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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2008,11:10)
Wj………Jesus died for the sins of the world that's true. and God has concluded all under sin that he might have mercy on ALL, not Just a picky few, but all. With that given then how does it all come about without Gods Spirit Creating it in us,
First you are saying God’s mercy is for all, and then you say how can it come about without God’s Spirit creating it in us. If God’s mercy is for all then why hasn’t the Spirit created it in all? You would have us believe that God’s mercy is for all but he has chosen a few that he will bless and give his Spirit to in this life, but the rest will be cast into hell on the judgment day. If God does it all then how can he judge a man who cannot help what he does?The reason the Spirit creates in us, first of all is his drawing all men by the Spirit, which Yeshua said would happen when he is lifted up.
Second is the one being drawn repents and follows. That is when the seed of his word enters good ground and we are born or created a new creation. Yeshua or God is not going to force his will on anyone to receive the gift. It is given to those who ask for it.And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:47, 48
Yeshua is saying here that men would hear his words and believe not and in fact reject them. The words Yeshua spoke were Spirit and life therefore his words would “draw” men to him. But they had the choice to receive him or reject him. Your concept would say that these men do not have the freedom to choose to believe his words or not, or to follow him. Since you believe the Father is in control of all men’s wills then that would mean that the Father is causing them to reject Yeshua’s words.
You say…
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2008,15:08)
Question………why does puny man think He controls His destiny then, with his own Will or so-called (FREE Will)? .
But Yeshua says…
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. Mark 8:34, 35Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2008,11:10)
You maintain the Man himself has to repent and do it, we maintain GOD does it through His Holy Spirit which is the love of God poured into our hearts causing repentance and change.
No, God doesn’t cause us to repent, God leads us to repent. It is our choice to follow. And it is an act of our own will to repent. God doesn’t force any man to repent.Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Rom 2:4
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. Mark 8:34, 35
There is the principle again, he speaks the word and draws him and man decides to follow or not. But you would have us believe that the man who takes up his cross and follows Yeshua didn’t do it as an act of his own will, but that God controlled him to make that decision.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2008,11:10)
You say it's man work that does it , we say its Gods work that does it, For while we were yet sinners God sent His son to did for the ungodly.
Does what? Saves us? Where have I implied that we are saved by works? We are saved by faith, however faith without works is dead.Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. James 2:17, 18
James is not contradicting Paul when he says by grace you are saved through faith and that it is not of ourselves, but it is the gift of God. James is simply saying true faith produces works. Paul is saying that it is his grace, divine influence in us, for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works that we should walk in them. God has put his laws in our hearts and minds and now it is up to us to follow them by submitting to his Spirit in us. You and GM would have us believe we have no control over our wills to obey him and submit to him and the leading of his Spirit and word, but that somehow we will automatically do everything that he wants. That is just plain hogwash and denies every scripture that shows we can choose to follow him or not, and completely negates any responsibility on our part to take up our cross and follow him, and walk in the Spirit and not after the flesh.
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Phil 2:12
Again, we are co-labor together with God by yielding to his dealings and workings in our lives. This is what communion and fellowhip is all about. Not a one sided relationship where one controls the other. We with God are working out our salvation in fear and trembling. God doesn’t want a bunch of puppets on a string, or robots that have no will to choose to love him or not. That would not be Love at all.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2008,11:10)
Salvation works in three stages, first forgiveness i.e Jesus' death on the cross, second repentance given By Gods spirit,and third being cleansed, by the washing of God's word. No man can truly repent without the judgement of God . Judgment is a must and it begins at the house of God. What because we say God save us, we mean a magic pill of some kind, when did we ever imply that, Your getting like you minis Nick putting words in peoples mouth. No God scourges every son He excepts as scripture plainly said we never implied anything different .
No what you are implying is that man has no choice, or no will to follow him or not to. God does not force his works or Spirit on any man that rejects him or his word. His Spirit will not always strive with man. This concept is pr
oof that man is created a free moral agent. While men are influenced and in some cases controlled does not negate his being able to freely make choices. Hence the term “Free will”.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2008,11:10)
WJ …> and every man is cast into a fire ( intense Judgments) Didn't Jesus say you shall be salted with fire. and again, know this that the (fire trials) that has tried you as if some strange thing has happened unto you. Don;t kid yourself (EVERYONE) goes through the fire and is tried. even the ones whoes sins have been forgive all are going through fire trial and if you as a preacher don't know that by now you never will, how many people in your congregation are experiencing fire trials there is no magic pill here God wants and planned it that that way, He wants tried, tested and seasoned children. Fully experienced in the knowledge of good and evil. Or why would He ever put us through this when he could have easily stopped it any time he wanted to.
I think you just answered your own question. If God is in control of our wills then why does he have to put us through fiery trials? Have you considered that even those that are in the fire still reject him. They “freely” choose to reject him.And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and **repented** not of their deeds. Rev 16:8, 9
It’s hard to imagine how men can have so much pain and still not repent. Yet this is an act of their will.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2008,11:10)
You ask why would God be disciplining us if he had power over or wills, Because the experience is need full and the Judgments are the process of changing our wills to conform to His will.
But if God has to change our will then he is not in control of it is he? Again, it is the goodness of God that “leads” us to repentance. We decide when his Spirit calls if we will follow or obey.Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God–this is your **spiritual act of worship**. Rom 12:1
We are urged by God through Paul to present our bodies to him as a living sacrifice, this is our act of spiritual worship.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2008,11:10) Our will are not going to be done in the Kingdom of God< Only Gods WILL will be done. And the judgments of God is transforming our thinking which changes our will to conform to His will. There is no magic pill its a process over time and experience. All those people you tell are saved why doesn't God just take them then why do they continue to suffer and will till they die, if it’s without purpose.
Yes God’s will is going to be done, but again it’s obvious his will is not being done in earth as it is in heaven. Men still reject him and have not submitted to his will. One day every knee will bow and everyone tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord, but not because he forces them or controls them, that is not love. Love is willingly giving ourselves to someone. Yeshua is the Bridegroom and we are the bride. How would a Bridegroom feel if the only reason his bride comes to him is because he has dragged, or forced her to come to him? What kind of relationship would that be if the Bride only loves him because he made her or controlled her will to Love him?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2008,11:10)
This whole issue is supposed to be over all being saved and you and Nick turn it into another subject of How they are saved, so I ask you how are 90% of the whole world thrown into literal lake of fire and burned into all eternity buy a (LOVING) GOD.
You are making assumptions again. First I do not hold to NHs or the RCCs belief in an eternal place of torture. I believe the Love, mercy and goodness of God will eventually bring all men to himself, but they will still have to be willing (remember those who were in torments and still rejected him without repenting.), but his Love will eventually win them over. He doesn’t want puppets or robots. Have you ever dated and wooed the one you wanted for your own? Well when she finally gave into you do you think that was her decision or not? Try telling her she had no choice and see what happens.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2008,11:10)
It time for you people to answer some questions instead of Just keep asking them, Its interesting you guy;s never hardly have any answers Just questions. Or condescending remarks which shows how little you really know. GB
This is laughable GB, for you talk about us having condescending remarks and then you make one….”Which shows how little you know”.You have been presented many scriptures that show man has a choice, a will, and that he can freely follow God or reject him. That is Free choice and Free will, no matter how you cut it, men can freely choose or not to.
WJ
Hi WJ,
Good post.
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.He was lifted up and men were drawn to him,
but some just to mock him.Mt27
39And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,40And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
41Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
42He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
43He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
44The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
Nothing has changed
Quote (chosenone @ July 02 2008,09:08) If you believe man has free will, then show where is says so in scripture.
CODo you believe God is omnipresent?
Is that word found in the Bible?
There are lots of words not found in scriptures, which are implied.
Free will is simply the freedom to choose him or reject him, there are many scriptures that support this.
WJ….I could show you where you logic is wrong in a lot things you have said, But i will try to show you just some, First it appears that you do believe in the salvation of all, that i am in total agreement with. Our difference is in the way that takes place, You say if by a mans own free Will, i say it by God acting in a persons life and causing the person to chose Jesus and become saved.
I quoted where Jesus said “No man can come unto Me Unless the Father draw (Greek drag) him.” this is scripture sound as you well know.
I also quoted before , where it says “we are (created) unto good works this shows a creating process something only God can do.
I also quoted before, for it is God who works in us (both) to (will) and do his good pleasure
Now iF God does this then is it our own free will or is it God's Will.
I also quoted before where God said I will take out of you the stony Heart and Given them a heart of flesh(soft heart). the (I) here does not imply our free will, but God doing it.
I also quoted where it says unless the Lord shall build the House the weary builders toil in vain. Showing we can do it ourselves.I ask you to look up what Free Will meant the definition of the word FREE is the Key in what i am saying, i contend as well as science and psychologists , and i believe the scriptures also the every thing is the result of cause and effect and that by the definition of the word there is no such thing as (free will). The scriptures i listed above show that and i could give you more but those are sufficient.
I am glad that you don't think God is going to destroy His creation in some every burning Hell Fire of some kind. I do agree with you on the intense fiery Judgments waiting for those who resist God loving Mercy, but now at this time there is only a few chosen through God grace (influencing on their hearts) causing them to chose his way, And i also believe a time will come when all Will be saved it may take intense pressure but it will happen.
remember it says, “God concluded (all) under sin that He might have mercy on (all)” and again “the Lord is not willing that any parish”, and again “(all) who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved”. God looked for one righteous man no not One it says, there fore He took it upon His own are to bring salvation.
It says the whole creation will be delivered from the bondage of corruption, I think that includes everyone.
Anyway…..Our only difference is on How its done, not on if its done ,that's a good thing.
peace to you and yours……….gene
Hi GB,
So in context this is spoken to Israel, and not the heathen nations.
Ez 11
16Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.17Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
18And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Nick….your trying to hard to prove me wrong…….I could have just as easily used this., “the gentiles who have (Not) the law but do the things contained in them show the law of God written on their by the Hand of God. It no difference the Same God does it to all. Rather an Israelite of a gentile. Nick you really do need to start seeing the Spiritual side of things, not just the carnal side.
Hi GB,
You quote.“I also quoted before, for it is God who works in us (both) to (will) and do his good pleasure”
Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”So in CONTEXT this is written to the BODY OF CHRIST and does not speak of the pagan world
Phil 1
1Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:2Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
So it leads to wrong conclusions if you take what is written to the saints and apply it to ALL MEN.
You need to set right foundations if you wish to be a teacher.
Nick……It applies to all men…..God would that all men might be saved and i time (all) will be saved rather you like it or not, it not your call Nick, its God's call as to when and who, no little o you. Jesus came for all not a pick few and He died for (all) ,every man in his time Nick, rather you like it or not. For God has laid the iniquity of us all on Him. and again the Lord has concluded all under sin (including you Nick) that he might have mercy on (all).
Sorry if it doesn't fit you narrow view but never the less it is written.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 02 2008,09:55) WJ….I could show you where you logic is wrong in a lot things you have said, But i will try to show you just some, First it appears that you do believe in the salvation of all, that i am in total agreement with. Our difference is in the way that takes place, You say if by a mans own free Will, i say it by God acting in a persons life and causing the person to chose Jesus and become saved. I quoted where Jesus said “No man can come unto Me Unless the Father draw (Greek drag) him.” this is scripture sound as you well know.
I also quoted before , where it says “we are (created) unto good works this shows a creating process something only God can do.
I also quoted before, for it is God who works in us (both) to (will) and do his good pleasure
Now iF God does this then is it our own free will or is it God's Will.
I also quoted before where God said I will take out of you the stony Heart and Given them a heart of flesh(soft heart). the (I) here does not imply our free will, but God doing it.
I also quoted where it says unless the Lord shall build the House the weary builders toil in vain. Showing we can do it ourselves.I ask you to look up what Free Will meant the definition of the word FREE is the Key in what i am saying, i contend as well as science and psychologists , and i believe the scriptures also the every thing is the result of cause and effect and that by the definition of the word there is no such thing as (free will). The scriptures i listed above show that and i could give you more but those are sufficient.
I am glad that you don't think God is going to destroy His creation in some every burning Hell Fire of some kind. I do agree with you on the intense fiery Judgments waiting for those who resist God loving Mercy, but now at this time there is only a few chosen through God grace (influencing on their hearts) causing them to chose his way, And i also believe a time will come when all Will be saved it may take intense pressure but it will happen.
remember it says, “God concluded (all) under sin that He might have mercy on (all)” and again “the Lord is not willing that any parish”, and again “(all) who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved”. God looked for one righteous man no not One it says, there fore He took it upon His own are to bring salvation.
It says the whole creation will be delivered from the bondage of corruption, I think that includes everyone.
Anyway…..Our only difference is on How its done, not on if its done ,that's a good thing.
peace to you and yours……….gene
Hi Gene, a very good post. I totally agree.God Bless, Jerry.
Come on brother Nick,
You don't see the good explanation of Gene, you simply keep arguing in your way. Where do you end my friend? You are not able to prove any thing here by mere quoting series of certain verses please understand. All of you argue that you all have free will to choose God and good. Then go ahead and ask why many have not chosen God? Because it was not given to them. I came to the Lord because God has chosen me before the foundations of the world including the path of my life where I should be born, when I accept the Lord etc. I see there are great wonders of God in my life as He doing His complete will in my life. I was a sinner and nothing that is good lives in me I can only choose my old sinful nature but not good unless God draws me or leads me even WJ agreed this one. When God is the one leading all of you where is the question of this so called free will? You all want to nullify the Sovereignity of God in man's life that is great blunder my friends. You should be careful in thinking that man can choose his destiny by himself that's what many Gurus in India teach. They even teach that “every thing is possible for you if you control your will power and you are gods to yourselves”. These are the words of such Gurus, you want to follow them.
It is so much pathetic Christendom not realising Sovereign God's grace and mercy in their lives but they want to prove their so called free will which is nothing but self pride and self righteousness which God hates.
Be careful
AdamAdam……..Amen, Amen, Amen, brother another nail right on the hear.
The Key is How SOVEREIGN is God in a mans Life. And what is stopping that SOVEREIGNTY is His so-called (FREE WILL) Move that out of the way and a true relationship will develop in their lives. Praise God for a few that understand that.
Love to you and yours Adam…………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 02 2008,12:24) Nick……It applies to all men…..God would that all men might be saved and i time (all) will be saved rather you like it or not, it not your call Nick, its God's call as to when and who, no little o you. Jesus came for all not a pick few and He died for (all) ,every man in his time Nick, rather you like it or not. For God has laid the iniquity of us all on Him. and again the Lord has concluded all under sin (including you Nick) that he might have mercy on (all).
Sorry if it doesn't fit you narrow view but never the less it is written.
Hi Gb,God loves all.
He is love.God wants.
It is His desire.God can.
The price is paid for allGod will?
It is not written.Instead salvation depends on whether men listen to and obey His Son.[Jn3]
Nick , YOU said , instead salvation depends on whether men listen to and obey His Son.
Jesus said… no man (can) come unto me except the Father drag Him.
So the question is who are you going to believe?
Nick…… It's oblivious you don't understand the Power The Father Has to influence and cause change, you really don't think he is SOVEREIGN at all. Jesus even said it was the (FATHER) who was doing the work. Saying “the Son of Man can do nothing of Himself the Father in Me He doth the works.”
you really don't get it do you. amazing:angry:
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 02 2008,15:36) Nick , YOU said , instead salvation depends on whether men listen to and obey His Son. Jesus said… no man (can) come unto me except the Father drag Him.
So the question is who are you going to believe?
Hi GB,
When the son is lifted up men are drawn to him.
The response to him and his message defines their future.
Those who follow him through the gate are cared for by the shepherd.The rest may find mercy at the judgement.
Or they may be found to be goats.
Quote (gollamudi @ July 02 2008,13:56) Come on brother Nick,
You don't see the good explanation of Gene, you simply keep arguing in your way. Where do you end my friend? You are not able to prove any thing here by mere quoting series of certain verses please understand. All of you argue that you all have free will to choose God and good. Then go ahead and ask why many have not chosen God? Because it was not given to them. I came to the Lord because God has chosen me before the foundations of the world including the path of my life where I should be born, when I accept the Lord etc. I see there are great wonders of God in my life as He doing His complete will in my life. I was a sinner and nothing that is good lives in me I can only choose my old sinful nature but not good unless God draws me or leads me even WJ agreed this one. When God is the one leading all of you where is the question of this so called free will? You all want to nullify the Sovereignity of God in man's life that is great blunder my friends. You should be careful in thinking that man can choose his destiny by himself that's what many Gurus in India teach. They even teach that “every thing is possible for you if you control your will power and you are gods to yourselves”. These are the words of such Gurus, you want to follow them.
It is so much pathetic Christendom not realising Sovereign God's grace and mercy in their lives but they want to prove their so called free will which is nothing but self pride and self righteousness which God hates.
Be careful
Adam
Hi Adam.
Great post, amen to that.God Bless, Jerry.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2008,14:46) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 02 2008,12:24) Nick……It applies to all men…..God would that all men might be saved and i time (all) will be saved rather you like it or not, it not your call Nick, its God's call as to when and who, no little o you. Jesus came for all not a pick few and He died for (all) ,every man in his time Nick, rather you like it or not. For God has laid the iniquity of us all on Him. and again the Lord has concluded all under sin (including you Nick) that he might have mercy on (all).
Sorry if it doesn't fit you narrow view but never the less it is written.
Hi Gb,God loves all.
He is love.God wants.
It is His desire.God can.
The price is paid for allGod will?
It is not written.Instead salvation depends on whether men listen to and obey His Son.[Jn3]
Nick.
You say, God wants. It is His desire.Scripture says… “All my (God) desire I WILL DO.”
(Isaiah 46:10)Looks to me like God doesn't listen to you.
Blessings.
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