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Quote (chosenone @ July 02 2008,16:34) Hi Adam.
Great post, amen to that.God Bless, Jerry.
Hi brother Jerry,
Thanks for that. Press on brother in this great debate of disproving 'free will'
Blessings
AdamQuote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2008,17:13) Hi CO,
Adding scriptures together to make one hopeful truth does not wash.The gospel gives all men choice.
All must repent.
NHHow True.
Yeshua said….
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.Rev 3:19
We are living in the Laodicean era. The church of Jesus Christ is asleep. They are asleep in thinking they have it all figured out and that everything is just “peachy”. They are increased with goods and think that they have no need of anything. Yeshua says to the church, “be zealous therefore, and repent
The Greek word for ‘Zealous’ is “zēloō”, which means;
1)to burn with zeal
2)to be heated or to boil with envy, hatred, anger
3)in a good sense, to be zealous in the pursuit of good
4)to desire earnestly, pursueThey were lukewarm and now Yeshua commands them to burn with zeal. The rebuke was because they were not burning with zeal, but in fact were living after the flesh. In other words God was not controlling their wills for they were not in submission to him.
But he also said “Repent”. The Greek word for ‘Repent’ is “metanoeō”, which means;
1) to change one' s mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one' s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one' s past sinsBoth of these words are verbs that involve an action on our part. Yeshua goes on to say after the rebuke and the command…
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Rev 19:20
Yeshua stands at the door and desires fellowship. He doesn’t bust the door down and force anyone to let him in. He says “If any man hear my voice and open the door”, this is an act of our wills to respond to his voice to open the door and let him in.
Again, the principle is Yeshua speaking and drawing, and then we respond by letting him come in.
The false doctrines of men would teach that man has no responsibility in being zealous and repenting, but in fact say that God causes them to repent, which is a distortion of the truth. For the scriptures tell men every where to repent yet we know that not all repent but instead exercise their free wills to follow their own paths. So if God causes them to repent (or drags them) then all would repent. There is always a drawing by the Spirit, but it is up to the man to follow and obey the Spirit, which these men deny because they say God does it all.
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Rom 2:4
Scriptures clearly teach that God’s goodness “Leads” men to repentance. Not forces him.
The teachings of carnal man would leave men under the deception that they need to do nothing, in fact they don’t need to worry about following the Spirit or submitting to his guidance, because “God will do it all”. Let the blind “Lead” the blind and they will both fall in the ditch.
The believer and overcomer understands that as we submit our wills “Freely” to the Lord and allow him to work in and through us we will find our true rest in him for his “Yoke” is easy and his burden is light.
The message is clear…
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Rev 3:19
But many will not obey and repent not because God didn’t do it for them, but because they freely choose not to obey.
They think they can just sit on their lees and God will just do it all.
Well did the Prophet Zephaniah speak of such in the last days, and as the scritpure says God will surely do something to those who are complacent.
At that time I will search Jerusalem with lamps and punish those who are complacent, who are like wine left on its dregs,
who think, ‘The Lord will do nothing, either good or bad.’These false teachers say “God will do it all” therfore no worry if you sin, because it isnt your fault God's not gonna judge you for that, for he knows that we are but flesh.
for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: “Wake up, O sleeper rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.” Be very careful, then, how you live–not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. Eph 5:14-17
Why understand what the Lords will is? So we can submit our will to his and obey him.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 02 2008,18:13) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2008,17:13) Hi CO,
Adding scriptures together to make one hopeful truth does not wash.The gospel gives all men choice.
All must repent.
NHHow True.
Yeshua said….
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.Rev 3:19
We are living in the Laodicean era. The church of Jesus Christ is asleep. They are asleep in thinking they have it all figured out and that everything is just “peachy”. They are increased with goods and think that they have no need of anything. Yeshua says to the church, “be zealous therefore, and repent
The Greek word for ‘Zealous’ is “zēloō”, which means;
1)to burn with zeal
2)to be heated or to boil with envy, hatred, anger
3)in a good sense, to be zealous in the pursuit of good
4)to desire earnestly, pursueThey were lukewarm and now Yeshua commands them to burn with zeal. The rebuke was because they were not burning with zeal, but in fact were living after the flesh. In other words God was not controlling their wills for they were not in submission to him.
But he also said “Repent”. The Greek word for ‘Repent’ is “metanoeō”, which means;
1) to change one' s mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one' s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one' s past sinsBoth of these words are verbs that involve an action on our part. Yeshua goes on to say after the rebuke and the command…
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Rev 19:20
Yeshua stands at the door and desires fellowship. He doesn’t bust the door down and force anyone to let him in. He says “If any man hear my voice and open the door”, this is an act of our wills to respond to his voice to open the door and let him in.
Again, the principle is Yeshua speaking and drawing, and then we respond by letting him come in.
The false doctrines of men would teach that man has no responsibility in being zealous and repenting, but in fact say that God causes them to repent, which is a distortion of the truth. For the scriptures tell men every where to repent yet we know that not all repent but instead exercise their free wills to follow their own paths. So if God causes them to repent (or drags them) then all would repent. There is always a drawing by the Spirit, but it is up to the man to follow and obey the Spirit, which these men deny because they say God does it all.
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Rom 2:4
Scriptures clearly teach that God’s goodness “Leads” men to repentance. Not forces him.
The teachings of carnal man would leave men under the deception that they need to do nothing, in fact they don’t need to worry about following the Spirit or submitting to his guidance, because “God will do it all”. Let the blind “Lead” the blind and they will both fall in the ditch.
They believer and overcomer understands that as we submit our wills “Freely” to the Lord and allow him to work in and through us we will find our true rest in him for his “Yoke” is easy and his burden is light.
The message is clear…
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Rev 3:19
But many will not obey and repent not because God didn’t do it for them, but because they freely choose not to obey.
They think they can just sit on their lees and God will just do it all.
Well did the Prophet Zephaniah speak of such in the last days, and as the scritpure says God will surely do something to those who are complacent.
At that time I will search Jerusalem with lamps and punish those who are complacent, who are like wine left on its dregs,
who think, ‘The Lord will do nothing, either good or bad.’These false teachers say “God will do it all” therfore no worry if you sin, because it isnt your fault God's not gonna judge you for that, for he knows that we are but flesh.
for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: “Wake up, O sleeper rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.” Be very careful, then, how you live–not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. Eph 5:14-17
Why understand what the Lords will is? So we can submit our will to his and obey him.
WJ
W.J. With this I totally agree. We do have a free will. We can follow God or we can live in this world and follow evil. Many do follow evil, otherwise this world would look a lot different, because God wants all to repent and come to Him. He send His only begotten Son into the world that all may be saved it says.
Even after Jesus has taught all in the Millenium many will follow Satan and end up in the Lake of Fire.
To follow Satan is their choice not Gods.
God will call but He leaves it up to us to follow, it is our will to follow ore not. All must repent. But you think all will? It says that they follow Satan.
Peace and Love IreneHi all who believe in “free will”,
come and see the non-christian world then you will understand what is this so called 'free will' you are talking about. You have taken birth in a Christian country, in a Christian family and in a Chrstian atmosphere inspite of all these influences you say you can use your 'free will' come to God and do good by your will freely. Think about us who are in non-chrstian countries we know what is the meaning of predestination and Election, we know how we have taken birth in a situation so that we can come to Christian God not that we could use our 'free will' and choose this God. But God the creator has given us the grace to know Him through birth in such a situatuation that there is no other alternative but to choose Him. You people are dancing with this so called 'free will' because now you are in a different world. You can never understand Sovereign God's grace and purpose in your lives because you never tasted this grace really because of your comforts and Christian environment.
Please Take care
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ July 02 2008,20:03) Hi all who believe in “free will”,
come and see the non-christian world then you will understand what is this so called 'free will' you are talking about. You have taken birth in a Christian country, in a Christian family and in a Chrstian atmosphere inspite of all these influences you say you can use your 'free will' come to God and do good by your will freely. Think about us who are in non-chrstian countries we know what is the meaning of predestination and Election, we know how we have taken birth in a situation so that we can come to Christian God not that we could use our 'free will' and choose this God. But God the creator has given us the grace to know Him through birth in such a situatuation that there is no other alternative but to choose Him. You people are dancing with this so called 'free will' because now you are in a different world. You can never understand Sovereign God's grace and purpose in your lives because you never tasted this grace really because of your comforts and Christian environment.
Please Take care
Adam
Don't Ignore WJ post my brother…it disproves what you believeQuote (Irene @ July 02 2008,18:51) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 02 2008,18:13) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2008,17:13) Hi CO,
Adding scriptures together to make one hopeful truth does not wash.The gospel gives all men choice.
All must repent.
NHHow True.
Yeshua said….
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.Rev 3:19
We are living in the Laodicean era. The church of Jesus Christ is asleep. They are asleep in thinking they have it all figured out and that everything is just “peachy”. They are increased with goods and think that they have no need of anything. Yeshua says to the church, “be zealous therefore, and repent
The Greek word for ‘Zealous’ is “zēloō”, which means;
1)to burn with zeal
2)to be heated or to boil with envy, hatred, anger
3)in a good sense, to be zealous in the pursuit of good
4)to desire earnestly, pursueThey were lukewarm and now Yeshua commands them to burn with zeal. The rebuke was because they were not burning with zeal, but in fact were living after the flesh. In other words God was not controlling their wills for they were not in submission to him.
But he also said “Repent”. The Greek word for ‘Repent’ is “metanoeō”, which means;
1) to change one' s mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one' s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one' s past sinsBoth of these words are verbs that involve an action on our part. Yeshua goes on to say after the rebuke and the command…
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Rev 19:20
Yeshua stands at the door and desires fellowship. He doesn’t bust the door down and force anyone to let him in. He says “If any man hear my voice and open the door”, this is an act of our wills to respond to his voice to open the door and let him in.
Again, the principle is Yeshua speaking and drawing, and then we respond by letting him come in.
The false doctrines of men would teach that man has no responsibility in being zealous and repenting, but in fact say that God causes them to repent, which is a distortion of the truth. For the scriptures tell men every where to repent yet we know that not all repent but instead exercise their free wills to follow their own paths. So if God causes them to repent (or drags them) then all would repent. There is always a drawing by the Spirit, but it is up to the man to follow and obey the Spirit, which these men deny because they say God does it all.
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Rom 2:4
Scriptures clearly teach that God’s goodness “Leads” men to repentance. Not forces him.
The teachings of carnal man would leave men under the deception that they need to do nothing, in fact they don’t need to worry about following the Spirit or submitting to his guidance, because “God will do it all”. Let the blind “Lead” the blind and they will both fall in the ditch.
They believer and overcomer understands that as we submit our wills “Freely” to the Lord and allow him to work in and through us we will find our true rest in him for his “Yoke” is easy and his burden is light.
The message is clear…
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Rev 3:19
But many will not obey and repent not because God didn’t do it for them, but because they freely choose not to obey.
They think they can just sit on their lees and God will just do it all.
Well did the Prophet Zephaniah speak of such in the last days, and as the scritpure says God will surely do something to those who are complacent.
At that time I will search Jerusalem with lamps and punish those who are complacent, who are like wine left on its dregs,
who think, ‘The Lord will do nothing, either good or bad.’These false teachers say “God will do it all” therfore no worry if you sin, because it isnt your fault God's not gonna judge you for that, for he knows that we are but flesh.
for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: “Wake up, O sleeper rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.” Be very careful, then, how you live–not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. Eph 5:14-17
Why understand what the Lords will is? So we can submit our will to his and obey him.
WJ
W.J. With this I totally agree. We do have a free will. We can follow God or we can live in this world and follow evil. Many do follow evil, otherwise this world would look a lot different, because God wants all to repent and come to Him. He send His only begotten Son into the world that all may be saved it says.
Even after Jesus has taught all in the Millenium many will follow Satan and end up in the Lake of Fire.
To follow Satan is their choice not Gods.
God will call but He leaves it up to us to follow, it is our will to follow ore not. All must repent. But you think all will? It says that they follow Satan.
Peace and Love Irene
Amen!!! to both these postsQuote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2008,17:13) Hi CO,
Adding scriptures together to make one hopeful truth does not wash.The gospel gives all men choice.
All must repent.
Amen brotherQuote (gollamudi @ July 02 2008,20:03) Hi all who believe in “free will”,
come and see the non-christian world then you will understand what is this so called 'free will' you are talking about. You have taken birth in a Christian country, in a Christian family and in a Chrstian atmosphere inspite of all these influences you say you can use your 'free will' come to God and do good by your will freely. Think about us who are in non-chrstian countries we know what is the meaning of predestination and Election, we know how we have taken birth in a situation so that we can come to Christian God not that we could use our 'free will' and choose this God. But God the creator has given us the grace to know Him through birth in such a situatuation that there is no other alternative but to choose Him. You people are dancing with this so called 'free will' because now you are in a different world. You can never understand Sovereign God's grace and purpose in your lives because you never tasted this grace really because of your comforts and Christian environment.
Please Take care
Adam
Adam…..Amen brother, you said it perfectly. God is truly blessing and keeping you, from falling into these false teaching that so many have fallen into, If they can't come to grips with this so called FREE WILL issue they can never have a right relationship with God no matter how hard they try.Love and peace to you and yours………..gene
Quote (gollamudi @ July 02 2008,20:03)
Hi all who believe in “free will”,
come and see the non-christian world then you will understand what is this so called 'free will' you are talking about. You have taken birth in a Christian country, in a Christian family and in a Chrstian atmosphere inspite of all these influences you say you can use your 'free will' come to God and do good by your will freely.Hi GM
God is no respecter of persons. Living in a different country or culture makes no difference for every man will give an account for what he has done or not done.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that **they are without excuse**. Rom 1:18-20
Within every man born into this world there is a consciousness of God. It is revealed to him by the creation itself and they are without excuse. But you and GB and CO would have us believe that man is not responsible for his actions for it is just cause and effect and that God will do it all for him. You have denied many scriptures that say that God convicts, calls, and draws men to him but it is the man’s responsibility to heed that call and follow him.
Quote (gollamudi @ July 02 2008,20:03)
Think about us who are in non-chrstian countries we know what is the meaning of predestination and Election, we know how we have taken birth in a situation so that we can come to Christian God not that we could use our 'free will' and choose this God. But God the creator has given us the grace to know Him through birth in such a situatuation that there is no other alternative but to choose Him.
Again, God is no respecter of persons. You are kidding yourself if you think you had no other alternative. Did God make you come to him? And if what you and GB say is true then why isn’t everyone following the Lord? You live in a world of contradictions my friend. For your anti-choice doctrine not only contradicts scriptures but also contradicts the reality around you.Quote (gollamudi @ July 02 2008,20:03)
You people are dancing with this so called 'free will' because now you are in a different world.
No I am in the same world you are. The Gospel is to all. The creation itself reveals his glory so they are without excuse. You and GB and CO are dancing for you say that God is sovereign and that “God will do it all”, yet we do not see all being dragged to him do we?Quote (gollamudi @ July 02 2008,20:03) You can never understand Sovereign God's grace and purpose in your lives because you never tasted this grace really because of your comforts and Christian environment.
Please Take care
Adam
Listen to yourself GM. You say we “can never understand God’s sovereign grace and purpose in our lives”. You are contradicting yourself. For if it is God’s sovereign grace, and that God does it all, then how can you say we will never understand? So tell me if God is in control of all men’s will then why haven’t we agreed with your doctrine?GM you have swallowed a camel of lies when you believe that man has no choice or responsibility for his actions. True children of God “freely choose” to keep his commandments and follow him. They are not puppets on a string or robots that mindlessly do what God wants because God does it all.
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Rom 8:12-14
You can choose to walk in the flesh and you can choose to walk in the Spirit. The choice is freely yours. God is not going to do it for you.
WJ
Hi WJ,
You just quoted that you are led by the Spirit of God there you lie that you follow your so called free will who is lier see for youself. No more arguments please.. you are free to follow your egos and self whatever you feel.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 03 2008,02:46) Quote (gollamudi @ July 02 2008,20:03) Hi all who believe in “free will”,
come and see the non-christian world then you will understand what is this so called 'free will' you are talking about. You have taken birth in a Christian country, in a Christian family and in a Chrstian atmosphere inspite of all these influences you say you can use your 'free will' come to God and do good by your will freely. Think about us who are in non-chrstian countries we know what is the meaning of predestination and Election, we know how we have taken birth in a situation so that we can come to Christian God not that we could use our 'free will' and choose this God. But God the creator has given us the grace to know Him through birth in such a situatuation that there is no other alternative but to choose Him. You people are dancing with this so called 'free will' because now you are in a different world. You can never understand Sovereign God's grace and purpose in your lives because you never tasted this grace really because of your comforts and Christian environment.
Please Take care
Adam
Adam…..Amen brother, you said it perfectly. God is truly blessing and keeping you, from falling into these false teaching that so many have fallen into, If they can't come to grips with this so called FREE WILL issue they can never have a right relationship with God no matter how hard they try.Love and peace to you and yours………..gene
GBYour words also are a contradiction.
For you say…
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 03 2008,02:46)
” If they can't come to grips with this so called FREE WILL issue they can never have a right relationship with God no matter how hard they try.”
But if God is sovereign and “does it all” then how can you say we will never have a right relationship with God no matter how hard we try?This makes no sense! No we have chosen to believe the scriptures that show we must deny ourselves and take up our cross and follow him. You have chosen to believe there is nothing you can do in working out your salvation.
Choices are given to men every day and God is not going to make those choices for them.
You are hung up on the words “free will” which simply means man can freely choose.
This is the definition of free will.
Encarta® World English Dictionary, North American Edition
Free will (noun)
Definition:
power of independent action and choice: the ability to act or make choices as a free and autonomous being and not solely as a result of compulsion or predestination
of your own free will without being forced by somebody or something else
Wiktionary
free will, (noun)
the power to act without the constraints of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one’s own discretion.Source.Compact Oxford English Dictionary
Free Will
(philosophy) The ability to choose one's actions, or determine what reasons are acceptable motivation for actions.
(philosophy) The doctrine that humans (and possibly other entities) are able to choose their actions without being caused to do so by external forces Source.The Wordsmyth English Dictionary-Thesaurus
Free Will
Definition1.the ability to choose or decide voluntarily. Crossref. Syn. liberty , will , volitionDefinition2.in philosophy, the theory that humans possess the ability to make choices guided by individual values and ideals rather than governed by external pressures or physical necessity. (Cf. determinism.)
Related Words option
Source.Free will is the believers ability to choose or decide voluntarily. Your Gospel takes the ability to choose away, therfore man can not choose to follow the leading and guidance of his Spirit.
WJ
Quote (gollamudi @ July 03 2008,04:21) Hi WJ,
You just quoted that you are led by the Spirit of God there you lie that you follow your so called free will who is lier see for youself. No more arguments please.. you are free to follow your egos and self whatever you feel.
GMDid God make you attack my person and call me a “liar”?
Or did you choose to do that in the flesh without God's control?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2008,05:39) Quote (gollamudi @ July 03 2008,04:21) Hi WJ,
You just quoted that you are led by the Spirit of God there you lie that you follow your so called free will who is lier see for youself. No more arguments please.. you are free to follow your egos and self whatever you feel.
GMDid God make you attack my person and call me a “liar”?
Or did you choose to do that in the flesh without God's control?
Hi Biother Keith,
I am sorry and I apologise for my words at you this moment. Yes God caused me to wake up from my bed and forced me to apologise my brother. Oh! I really feel guilty of saying hurting words to my brother. Forgive me if you can but I really understand now His guidence and influence in my life and I don't need any free will for this purpose. I am lighter now as He led me to this confession.I praise God for such a wonderful God we have.
Thanks to all and forgive me if hurted any of you.
Love to all
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ July 03 2008,07:13) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2008,05:39) Quote (gollamudi @ July 03 2008,04:21) Hi WJ,
You just quoted that you are led by the Spirit of God there you lie that you follow your so called free will who is lier see for youself. No more arguments please.. you are free to follow your egos and self whatever you feel.
GMDid God make you attack my person and call me a “liar”?
Or did you choose to do that in the flesh without God's control?
Hi Biother Keith,
I am sorry and I apologise for my words at you this moment. Yes God caused me to wake up from my bed and forced me to apologise my brother. Oh! I really feel guilty of saying hurting words to my brother. Forgive me if you can but I really understand now His guidence and influence in my life and I don't need any free will for this purpose. I am lighter now as He led me to this confession.I praise God for such a wonderful God we have.
Thanks to all and forgive me if hurted any of you.
Love to all
Adam
Hi GMApology accepted. But why didnt God force you not to call me a liar?
But I am really glad “you followed” his leading to this confession.
Blessings! WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2008,04:13) Hi GM GM you have swallowed a camel of lies when you believe that man has no choice or responsibility for his actions. .
WJ
This has provoked me as you are also led by the flesh nature it happened for me. Please I don't want any further arguements further on these since you are not convinced with me.Yes I agree with you we have certain choices to make but not any free will to choose God by ourself. This is my conclusion.
Thanks for good debate.
Peace to you
AdamWj…….You did not give the true definition of (Free) Will you gave the definition of Will, not (FREE) Will. The definition in nearly all Dictionaries and wikipda Show (Free) wills, are Wills that Have (NO) influence whatsoever by Past experience or internal influence or external influence , To be Free of all these would leave a person unable to choose anything, But if He did it truly would be Free.
Adam…….Just trust God as your were, He who has began a work in you will see it unto completion. There is (NO) such thing as Free WILL, look it up for yourself Study it, it's one of the biggest Lies ever told by Man. There is not one word of (FREE WILL) talked about in scriptures. All Choice are the result of cause and effect, proven over and over science and psychologists and History it self. Adam investigate for yourself brother.
Love and peace to you and yours……gene
Quote (gollamudi @ July 03 2008,14:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2008,04:13) Hi GM GM you have swallowed a camel of lies when you believe that man has no choice or responsibility for his actions. .
WJ
This has provoked me as you are also led by the flesh nature it happened for me. Please I don't want any further arguements further on these since you are not convinced with me.Yes I agree with you we have certain choices to make but not any free will to choose God by ourself. This is my conclusion.
Thanks for good debate.
Peace to you
Adam
GMI hope you see the difference in calling a particular belief or doctrine a lie, and calling the person a liar.
A person can believe a lie and not be a liar because they sincerely believe what they believe is true.
I am sorry that you are offended by that, but I still believe it is true.
WJ
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 03 2008,14:43) Wj…….You did not give the true definition of (Free) Will you gave the definition of Will, not (FREE) Will. The definition in nearly all Dictionaries and wikipda Show (Free) wills, are Wills that Have (NO) influence whatsoever by Past experience or internal influence or external influence , To be Free of all these would leave a person unable to choose anything, But if He did it truly would be Free.
GBThen you are disagreeing with pretty much all the dictionaries.
Past experience, internal, and external influences do not “force” a man to do anything.
Especially when it comes to God speaking his eternal truth to a man which transcends past experiences and all other influences.
When God convicts and draws a man then at that moment he can choose by an act of his will to say yes and follow him or no regardless of all experience and influence. To say this is not true is to say that man is not responsible for anything and therefore is not guilty of anything since he can not help it.
Proof of this is that many times man does not even follow his experience or the influences in his life whether they be internal or external.
Example, a child is brought up in a Christian home and he has been taught scripture all his life. His Father and Mother were Godly parents and raised him to do what is good and right. To Love the Lord first and also to love his neighbor. They had put him in a Christian school, taken him to church 2 or 3 times a week, prayed with him over everything, and Etc Etc.
He had lots of influence and experience for good and to love God.
Yet, one day this young man decides he doesn’t want to follow the Lord and forsakes the things he was taught. In fact he goes out into the world and experiences all the evils of promiscuous sex, drugs, alcohol etc. etc..
Sound familiar. Like the prodigal son he left his home and went to eat with the pigs. No amount of experience or influence that his Father or Mother could have given him would have changed his mind.
He freely chose to deny everything that was in him telling him not to and disobeyed anyway.
No matter what experience or influences we have had, we still choose to act one way or the other.
When we stand before God, we can not say but Lord I couldn’t help it because I only did what I was controlled to do.
There are many dictionaries that agree with the definitions of free will I gave earlier found here.
WJ
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