Free Will?

Participant

WJ…..the prodigal son thing also proves the cause and effect rule, because He wanted to enjoy the things of the world ,the lust in him was the cause and the effect is what He did, that had nothing to do with Free choice but a driven choice, the lust was the driving force that controlled his will, He was a captive of that lust and it caused him to will what he did.it had nothing with being free but just the opposite His will was held totally captive by lust.

July 4, 2008 at 3:12 am#95786

Participant

Hi,
It seems we have to seek the will of God daily,
not presume we are driven by it.

Mt6
10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

July 4, 2008 at 3:24 am#95788

Participant

Yes brother Nick, we have to pray to God to know His will not that we can choose God's will by our own free will. God has to reveal it us daily as Jesus also continuously in touch with his Father to know God's perfect will.
Thanks
Adam

July 4, 2008 at 4:09 am#95795

Participant

Nick….God is in Us and directing our thoughts and guiding us. He is effecting His will in us He is also cleansing us and from all unrighteousness, He is recreating us unto good works this is all being accomplished by (GRACE) which God influencing our Hearts. Our salvation is a work of Alone.

How do you think i knew He was guiding you, by you responses to what was said by me and others, shows God is with you and don't let any thing make you fear full, People who are obeying through fear and not being perfected by the Spirit of God, the love of God shed around in your Heart will cast out fear and those who cast in fear art not of God, but are themselves servants of fear., And it Says a person is (Not) made perfect in fear for fear has torment. These are tormented minds who use fear, and remember it say the fearful and unbelieving will have their part in the Lake of Fire, A fear monger is a unbeliever. But you be stead fast in prayer and he who began a good work in you will see it to completion. For the calling of God is without revocation.

Love and peace to You and yours Adam………gene

July 4, 2008 at 4:14 am#95796

Participant

Hi GB,
What you describe would be the truth for all in Christ
if they submitted daily
and prayed for the will of God daily
and sought grace daily.

It is not magic.

July 4, 2008 at 5:49 am#95806

Participant

I agree with you brothers Gene and Nick, so let us do that.
Thanks
Adam

July 4, 2008 at 6:14 am#95810

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 04 2008,11:42)

WJ….Your own word prove the point, Remember we are (not) talking about WILL in general but (FREE) WILL, big difference,

What good is will if will cannot choose?
Obviously you are denying the definition of free will. I have shown you about 18 dictionaries that agree “free will” is the ability to choose or decide voluntarily.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 04 2008,11:42)

You said that God A the moment God convects and Draws a man he then choose. Yes he is caused to by God convicting He WJ, Had God not done that would He void of that convection then Freely choose Him

Again, you are denying reality, for we know that all men are drawn to Yeshua when he was lifted up on the cross. Yeshua’s message was “repent” for the Kingdom of God is at hand. The Apostles continued that message. But it is obvious that not all repent. The Spirits ministry is to convict men of sin and does, but not all men repent.

How do you explain that since your theory says that “God does it all”. Why do you deny reality? If man has no freedom to choose then there is no such thing as temptation.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 04 2008,11:42)

No. the Carnal mind is a enemy of God not subject to the laws of God neither indeed (CAN BE).

So your interpretation of that scripture is that a man who is in the flesh cannot be subject to the commandments. This is not what Paul is trying to convey. Men who do not know God subject themselves all the time to God’s laws. How many unsaved people do you know that do not commit murder or steal or commit adultery?

Look at the context GB. Paul is talking about the law of the Spirit in Christ Jesus.

Rom 8
[2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, **who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit**.

Did he make or cause you to walk in the Spirit? If so then why do you fall in the flesh and still sin. No, you choose to walk in the flesh or not.

[5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
[10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
[11] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
[12] Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
[13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but **if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body**, ye shall live.
[14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

In the context Paul is explaining that they have a choice to walk in the Spirit or walk in the flesh. The carnal mind is at enmity against God, this is why there is this battle or war between our Spirit and our flesh. The Spirit bids us to follow and the flesh bids us to follow. We have the power to choose which we will do. As many as are “Led” by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 04 2008,11:42)

WJ…> you proved the point it what is influencing a man that causes Him to make His choice i.e. cause and effect and being that it is not free will while it may be Will its not free, its influenced Will. Only one will ,
will be done and thats Gods will working in al and through all.

No it is not influence that causes the man to make a choice. Influence is just that. Not control. The choice is made by us when we submit to his will and influence. He doesn’t make or force us to submit, or all would have. His will is not being done in all men is it?

For every influence there is a counter. For instance if you are influenced to do good, as Paul says evil is present with you. However, you can choose to do good or bad.

This is so simple. If you are influenced to commit adultery, there is also influence to be faithful, again you choose. If you are influenced to steal, there is also the influence to be honest. You choose which way you will go.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 04 2008,11:42)

Peace ……….gene

How is it that you decide to define free will? Look at the dictionaries, and they clearly show you they do not mean what you say. You are saying free will has to be totally free from influence, but that is not the definition at all. Also you watch too many matrix movies; for the words “cause and effect” is not found in scriptures.

Believe as “You will”. I freely choose not to say anymore.

There are hundreds possibly thousands of scriptures that call men to repent or choose to follow him. Useless words if I do not have the choice to obey them but in fact “he will do it all”.

July 4, 2008 at 7:08 am#95828

Participant

Hi brother WJ, how about this verse in Proverbs 22?

6 “Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it”.

That's why we teach our children God's ways so that they may not turn away from this path when they are grown up. If the influence of worldiness increases our children tend to choose the other way than God's way. I believe the a person's past experience and present influences will certainly decide the path he is choosing now. I know I am certainly in line with your understanding that we are having our own limited wills to choose these available choices. But coming to our salvation there is the God who chooses us according to His foreoradained plan and Election. This really amazes me when I think how I came to this wonderful God and being led by Him in every aspect my life other than sin.
Peace to you.
Adam

July 4, 2008 at 7:57 am#95830

Irene

Participant

Adam Train up a child in the way it should go, He will not depart when He gets old.
However He still has a free choice to do the good things that He was taught or not. And some will go astray. But God does not want that! He wants us to choose Him. God does not want puppets. He wants us to choose Him out of Love.
Peace and Love Irene

July 4, 2008 at 8:51 am#95832

Participant

Hi Sis,
The child can only choose what is feeded to him he can not choose some thing different than he has been fed to him. So I believe every thing we choose defend on cause and effects but no free will again. We certainly have an ability choose what is already fed to us and are being influenced by them.
Peace and love to you
Adam

July 4, 2008 at 5:20 pm#95850

Participant

Adam…..You have it right there is no such thing as (FREE) will, there is Will but it Far from being (FREE) or why did Jesus say He came to set the captives free them, what were they held captive by, it was there own Wills being controlled by Lusts and pride and other false teachings that held them captive, but the truth will set them free.

peace to you…..gene

July 4, 2008 at 5:35 pm#95851

theodorej

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ July 02 2008,09:08)

If you believe man has free will, then show where is says so in scripture.

Greetings…..Perhaps your time would be better spent studying the fruits of willfull disobedience instead of the definition of free will verbatum….Adam and Eve were instructed by God not to partake of the tree of the knowledge of God and Evil…I have to assume that,the fact that they knowingly partook of the tree, they were exercising their free will to disobey God and in doing so reaped the consequences…..

July 4, 2008 at 6:18 pm#95853

Irene

Participant

Quote (gollamudi @ July 04 2008,20:51)

Adam Did you eat everything or like what was put before you? If I have 10 different Fruits and I tell you take 3. It is your choice and free will to do so. When God presents you with the truth it is your free will to believe it or not? You either except it or reject it. That is our will not God's. I can get up in the morning or lazy around all day and do nothing, our will. We are not God's puppets. God wants us to follow Him by our Love for Him, not by force. I can Love Him or not, my free will to do so.
When God is calling us, we can follow or not, it is our will to do so, not God's.
If what you say is true, then we would all believe the truth, because that is what God wants. Humans have the free will to do or not to do. And a lot follow the wrong road which leads to destruction.
Peace and Love Irene

July 4, 2008 at 6:20 pm#95854

Irene

Participant

Quote (theodorej @ July 05 2008,05:35)

Quote (chosenone @ July 02 2008,09:08)

If you believe man has free will, then show where is says so in scripture.

Good post I was posting at the same time. Good example.
Irene

July 4, 2008 at 7:41 pm#95862

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 05 2008,05:20)

peace to you…..gene

Hi GB,
It seems it is rather the ruling will of Satan that Jesus came to set men free from.
2 Timothy 2:26
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Luke 11:22
But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

July 5, 2008 at 1:32 am#95888

Participant

Quote (theodorej @ July 05 2008,05:35)

Quote (chosenone @ July 02 2008,09:08)

If you believe man has free will, then show where is says so in scripture.

theadore….it says eve was deceived , but Adam was not, So why would Adam eat of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil in the first place. In my opinion it was because He came to know that it was needful to make a person wise, and to be Like God, Notice after they ate their eyes were opened, so before they ate there eyes were not opened and God does not say that man was like Him, until He ate and then God said Look man has become like us knowing (experiencing) good and evil.

Mans fall was not an accident it was all part of God's Plan, or how could Jesus been crucified from the foundations of the earth then, and it say God knows the End from the Beginning. He Know all along man would fall it was all in His plan. And He know all along that He would send the man Jesus, for the sacrifice of the world.

July 5, 2008 at 1:51 am#95892

Participant

Hi Nick,
I think you got it right, we were not able to choose God by our 'free wills' but God the Father has drawn us with His love and grace towards Him certainly He influenced us to come to Him as per His foreordained plan and Election. This is the reason why many have not come to the this God though they could have used their free wills and chosen Him if they really have that.

Yes Jesus has set us free from bodage of sin and Satan for what purpose? again to obey to God it doesn't give us licence to sin by using our freedom or 'free will'. Still we have two natures in us which striving against each other; one is the Spirit nature which is given by God and the other is the old sinful nature that is still available in these mortal bodies till we die. Are we not influenced by both of these natures. Where is the question of 'free will' here? There is only difference than when we were away from God is now we can choose to do good with the influence of the Spirit of God which was not possible earlier. That's why I was mentioning earlier whatever is feeded in our minds that only will be chosen by us by its influence not any 'free will' to choose different than what is not available in our minds.

This is all I wanted to share. Infact I was a srong believer of 'free will' earlier but now I am unlearning and knowing some thing which is more relevant to our lives and to realise the grace of God and His continous guidence in my life.
Peace to you
Adam

July 5, 2008 at 6:51 am#95913

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 05 2008,13:32)

Quote (theodorej @ July 05 2008,05:35)

Quote (chosenone @ July 02 2008,09:08)

If you believe man has free will, then show where is says so in scripture.

Excuse me but this is plain hog wash.

You are proposing that it was God's will for Adam to sin.

You yourself has said that words are Spirit. If YHWHs word……

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2:16, 17

is Spirit and by his Spirit he forces or drags men to obey him as you say, then Adam would have never sinned by eating of the tree.

Yet he openly rebelled and transgressed God's commandment.

This is proof in itself. Here is a man who was perfect and had no internal or external influences but God's, until satan came along and Adam freely chose to disobey him.

YHWH did not lead him to do this!

Further more your implication that Adam was not in the image of God until after he sinned is also incorrect.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Gen 1:27

When Adam and Eve were created they were created in the image of God.

Simply because they lost their innocence when they sinned and became like God knowing good and evil does not mean they were not already in his image.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 05 2008,13:32)

In my opinion it was because He came to know that it was needful to make a person wise, and to be Like God, Notice after they ate their eyes were opened, so before they ate there eyes were not opened and God does not say that man was like Him, until He ate and then God said Look man has become like us knowing (experiencing) good and evil.

You speak as if God was happy that they disobeyed him. There disobedience did not open their eyes and make them become more like God.

No they became gods unto themselves because they had freely chosen apart from YHWY. Their spiritual eyes were blinded and their spiritual mind died. The only eyes that were opened were their natural carnal minds, so that now they could see their own nakedness without him.

It was not nor will it ever be God's will for men to sin and disobey him. It is Pure folly to say that rebellion against God makes men more like him or that we cannot know good and unless we know evil!

July 5, 2008 at 11:00 am#95916