that He wanted to.
in order to prove that He was God?Tim
Greetings Tim….Some times during course of everyday living God finds it necessary to deal with individuals and it is always wise when one recognises that God is dealing with some one to not interfere…God was dealing with Pharoah….When you follow the chain of events…initially pharoah was not impressed with the wonders that were demonstrated and infact had matched them in defience….At that time the eternal saw fit to take control of pharoahs free will (hardened his heart)and would not allow him to change his mind after he saw the next demonstration of Gods Power….As you know Pharoah ultimately decided to let the Israelites go,however God was not finished with pharoah…A literal interpretation of the scriptures you cited speaks to your point,however some times we have to set the letter of the word aside while we seek the spirit of the event….That being the consequences for defying the will of God…
Quote (Cato @ April 29 2008,23:40) I doubt that the time, place and circumstances of our births are random, there are reasons and methods behind such things so yes to a certain extent there is a point to the idea of destiny. As the Bard once put it, all the world's a stage, we do not appear to pick part we play but how we play the role given, that is all us and that is how we will be judged. So IMO destiny and free will both can co-exist in some fashion. Destiny involves setting up the situation and choices, free will involves how we meet that situation and the answers we pick to those choices.
This sounds right to me. Thanks, Cato.Quote (TimothyVI @ April 30 2008,00:48) In our pride and vanity, we do not want to admit it, but the truth of the scriptures is that every choice we make is a caused choice.
“Freedom of choice” and “free moral agency” are false doctrines that defy the declarations of God.“Mans goings (good and evil) are of the LORD, how can man understand his own way?”
Prov. 20:24
“It is not of him that willeth… but of God” Rom. 9:16
“It is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure” Phil. 2:13
“who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will” Eph. 1:11
“for of Him and through Him and to Him are all things” Rom 11:36Sounds like God causes all of our choices.
Tim
Tim, if this is true then we should also be able to blame God for our wrong choices. See where this line of thinking can lead to? Instead of, “The devil made me do it!”, it would have to read, “God willed me to do it because I didn't have a true choice.”. Can see it, bro.It's my interpretation of the scriptures that if Jesus didn't have a free-will choice to obey God or not – his sacrifice meant NOTHING!
In other words, it was all staged.
Instead, I believe that God is taking a chance on humanity. He is betting the farm that the most of us will love him just because. Just because he gives us air in our lungs and a beautiful world to live in, and precious people who love us. If we don't love him and choose to give him the big birdie, well, then we miss out on all the good gifts he gives his children. I certainly don't give gifts to my children when they disobey. I also don't take their lives or want to harm them. I don't believe God does this either.
I think the writers were mistaken. Period.
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