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Quote (942767 @ Nov. 10 2008,14:12) Hi Ken: In the article to which you referred this forum, “chapter written by John Piper entitled “Are There Two Wills in God?” , the author speaks of UNCONDITONAL ELECTION of the saved. Do you agree with this statement, and if so, what does that mean to you? Thanks.
God Bless
you have GOT to be kidding me… someone is actually reading something I recommended…!! amazing!! lol…. and look… whats more… you have not been sent straight to Hell, do not pass Go, do not collect 200$…. for doing so!!Seriously though, I do really appreciate you taking the time to read that chapter from Piper, because even if you end up disagreeing with every single thing you read, for if nothing else, you will be educated concerning those you disagree with, and will be able to actually disagree with their true positions, and not straw men or caricatures of their positions, which is the unfortunate habit of some here at this forum….
Do I believe in Unconditional Election…? Yes I do…. let me more specific… I am a Reformed Baptist… that means that my beliefs are not limited to, but include the fact that I am a 5 Point Calvinist…. and THAT means that I believe in TULIP… which stands for:
T otal Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
U nconditional Election
L imited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
I rresistible Grace (all the elect WILL come to God for salvation)
P erseverance of the Saintsblessings,
KenQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 09 2008,05:45) EP…..I do agree with your post on Free Will, and Predestination, and GOD”S GRACE saving Us. God's SOVEREIGNTY is a issue, a grate issue in all Christianity Today. He is sovereign over all things including our salvation. He saves whomsoever He will and Hardens whomsoever He will. Our Salvation is truly a work of GOD ALONE> Understanding a predetermined Salvation shuts all mouths, leaving no room to boast. peace to you and yours…………………….gene
well its good to find at least something to agree on every once in a while …. 😉blessings,
KenQuote (942767 @ Nov. 09 2008,12:58) Quote (epistemaniac @ Nov. 08 2008,16:46) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 08 2008,12:59) Quote (epistemaniac @ Nov. 08 2008,09:30) early on… page 4 or so in this topic, it was brought up by Timothy that God hardened Pharaoh's heart… other counters were made that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, but before any miracle was presented to Pharaoh, before Moses had ever left to confront Pharaoh, God said Exodus 4:21-23 (ESV) Ex 21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord, Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I say to you, “Let my son go that he may serve me.” If you refuse to let him go, behold, I will kill your firstborn son.’ ” So whatever one thinks on this topic, chronologically at least, God had decided to harden Pharaoh's heart prior to Moses ever going to confront him in the first place. blessings,
Ken
Hi Ken:Is what you are saying consitent with the following scripture?
Quote 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. God Bless
well since I quoted scripture, namely Ex. 4:21-23, and since scripture does not contradict itself, then yes is the answer to your question, it is completely consistent with 2 Peter 3:9. In your view, does Peter contradict Moses?As far as God being not willing that any should perish, there are numerous things to say. since God is omnipotent, if He was willing in an absolute sense that none perish, none would, and you would have Universalism. Since we know that not all are saved, then it must be the case that God's “willing” in this passage is a different sort of willing. As it is, it reflects God's moral character, and we see this moral reflection in God's not taking any pleasure in the death of the wicked: Ezekiel 18:32 (ESV) For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.” and Ezekiel 33:11 (ESV) Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?”
So theologians usually distinguish between different kinds of willing. You can read more about this in an excellent excerpt from a 2 volume set of books called “The Grace of God, The Bondage of the Will”, a chapter written by John Piper entitled “Are There Two Wills in God?” available in its entirety for free at http://www.desiringgod.org/Resourc…._in_Godblessings,
Ken
Hi Ken:This is reference sounds like someone is intelligent, but it is a total misrepresentation of God's Word. It will take me some time to go over all of this and get back to you, but I will get back to you with the help of my Father and my God.
God Bless
well I certainly look forward to your showing me precisely how what I said is a total misrepresentation of God's Word… I am really looking forward to that…
blessings,
KenQuote (942767 @ Nov. 10 2008,09:44) Quote (epistemaniac @ Nov. 08 2008,16:48) Thanks for quoting Acts 17:26 in context…. however, I have no idea at all why you did…. lol…. Is there some reason you did this? After all, I can easily read the verse in context within the bible program I used to quote the verse in the first place. blessings,
Ken
Hi Ken:God does not intervene with a person's “free will” to repent and be reconciled to Him through the gospel. Therefore, how is this under God's sovereign control? God knows has seen every thing from the beginning to the end and knows when we come into the world and where we are in the world and when we will leave this world, and the hope is that we will be reconciled to Him sometime between the time we come into the world and leave it.
And so, perhaps now you may understand why I posted this in context. It is easy to pull one verse out and say that this proves that God is sovereign. God can do anything He chooses to do, and He does all that He can do to lead a man to repentance, but it is still up to the individual to make that choice.
God Bless
hey there 942767….you said
Quote God does not intervene with a person's “free will” to repent and be reconciled to Him through the gospel. Really? Who says? Please, provide me with a single verse that says this is the case. God can and does intervene anywhere and any time He wants to, He is God, after all. He intervened in Saul's free will on the road to Damascus, He intervened in Judas' free will when He knew from the beginning who would betray Him, He intervened in Peter's free will when He said to Him Luke 22:31-32 (ESV) Lk 31 “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, 32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”
And really, that is a fascinating study… compare Peter and Judas…. both betrayed their Lord, so what is the difference between them? The difference is this: God. The difference is that Jesus said He would pray for Peter that his faith would not fail, but not so for Judas, who was the appointed one to be the son of perdition.So God is the one who is free to do as He pleases and I sure would not want to be the one to stand before the Almighty God Himself and tell Him what he can and cannot do!! But hey, if you feel comfortable doing that… well… good luck to you… you might want to just read Job and get a head start as to what is going to happen…
And no, I still do not know why you posted the verses surrounding that text in Acts, because all I was saying was that one aspect of God's sovereignty included God seeing every thing from the beginning to the end…. knowing when we come into the world and where we are in the world and when we will leave this world… which you have agreed with…
you said
Quote and the hope is that we will be reconciled to Him sometime between the time we come into the world and leave it. here's the thing…. God does not have to “hope” for anything…. He is not sitting up in heaven wring His hands just hoping and wiating to see whether or not Johnny or Susy will be saved or not. To think so directly contradicts what has already been established, namely that God knows everything, including the future, so He already knows whether or not Johnny or Susy will be saved.
Another point to take from that passage in Acts is this: God controls the times and places where we live… right? We agree on that. Well guess what… God knows at what times and in what places the gospel will be preached. therefore He decides to allow some persons to be born in times and in places where some will never hear the gospel. No one MUST believe on Jesus in order to be saved. But no one can believe on Jesus if they have never heard. Therefore all who never hear are lost. This is yet another example of God's sovereignty, alongside the truth of election and predestination.
blessings,
kenQuote (epistemaniac @ Nov. 10 2008,14:39) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 10 2008,14:12) Hi Ken: In the article to which you referred this forum, “chapter written by John Piper entitled “Are There Two Wills in God?” , the author speaks of UNCONDITONAL ELECTION of the saved. Do you agree with this statement, and if so, what does that mean to you? Thanks.
God Bless
you have GOT to be kidding me… someone is actually reading something I recommended…!! amazing!! lol…. and look… whats more… you have not been sent straight to Hell, do not pass Go, do not collect 200$…. for doing so!!Seriously though, I do really appreciate you taking the time to read that chapter from Piper, because even if you end up disagreeing with every single thing you read, for if nothing else, you will be educated concerning those you disagree with, and will be able to actually disagree with their true positions, and not straw men or caricatures of their positions, which is the unfortunate habit of some here at this forum….
Do I believe in Unconditional Election…? Yes I do…. let me more specific… I am a Reformed Baptist… that means that my beliefs are not limited to, but include the fact that I am a 5 Point Calvinist…. and THAT means that I believe in TULIP… which stands for:
T otal Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
U nconditional Election
L imited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
I rresistible Grace (all the elect WILL come to God for salvation)
P erseverance of the Saintsblessings,
Ken
Hi Ken:And so, what do you mean by unconditional election?
What I would like to see is the Word of God taught in truth and that we as Christians would come into that unity. Jesus prayed that we would be “ONE” as He and the Father are “ONE”. I am also praying asking God to correct me if I am teaching anything that is not His Word and if I am doing anything that is not His will.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 10 2008,12:44) Hi CO,
Who is WE?
Which of your gospels is that of the grace of God?
Nick.
1.Cor.15:10 …Yet, in the grace of God I am what I am, and His (Gods) grace, which is in me (Paul), did not come to be for naught, but more exceedingly than all of them toil I — yet not I, but the grace of God which is with me.“Grace” a benefit bestowed on one who deserves the oposite, sometimes better rendered 'favor'.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 10 2008,17:08) Hi CO,
So Paul and the saved.
But all are not saved except in the unwise speculations of men.
Nick.
1Cor.15:28 …Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.Scripture disagrees with you.
Blessings.
Hi CO,
All men who have ever lived will not be included in the ALL you quote.
You speak of the remnant.
Context.Hi Ken:
I said:
God does not intervene with a person's “free will” to repent and be reconciled to Him through the gospel.
And you said:
Really? Who says? Please, provide me with a single verse that says this is the caseThis is implied by the following verses relative to repentance, and there are others which I could post as well, but this should do.
Act 17:27 “that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,
Act 17:30 “The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Rom 2:4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
You mentioned the experience of the Apostle Paul on the road to Damsacus, and the Lord shurely got his attention, but it was still the Apostle Paul who said:
Quote Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And about Judas the scripture states:
Quote Jhn 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him; Quote Jhn 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. How do those scriptures indicate that God intervened with his “free will”.
God has forseen what will happen from the beginning to the end, and He knows who will be saved and who will not, but each event has to manifest itself. I will give you an example from the book of Genesis. God knew from the beginning that man would sin and that he would corrupt himself, yet he said:
Quote Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heartThe difference between Judas and the Apostle Peter is that Judas was a thief and betrayed Jesus for money whereas the Apostle Peter denied the Lord because he was fearful of the punishment he would receive if he acknowledged that he knew Jesus and that he was one of his disciples. Jesus prayed for him, but he did not intervene with his “free will” otherwise he could have prevented him from denying him. He did not, but as you quoted the scripture, Jesus said:
Quote Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat:
Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.I understand that the Apostle Peter was crucified upside down when he died. Judas hung himself.
God has said:
Quote Eze 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? Quote Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. Jesus said:
Quote Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.I don't tell God what to do, but he does answer my prayers, and so, I am asking Him to give you revelation knowledge of the truth in His Word. I know that He, therefore, will make the truth available to you whether or not you will accept it is your choice.
God Bless
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 11 2008,05:32) Hi CO,
All men who have ever lived will not be included in the ALL you quote.
You speak of the remnant.
Context.
Nick.
Last time I looked in the dictionary, ALL means ALL. Is it wise to change scripture to your liking?Blessings.
Hi CO,
ALL depends on context.
Do these speak of all men who have ever lived?Acts 1:14
These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.Acts 2:1
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.Acts 2:45
And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.Acts 3:9
And all the people saw him walking and praising God:Hi CO,
This is a command to ALL from the time of Christ.
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:Hi CO,
So you need to ADD to scripture to explain it?
There is no THAT in the verse is there?
We should not add to scripture.942747…….. And Paul Killed Christians and persecuted them, How was His so-called, (FREE WILL) Changed, Did he just one day decide to serve Jesus whom he was persecuting out of His own “FREE WILL”. I think not . imo
peace……………..gene
Very good point my brother Gene,
People who think they are having free will they have to disagree with St Paul.We all do know that God is who made us and who is in charge. But He does give us a choice to follow Him or not. It is our choice to believe in the trinity or not. Our choice to believe that Jesus came down from Heaven died for us. God is not forcing us at all. He wants Children that love Him by their choice. In that sense we all have a free will.
Peace and Love Irene
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