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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2008,06:52) Hi GM,
The way of Jesus was opened 2000 years ago.
Then how can Jesus be the Savior of the world before him ?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2008,13:37) Hi 94,
You say
” Salvation is by Faith whether it is in the OT or in the NT, and so, those who were striving to obey God from the beginning unto the end will be saved. 'IS IT WRITTEN THAT STRIVING SAVES US?
We cannot save ourselves.
Be still and know that I am God.
Not by might nor by power but by the Spirit.
Hi Nick:The reason that I say use the word “striving” to obey is because although we keep the commandments of God, we make mistakes. All of us have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Did Enoch obey God? Yes, he did. Did he make mistakes. Yes he did. Did Noah obey God. Yes, he did. Did he make mistakes. Yes he did. Did Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob obey God? Did those under the Law of Moses obey God? Yes, there were some that did. Did they make mistakes. Yes, of course, they did. They did not keep the law to perfection. Otherwise, Jesus died in vain. He is the propitiation for their sins as well as ours.
Those under the law of Moses did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them as we do. But although the Holy Spirit leads us into all truths, it is up to us to apply the Word of God that our Father teaches us to our daily lives.
Quote Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 [Is he] the God of the Jews only? [is he] not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.Quote (gollamudi @ Sep. 26 2008,20:14) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2008,06:52) Hi GM,
The way of Jesus was opened 2000 years ago.
Then how can Jesus be the Savior of the world before him ?
Hi GM,
Why would you believe he was?So he is not the savior of the world before him ? Then how could God reconcilled whole world towards Him in Jesus ?
Quote (gollamudi @ Sep. 27 2008,21:29) So he is not the savior of the world before him ? Then how could God reconcilled whole world towards Him in Jesus ?
Hi Adam:He is the saviour of all mankind in that he is the propitiation for sins all of those who were obeying God prior to his advent on earth and also, for the sins of those who come to God through him in the NT era.
God Bless
942767….Rom 3:10….> As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one, verse 12..> they are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable: there is none that doth good , NO NOT ONE.
So who was obeying God Prior? God has concluded (ALL) UNDER SIN< that He might have mercy on ALL. Jesus died for the sins of all humanity and GOD has acquitted ALL through the Blood of Christ. not just a picky few. For you are saved by GRACE and that Not of yourselves, Not by works least any should boast, it is a gift of GOD. Why can't people just accept that, why try to add to it?
Loven to you and yours………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 28 2008,04:52) 942767….Rom 3:10….> As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one, verse 12..> they are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable: there is none that doth good , NO NOT ONE. So who was obeying God Prior? God has concluded (ALL) UNDER SIN< that He might have mercy on ALL. Jesus died for the sins of all humanity and GOD has acquitted ALL through the Blood of Christ. not just a picky few. For you are saved by GRACE and that Not of yourselves, Not by works least any should boast, it is a gift of GOD. Why can't people just accept that, why try to add to it?
Loven to you and yours………….gene
Hi Gene:And so, every one in the OT was saved?
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 28 2008,01:53) Quote (gollamudi @ Sep. 27 2008,21:29) So he is not the savior of the world before him ? Then how could God reconcilled whole world towards Him in Jesus ?
Hi Adam:He is the saviour of all mankind in that he is the propitiation for sins all of those who were obeying God prior to his advent on earth and also, for the sins of those who come to God through him in the NT era.
God Bless
HI GM,
In your opinion doesTHE WORLD
include
THE DEAD?
(42767….Ultimately they will be saved (YET as BY FIRE) My point was there is no one righteous no not ONE> Even Jesus said why call me good , there is (NONE GOOD) except ONE that is GOD. It Just that simple. If God can save you or me He can save anyone He choses to. And if it's His will not any parish, why should i assume any will then, who am i to go against GOD'S will.
peace………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 28 2008,13:04) (42767….Ultimately they will be saved (YET as BY FIRE) My point was there is no one righteous no not ONE> Even Jesus said why call me good , there is (NONE GOOD) except ONE that is GOD. It Just that simple. If God can save you or me He can save anyone He choses to. And if it's His will not any parish, why should i assume any will then, who am i to go against GOD'S will. peace………..gene
Hi Gene:Please give me scripture that shows that all will be saved if so by fire. The only place I see a scripture that resembles this is:
Quote 1Cr 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.In the days of Noah the scripture states:
Quote 2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; Of those that God called out of Egypt through Moses, the scripture states:
Quote 1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Cr 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Cr 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Cr 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Cr 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Cr 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Cr 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Cr 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.And about Sodom and Gomorrha the scripture states:
Quote Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. It true that God is not willing that any man should perish, but the other part of the scripture states: “but that all should come to repentance. God will not intervene with a person's “free will”. We are saved by Faith in God's Word when we come to Him with a repentant heart. God will not save someone if they do not want to be saved.
Free will is not scriptural. (Eph.1:11… God is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS WILL.) Who's will is stronger, Mans or Gods?
Blessings.
Quote Free will is not scriptural. (Eph.1:11… God is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS WILL.) Who's will is stronger, Mans or Gods? God's will, will of course happen, and his will is stronger. But it is not a choice of whose will will happen, an either/or situation.
God's will is that the righteous shall live and continue worshipping him.
Man may choose to live in harmony with that will, or not. Hence, the hundreds of scriptures that talk about the wicked being destroyed and the righteous continuing on. (Example: Prov 2:21,22)2 THESSALONIANS 1:9
“These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength,”What about texts such as Titus 2:11, which refers to “the salvation of all men,” according to the rendering of RS?
Other texts, such as John 12:32, Romans 5:18, and 1 Timothy 2:3, 4, convey a similar thought in RS, KJ, NE, TEV, etc.
The Greek expressions rendered “all” and “everyone” in these verses are inflected forms of the word pas. As shown in Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (London, 1962, Vol. I, p. 46), pas can also mean “every kind or variety.” So, in the above verses, instead of “all,” the expression “every kind of” could be used; or “all sorts of.”Which is correct—“all” or the thought conveyed by “all sorts of”?
Which rendering is also harmonious with the rest of the Bible? The latter one is.Because we have scriptures such as:
2 THESSALONIANS 1:9
“These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength,”Being that this other set of scriptures (such as this example 2 thes 1:9) are fairly clear, and do speak of the everlasting destruction of some, it is clear that
1. Either this is a contradiction with how some translate Titus 2:11, etc,
or
2. Those verses actually have the meaning of “every kind of” or “all sorts of.”If you believe the Bible contradicts itself, there's no point in having this particular conversation. If it doesn't, then we have to believe #2 is correct.
Other translators also recognize this sense of the Greek word, as is shown by their renderings of it at Matthew 5:11—“all kinds of,” RS, TEV; “every kind of,” NE; “all manner of,” KJ.
The Bible clearly shows that the choices we make will alter our destiny. For example, God appeals to wrongdoers, saying: “Turn back, please, every one from his bad way and from the badness of your dealings . . . that I may not cause calamity to you.” (Jeremiah 25:5, 6) This appeal would be pointless if God had already fixed each individual’s destiny. Moreover, God’s Word states: “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the person of Jehovah.” (Acts 3:19)
Why would Jehovah ask people to repent and turn around if he knew beforehand that they could do absolutely nothing to change their destiny?Quote (chosenone @ Sep. 28 2008,17:45) Free will is not scriptural. (Eph.1:11… God is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS WILL.) Who's will is stronger, Mans or Gods? Blessings.
Hi CO:David has some excellent points, and I do not want to take away from your giving them your attention, but I wanted to post the scripture that you used Eph 1:11 in context. Please read it. What does it say?
Quote Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,God Bless
Hi 942767.
I will give it a try:Verse 11: … in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,
We have been designated beforehand (that is “predestined”) by God, according to “His will”. Obviously we did not exercise our so-called “free will”.Verse 12: … that we should be for the laud of His glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ.
I believe this states that “all is of God”, and that it is for “His glory”, and that nothing is “of ourselves” (lest we shoul boast)Verse 13: In Whom you also — on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation — in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise
14 (which is an earnest of the enjoyment of our allotment, to the deliverance of that which has been procured) for the laud of His glory!
This is saying that when we heard the word of truth (our salvation) we were sealed with the “holy spirit”. I took the liberty of adding verse 14, which, in context, explains futher verse 13….of “our allotment”, which means we were alloted (prechosen) for salvation, for “the laud of HIS GLORY. Again, nothing we had a hand in. This was for “HIS” glory.May I add a few more verses at the end of chapter 1? Very enlightening, God is doing it all!
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may be giving you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the realization of Him,
18 the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, for you to perceive what is the expectation of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of the enjoyment of His allotment among the saints,
19 and what the transcendent greatness of His power for us who are believing, in accord with the operation of the might of His strength,
20 which is operative in the Christ, rousing Him from among the dead and seating Him at His right hand among the celestials,
21 up over every sovereignty and authority and power and lordship, and every name that is named, not only in this eon, but also in that which is impending:
22 and subjects all under His feet, and gives Him, as Head over all, to the ecclesia which is His body, the complement of the One completing the all in all.God Bless, Jerry.
Hi CO,
All are not naturally in the Body of Christ.Christ is not again made one with sin.
That brought his suffering and death.We do not join Christ with Belial or with whores
1Cor10
16The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
18Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
19What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
20But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
22Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
1 Corinthians 6:16
Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, ” THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.”Hi CO:
You say in the following:
Quote Verse 13: In Whom you also — on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation — in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise
14 (which is an earnest of the enjoyment of our allotment, to the deliverance of that which has been procured) for the laud of His glory!
This is saying that when we heard the word of truth (our salvation) we were sealed with the “holy spirit”. I took the liberty of adding verse 14, which, in context, explains futher verse 13….of “our allotment”, which means we were alloted (prechosen) for salvation, for “the laud of HIS GLORY. Again, nothing we had a hand in. This was for “HIS” gloryFrom the above I want to focus on your statement: “This is saying that when we heard the word of truth (our salvation) we were sealed with the “holy spirit”.
It is saying when we heard the truth and believed and trusted in the truth, not just simply “when we heard the truth”.
And this is consistent with John 3:16-18, and in believing with a repentant heart is where the exercise of our “free will” comes in to play. The fact that we are pre-destined means that God has forseen who will believe and who will not.
Quote Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.By the way, Judas betrayed Jesus and hung himself. Was he saved?
942767…..Where does it say Judas will never be saved and is going to be cast in the lake of Fire a burn for ever and ever . Judas Will eventually be saved Just like all humanity will, YET AS BY FIRE> Because all Shall be Salted with FIRE, that includes you and me and all including Jesus himself also. For God disciplines us and Scourges (EVERY) son he excepts. NO exceptions to the rules not even Jesus.
Hi 942767.
You said: From the above I want to focus on your statement: “This is saying that when we heard the word of truth (our salvation) we were sealed with the “holy spirit”.
It is saying when we heard the truth and believed and trusted in the truth, not just simply “when we heard the truth”.You neglected to read verse 14 and my explanation, this explains verse 13 in correct context. I will copy it again.
Verse 13: In Whom you also — on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation — in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise
14 (which is an earnest of the enjoyment of our allotment, to the deliverance of that which has been procured) for the laud of His glory!
This is saying that when we heard the word of truth (our salvation) we were sealed with the “holy spirit”. I took the liberty of adding verse 14, which, in context, explains futher verse 13….of “our allotment”, which means we were alloted (prechosen) for salvation, for “the laud of HIS GLORY. Again, nothing we had a hand in. This was for “HIS” glory.
This should clear things up.The quote you used, Jn.6:64-65, is to Israel. The four gospels were a continuation of the old testament, the arrival of “Jesus”, was the promised “Messiah”. His teachings were to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matt.15:24). They were still under the 'law', and the 'old covenant'. Their entry into the 'kingdom', the promised land', was dependant on obedience to the 'law'. Quoting scripture from that era, as applying to this era, we being under “Grace”, not under the 'law', makes no sense.
Blessings.
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