Free Will?

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2008,11:05)

Hi GM, An interesting thought. Soil is the nature of the man. Some cannot be open to hearing the Word?

thats true Nick…. “cannot” is the key word it denotes ability…

Rom 8:7-8 ESV For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. (8) Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

1Co 2:14 ESV The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.”

Outside of God's gracious intervention in the sinner's heart, the sinner never would _ to believe, it's not within the natural man's capability to believe. Saving faith has to be granted, then and only then will blind eyes will be open…..

Eze 11:19-20 ESV And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, (20) that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.”

It's God who gives the new heart… people lack the capacity to manufacture one themselves…. thats why all glory for salvation goes to God, for salvation is ALL of God from first to last….

Eph 2:8 ESV For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,”

Or think of it like this, when we consider the 2 possibilities:

faith precedes regeneration

or

regeneration precedes faith

the latter is more consistently biblical….

blessings,
Ken

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
Potter and the clay.
Some fit only for the fire.
Others rescued unto His Purpose

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2008,11:41)

Hi E, Potter and the clay. Some fit only for the fire. Others rescued unto His Purpose

amen…
Rom 9:11-24 ESV though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad–in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call– (12) she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” (13) As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
(14) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
(19) You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory– (24) even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

blessings,
Ken

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (epistemaniac @ July 09 2008,11:49)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2008,11:41) Hi E, Potter and the clay. Some fit only for the fire. Others rescued unto His Purpose amen… Rom 9:11-24 ESV  though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad–in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call–  (12)  she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”  (13)  As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”   (14)  What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!  (15)  For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”  (16)  So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.  (17)  For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”  (18)  So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.   (19)  You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”  (20)  But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”  (21)  Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?  (22)  What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,  (23)  in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory–  (24)  even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? blessings, Ken

Hi Ken

Good to hear from you.

So you believe in “election”, that God chooses some to be saved and rejects the rest?

Am I misunderstanding you?

If Yeshua was lifted up and draws all men to him, and the call to salvation according to scriptures is to all to believe on the Lord Jesus and repent, how can salvation be for only a few that God elects?

If being saved means “god does it all”, then why are not all saved?

Once a man is saved, does he have any responsibilty to be led of the Spirit or of the flesh?

Would like to hear your thoughts on this and free will.

Blessings!

WJ

[gollamudi]

Quote (epistemaniac @ July 09 2008,11:49)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 09 2008,11:41) Hi E, Potter and the clay. Some fit only for the fire. Others rescued unto His Purpose amen… Rom 9:11-24 ESV  though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad–in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call–  (12)  she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”  (13)  As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”   (14)  What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!  (15)  For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”  (16)  So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.  (17)  For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”  (18)  So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.   (19)  You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”  (20)  But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”  (21)  Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?  (22)  What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,  (23)  in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory–  (24)  even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? blessings, Ken

I agree with you brother Ken.

[gollamudi]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2008,07:19)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 08 2008,06:31) Wj…you can find anything on the net to support any position you take , but if we say God knows the end from the beginning then he must have known Jesus would be sacrificed for the sins of the world also. To say other wise would deny Him know the end from the beginning then. Jesus was not a come along after ward plan or a option of some kind. If we See an all knowing God who is in complete control of His creation we have got to see that Jesus was part of that plan all along. IMO…..gene GB There is nothing in my post to indicate God does not know all things. However, Yeshua being the Lamb of God that was slain did not come to pass until 2000 years ago. Unitarians would use this ambiguous scripture in supporting there anti-preexistent agenda. But the scripture is ambiguous and other scriptures support the fact that it should be interpreted as shown. WJ

Hi brother WJ,
You mean to say the Lamb was literally existing before the foundations of the world?

[gollamudi]

Hi All,
Here is an excellent link on “free will” please gothough it.
It may help some to know that it is only a myth.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
Thanks
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi,
It is clear why universalists spend so much energy denying man has any will under the guise of attacking free will. It reaches to the level of showing man as a robot or doll helpless under the total control of a manipulating God.

But to follow Jesus we have to deny ourselves.

Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

It is a process that reaches to the level where Paul could say

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

We are created as a self.
Grace helps us change.

[GeneBalthrop]

To All………Man has a will, but it is far from (FREE) Jesus came to set the captives free from what, Was it not from there false thinking and was that false thinking not influencing their will and causing them to sin. Is has been proven by scientist and physiologists alike, there is (NO) FREE WILL only influenced WILLS.The Apostle Paul as well Scriptures all ready posted show that clearly. epeistemaniac has shown the correct scriptures to support the position.

Peace…….gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
What is this INFLUENCED WILL?
Is it like a flag on a hilltop that goes according to the winds?

Most men seem to SELF influenced as well.

[GeneBalthrop]

To ALL………All influence is either internal or external, the influences effect our thinking and therefore our wills.

Peace ………gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
So we can be influenced by
Self or
Satan or
God?  

2 Peter 2:10
But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Titus 1:7
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

We must put self to death

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
Looking further at SELF WILL

2 Peter
Chapter 2
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they , selfwilled[829], they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Number 829
Transliteration:
authades {ow-thad'-ace}
Word Origin:
from 846 and the base of 2237
TDNT:
1:508,87
Part of Speech:
adjective
Usage in the KJV:
self-willed 2

Total: 2
Definition:
self-pleasing, self-willed, arrogant

[942767]

Hi Gene and Adam:

The following is what I find in the dictionary for “free will”.

Quote

free will –noun 1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will. 2. Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Resistance to God's Spirit is possible.

Acts 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Romans 9:19
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Romans 13:2
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

So also we can resist the TRUTH
2 Timothy 3:8
Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

[Veritas ad Caritas]

Quote (TimothyVI @ June 13 2007,08:03)

Hi sscott, The bible is chock full of proof that mans fabled free will is a myth. Did the pharoah have any free will when Moses told him to let my people go? “For the Scripture says unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show My powers in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore has He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens” (Vers. 17-18). Pharaoh did not harden his own heart—God said that He hardened it. “And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh and he hearkened not unto them, as the Lord had spoken unto Moses” (Ver. 12). “…it is God [not man] which works in you BOTH TO WILL [God causes us ‘to will’] and TO DO [God causes us ‘to do’] of His good pleasure”  (Phil. 2:13). Tim

Re Pharoah and free will.
I see it like this.
If you read carefully you see a number of times Pharoah Hardened his own heart.
Then the final times God hardened his heart.
At what point was God fit to punish him and strike him dead if it pleased him?
At the point pharoah clearly rebelled against the clear hand of God. From that point I beleive God said.
Judgment Made, You have the death penalty and hereafter I will use you like a puppet to demonstrate my power.
That is not unjust. I believe God will punish Pharoah only for his free will choices not the times God used him and actively hardened his heart.

God predestines according to foreknowledge not despite forknowledge.
He sees our choices in advance then uses our lives to his glory through Judgment or through reward and obedience.
Even if we are puppets it is fine, we are the works of his hands… But I think God has done alot more intellegent and complex things than playing dolls houses with humanity.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Phil2
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

In context it shows we must OBEY.
We must work out our salvation in fear and trembling.
Certainly God supplies the grace to obey and to do his will but only if we are walking in the way.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

[gollamudi]

Quote (942767 @ July 24 2008,13:29)

Hi Gene and Adam: The following is what I find in the dictionary for “free will”. Quote free will –noun 1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.   2. Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces

Hi brother 942767,
Here is another definition of free will for you;

Dictionary: free will

n.
The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
[Middle English fre wil, translation of Late Latin līberum arbitrium : Latin līberum, neuter of līber, free + Latin arbitrium, will.]

What do you say on this? Do you think you have free will which is not influenced by any external factor like Holy Spirit or divine will then you are a great person who don't need God in Chrstian life.

I think we have debated many times in many measures on this topic better we leave it to individual understanding on this subject.
Thanks and blessings
Adam

[942767]

Quote (gollamudi @ July 24 2008,20:39)

Quote (942767 @ July 24 2008,13:29) Hi Gene and Adam: The following is what I find in the dictionary for “free will”. Quote free will –noun 1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.   2. Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces Hi brother 942767, Here is another definition of free will for you; Dictionary: free will n. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will. [Middle English fre wil, translation of Late Latin līberum arbitrium : Latin līberum, neuter of līber, free + Latin arbitrium, will.] What do you say on this? Do you think you have free will which is not influenced by any external factor like Holy Spirit or divine will then you are a great person who don't need God in Chrstian life. I think we have debated many times in many measures on this topic better we leave it to individual understanding on this subject. Thanks and blessings Adam

Hi Adam:

We are not born into a world where there are not influences to do both good and evil, and we are accountable to God for the life that we live.

I have a choice as to whether or not I obey God when He calls me into a relationship with Him, and that is what I mean by “free will”.  The freedom to choose between the influences.

As you say, we have each given our understanding on this subject, and so each of us is responsible to God for what we teach.

My desire is God's best for you and your family.

Love in Christ
Marty

[theodorej]

Greetings All……I love this topic…I believe man has a free will,however my question is….How do we speak to the mentally Ill,the alcoholic/drug adict and physco killer….Do they have a free will or is someone or something controling their activities….I would think at some time we all have the freedom to surrender our free will to good or evil and this is what might put the free will concept in question…

[Author]

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