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To all….> does the scriptures teach Free Will, in my opinion there is no such thing as (FREE WILL) . Free will was an invention of Man to take the place of GOD's SOVERIGNTY, it gives man control over his destiny. Man wants to be GOD so He gives His self the power to control His destiny. No one Freely chooses GOD, GOD chooses them, even Jesus told His deciples they didn't choose HIM, He chose them.
No one who God chose for a purpose failed, even Judas was choosen for the purpose he performed. Jesus plainly said no man could come to Him unless the Father draw (DRAG) him. We are (created) unto good works, we doint chose our way to good works. People who push the Free Will thing are playing GOD and stealing GOD'S SOVERIGNTY. Churches use it for a means of control over people by inserting themselves between the people and GOD. They want people to think their destiny depends on them, not GOD.IMO………gene
Quote (joejoe @ Nov. 25 2003,05:38) GOD CHOOSES MAN, MAN DOES NOT CHOOSE GOD Do you deny the total depravity of man, and hold that the will of man is free and has the ability to choose Christ and the salvation that is in Him? Such teaching is false and delusive since the Scriptures represent election as occurring in the past, irrespective of personal merit.
'The children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her, the elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated' (Romans 9: 11-13).
The unregenerate person has no free will of spiritual matters. This means they can do nothing pertaining to their salvation. This is because of the Fall. God told Adam, if you eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt surely die. Obviously, Adam didn't die as we think of people dying today because Adam went on to live for hundreds of years. Adam died a spiritual death. But through his fall he brought spiritual death upon himself and all his posterity. He thereby plunged himself and the entire race into spiritual ruin and lost for himself and his descendants the ability to make right choices in the spiritual realm. His descendants are still free to choose – every man makes choices throughout life – but inasmuch as Adam's offspring are born with sinful natures, they do not have the ability to choose spiritual good over evil. Consequently, man's will is no longer free from the dominion of sin as Adam's will was free before the fall. Instead, man's will, as a result of inherited depravity, is in bondage to his sinful nature.
It is quite evident that many unsaved people, when judged by man's standards, do possess admirable qualities and do perform virtuous acts. But in the spiritual realm, when judged by God's standards, the unsaved sinner is incapable of good. The natural man is enslaved to sin; he is a child of Satan, rebellious toward God, blind to truth, corrupt, and unable to save himself or to prepare himself for salvation. In short, the unregenerate man is dead in sin, and his will is enslaved to his evil nature. The will of man is free only to choose according to his moral nature, and as his nature is under the dominion of sin, man chooses accordingly.
'The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned' (I Cor. 2: 14).
'No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day' (John 6: 44).
'Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto Me, except it were given unto him of My Father. From that time many of His disciples went back and walked no more with Him' (John 6: 65, 66).
'All who are born again are said to be 'born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God' (John 1: 13).
The sovereignty of God's choice comes out clearly in the statement that Christ died for His people while they were yet sinners (Romans 5: 8). Therefore do not take the choice out of the hands of God and place it in your own hands.
Joejoe…….I agree with what you are saying. There is (NO) Free will, there's God Will and thats all there is to it. Man can try to impose his will all he wan't, but in the end it's God's will that will be done.peace to you and yours…….gene
There's God's will and purpose and then there are our choices and plans. God gives us the option to choose our destiny. If we are saved or unsaved is up to us. I believe that God through his mercy lets us have choice or free-will to make decisions and/or choices in our lives. God's will will be fulfilled no matter what.
Proverbs 19:21
21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.acertainchap………> tell me is the words Free Will even in the bible i never seen it if it is, did Jacob and Esau have a free choice, when God said Jacob have i loved and Esau have i hated before they were born. Did Pharaoh have a choice when God said I have hardened His Heart. Show me where one of the prophets didn't do what they were told to do because of they had free will. Jesus said no man can come to Him unless the Father draw Him where's free will there, Jesus told his apostles they didn't choose Him, He chose them, no free will there. Truth is there is no such thing as free will, all our choices are a matter of cause and effect, if God is causing it the effect will be Godly, and if He is not then the carnel mind will be the cause and the effect will be carnel. But every thing done has a cause behind it rather good or evil . When people chose wrong it's because of the wrong in them, it's not a matter of free will it's a matter of obeying whats in them. When God is present in a person He works in us to both (WILL) AND DO HIS GOOD PLEASURE, no free will here. True righteousness is a matter of creation not a matter of a free will. For thy kingdom come, thy Will be done, only one will, will be done, it's not a matter of our free will, it's a matter of God's will.
IMO…….gene
Quote To all….> does the scriptures teach Free Will, in my opinion there is no such thing as (FREE WILL) . Free will was an invention of Man to take the place of GOD's SOVERIGNTY, it gives man control over his destiny. Man wants to be GOD so He gives His self the power to control His destiny. No one Freely chooses GOD, GOD chooses them, even Jesus told His deciples they didn't choose HIM, He chose them.
No one who God chose for a purpose failed, even Judas was choosen for the purpose he performed. Jesus plainly said no man could come to Him unless the Father draw (DRAG) him. We are (created) unto good works, we doint chose our way to good works. People who push the Free Will thing are playing GOD and stealing GOD'S SOVERIGNTY. Churches use it for a means of control over people by inserting themselves between the people and GOD. They want people to think their destiny depends on them, not GOD.IMO………gene
Gene;
God moves soveriegnly as he purposes. When he told Jeremiah that the people would be taken captive by the Babylonians and come again to Israel in 70 years, God fulfilled his word.
Paul said if man draw back God's soul would have no pleasure in him. Man's will remains intact even when God draws.
Isaiah says “I have nurtured and brought up children and they have rebelled against me.” God nurtures, man chooses to obey or to rebel.
Jesus gives many parables along this line. Jesus taught more about this truth than any other truth in his parables. Most of the parables of Christ have to do with God committing himself to man and then the Judgment. Judgment what was a central truth based upon man's accountability to God.
Even though we are somewhat captives in the flesh, we have the ability through Christ to overcome if we will to do so.
Steven
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 31 2008,17:18) acertainchap………> tell me is the words Free Will even in the bible i never seen it if it is, did Jacob and Esau have a free choice, when God said Jacob have i loved and Esau have i hated before they were born. Did Pharaoh have a choice when God said I have hardened His Heart. Show me where one of the prophets didn't do what they were told to do because of they had free will. Jesus said no man can come to Him unless the Father draw Him where's free will there, Jesus told his apostles they didn't choose Him, He chose them, no free will there. Truth is there is no such thing as free will, all our choices are a matter of cause and effect, if God is causing it the effect will be Godly, and if He is not then the carnel mind will be the cause and the effect will be carnel. But every thing done has a cause behind it rather good or evil . When people chose wrong it's because of the wrong in them, it's not a matter of free will it's a matter of obeying whats in them. When God is present in a person He works in us to both (WILL) AND DO HIS GOOD PLEASURE, no free will here. True righteousness is a matter of creation not a matter of a free will. For thy kingdom come, thy Will be done, only one will, will be done, it's not a matter of our free will, it's a matter of God's will. IMO…….gene
Gene:God says the following:
Quote De 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:Jesus said the following:
Quote John 6:64
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
6:65
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.And this:
Quote John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither * * cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
3:21
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.God Knew from the beginning who would believe and who would not. Salvation is by faith so that it might be by grace and that is what Paul means when he talks about Jacob and Esau. Easau sold his birthrite. The gospel is to be preached to every creature, but some like Esau will choose not to be reconciled to God through Jesus and therefore they will not be born again.
Pharoah was an unbeliever, and he said the following:
Quote Exodus 5:2
And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go ? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.Joshua said the following:
Quote Jos 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.From the dictionary:
Quote free will
–noun 1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
2. Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forcesGod Bless
Quote (Colter @ April 29 2008,09:19) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 29 2008,08:23) I brought this forward for martian and gene. Tim
No, you have no free will, God moved you to bring it forward, it was decided before you were born that you would “bring the thread forward”.
Quote (Colter @ April 29 2008,09:19) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 29 2008,08:23) I brought this forward for martian and gene. Tim
No, you have no free will, God moved you to bring it forward, it was decided before you were born that you would “bring the thread forward”.
Hmmmm, could be.
I thought about not doing it.
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ April 29 2008,10:21) Quote (Colter @ April 29 2008,09:19) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 29 2008,08:23) I brought this forward for martian and gene. Tim
No, you have no free will, God moved you to bring it forward, it was decided before you were born that you would “bring the thread forward”.
Hmmmm, could be.
I thought about not doing it. Tim
And not obeying God would have been something you were predestined to do, too!Chosenone …….amen, God has (chosen) us according to (HIS) Will not our So called (Free Wills) right on brother.
peace to you and yours………..gene
To all…… When you realize God works all things according to (His Will) and His Will is that (ALL) will be saved and understand that includes everyone ever born,” YET AS BY FIRE” . John said i indeed baptise with water, But he who comes after me will Baptise with Spirit (AND FIRE). That God's way in which we all including the whole world WILL BE SAVED> There is no (FREE WILL) it's a false doctrine taught by lying christanity.
Peace and love to you all………..gene
WJ….. Your arrogance matches your picture you use, And your contempt of others only shows your lack of true understanding.
You doin't want to engage in serious descussion because it's against your trinitarian views, so you try to make fun of the subject which shows your contempt for others and their views, why doin't you try to be a little more respectfull to us all.IMO…………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 29 2008,11:09) WJ….. Your arrogance matches your picture you use, And your contempt of others only shows your lack of true understanding. LOL, have you ever watched “Star Trek the New Generation”?
Capt Pickard was never an arrogant man.
Have I ever called you or anyone else here “Arrogant”?
Maybe you should re-read your post, and look in the mirror!
You are now attacking my avatar.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 29 2008,11:09)
You doin't want to engage in serious descussion because it's against your trinitarian views, so you try to make fun of the subject which shows your contempt for others and their views, why doin't you try to be a little more respectfull to us all.IMO…………gene
LOL. First of all you should look at the number of post I have made on this forum, and that I have engaged in many serious conversations with you.
But it seems that when you have no answer then you begin to name call and make false accusations then try to add validity to it by bringing up the Trinity as if in your mind because I believe this, nothing I say has any validity.
Again, who is doing the name calling?
And as far as other peoples views, shall I go back and copy and paste the many times you have infered I am stuborn and blind and decieved?
Shall I go and copy and paste the many times you have said the Trinitarian view is the biggest lie?
And you have the nerve to say I have contempt for others and their views?
Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but I have no more respect for your doctrine than you have of mine, however I do not set out to attack your character.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 29 2008,09:51) Quote (Colter @ April 29 2008,09:19) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 29 2008,08:23) I brought this forward for martian and gene. Tim
No, you have no free will, God moved you to bring it forward, it was decided before you were born that you would “bring the thread forward”.
WJ……. what do you call this then, whats your meaning by laughing at people, isn't it because you think what they are saying is stupid to you.Is that not arrogance if not i would like to know what it is then?
And why do you accuse me of not answering your posts show me where i don't answer them, I may not answer all of them because it would take one or two pages to did it. The problem isn't answering your post the problem is answering misquoted posts, as i have told and shown you over and over, adding your own meaning and word to the scriptures you quote, that's the problem. As i said before you do that to divert attention from subject matter and it clouds the issues.
The subject matter we are descusing Here is (FREE WILL) either join in with respect for others or but out.
INO………gene
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