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Many on this thread seem to confuse will and power as one and the same. We may have will or the mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides on a course of action but the power to accomplish our will is however limited. IMO the almighty grants greater power for us to exercise our will as we evolve and prove we can handle it. To say we have no will or ability to make decisions is to make life meaningless. However that being said the choices often given and our relative abilitites to act upon our decisions, is not without constraints and may be set up for us by divine agency. Those who learn to harness their spirit and discipline their minds are often capable of feats outside the realm of what is consider normal for humanity. One has only to spend time with a true yogi or martial arts master to see this is so. Imagine if one has this and is likewise guided by the Spirit of God as perhaps was Jesus and miracles may not be so hard to imagine. Thoughts do manifest yet for most of us our thoughts are too weak and unfocused for us to notice any result. As mankind progresses spiritually I think the ability to act upon and focus our thoughts will be greater. As Spiderman always said, with great power comes great responsibility; I think it is part of the plan that we prove ourselves before our indivdual wills are expanded.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2008,03:57) chosenone……Have you ever wondered why these people hate the Idea of everyone being saved ultimately, I think they think we are saying they are saved without any correction taking places, but when have we ever said that, God will scourge every son He excepts He will rain fire (intense Judgments) on all, even Jesus went through a scourging and learned from it. Jesus said we shall all be salted with fire, we are not saying there is not going to be correction and punishments for all of us. In fact judgment is now on the House of God, the Father is disciplining his elect even now they are suffering his fiery judgments on them .
There is no easy way to make it into the kingdom of God for those who are now entering and all who are going to inter latter. I don't know where WJ, gets this were giving some one a license to sin from, if he think is because we say all will be saved, He is forgetting we are saving all will be saved (YET AS BY FIRE) so no one need think He is not going to give account of the things done in the flesh, those things will all be accounted for because Judgment requires it, and the corrections will take place according to the righteous Judgments of God who knows all of our Hearts and minds and Knows how to deal with all of us, and cleanse us and conform us to the Image of His dear son.
Peace to you and yours brother…………gene
GBQuote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2008,03:57) In fact judgment is now on the House of God, the Father is disciplining his elect even now they are suffering his fiery judgments on them . And just why in the world would God be disciplining and judging his elect if he has control of their wills and they have no power over their actions?
Gene, I agree. How anyone would believe a loving God, which they say knows the future, would creat someone that He would condem to eternal torture. Thank God that He does no such thing, and will save ALL mankind.
And just another point… Scripture says regarding sin, God deems, “If you have done one, you have done them all”. So in that case we are all guilty to the same degree! So why should some be saved and not all? God will be “All in all” at the consummation.Blessings.
Hi CO,
Such a philosophical question has no place in finding truth does it?
The truth is written.All are not said to be saved.
All must repent.This is not a punch and Judy show with men as puppets on a stage manipulated by an all controlling God. He wants our love.
Quote (chosenone @ July 01 2008,08:56) Gene, I agree. How anyone would believe a loving God, which they say knows the future, would creat someone that He would condem to eternal torture. Thank God that He does no such thing, and will save ALL mankind.
And just another point… Scripture says regarding sin, God deems, “If you have done one, you have done them all”. So in that case we are all guilty to the same degree! So why should some be saved and not all? God will be “All in all” at the consummation.Blessings.
COThen everyman will be cast into the lake of fire then, right???
Since we are all guilty of all sin then we should all recieve the same punishment.
Foolishness and a lie.
No Yeshua died to remove the guilt of sin here and now for all those who believe.
Yeshua came to take away the judgment of hell and the sin for every believer that takes up us his cross and follows him.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 01 2008,09:05) Quote (chosenone @ July 01 2008,08:56) Gene, I agree. How anyone would believe a loving God, which they say knows the future, would creat someone that He would condem to eternal torture. Thank God that He does no such thing, and will save ALL mankind.
And just another point… Scripture says regarding sin, God deems, “If you have done one, you have done them all”. So in that case we are all guilty to the same degree! So why should some be saved and not all? God will be “All in all” at the consummation.Blessings.
COThen everyman will be cast into the lake of fire then, right???
Since we are all guilty of all sin then we should all recieve the same punishment.
Foolishness and a lie.
No Yeshua died to remove the guilt of sin here and now for all those who believe.
Yeshua came to take away the judgment of hell and the sin for every believer that takes up us his cross and follows him.
Hi WJ.
Agreed, we are all sinners saved by grace, the “grace of God”. Christ Jesus has justified us all by His death and ressurrection. God sees our sin no more.
As with this deed of Christ, it was not of us, we had no part in our “justification”. As will be with ALL mankind, nothing WE can do will save us, God will do it ALL.See (Eph.2:8-10) 8 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present,
9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting.
10 For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.Notice it says..”and this is NOT out of you.”
Also it says…”For HIS (GOD) achievement are we.”
How can we not believe these words?
Blessing.
Hi CO,
You should not apply the ALL of the teachings of Ephesians to ALL men.
It was written not as preaching to the lost but as teachings to the saintsEph 1
1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:You should correctly cut the Word.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 01 2008,09:05) Quote (chosenone @ July 01 2008,08:56) Gene, I agree. How anyone would believe a loving God, which they say knows the future, would creat someone that He would condem to eternal torture. Thank God that He does no such thing, and will save ALL mankind.
And just another point… Scripture says regarding sin, God deems, “If you have done one, you have done them all”. So in that case we are all guilty to the same degree! So why should some be saved and not all? God will be “All in all” at the consummation.Blessings.
COThen everyman will be cast into the lake of fire then, right???
Since we are all guilty of all sin then we should all receive the same punishment.
Foolishness and a lie.
No Yeshua died to remove the guilt of sin here and now for all those who believe.
Yeshua came to take away the judgment of hell and the sin for every believer that takes up us his cross and follows him.
Quote (chosenone @ July 01 2008,09:34)
Hi WJ.
Agreed, we are all sinners saved by grace, the “grace of God”. Christ Jesus has justified us all by His death and ressurrection. God sees our sin no more.HMMM! You sound confused for earlier you said…
Quote (chosenone @ June 30 2008,14:42) WJ.
Answer to question 1. Only Christ Jesus has been saved, the rest are still waiting.Quote (chosenone @ July 01 2008,09:34)
As with this deed of Christ, it was not of us, we had no part in our “justification”.As will be with ALL mankind, nothing WE can do will save us, God will do it ALL.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Matt 12:37
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:24True, we can not add to the sacrifice of Yeshua for our sins, this is why we must repent, (an act of our will), so that we may find forgiveness of our sins through his blood. Faith without works is dead.
Quote (chosenone @ July 01 2008,09:34)
See (Eph.2:8-10) 8 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present,
9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting.
10 For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.Notice it says..”and this is NOT out of you.”
Of Course it is not of us when we ‘walk” in his Spirit. Notice it says “We should be walking in them”. But not all do. This is why Paul rebuked the carnal Corinthian church, for when they should have been able to eat strong meat they were still sucking on milk.That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Rom 8:4, 5
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom 8:12, 13
Do you see the principle? We have two natures, the old, or the flesh, and the New or the Spirit. Scriptures clearly teach that we are to “Walk” in the Spirit which is a free choice that I can make in following God.
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but “yield” yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. Rom 6:13
Know ye not, that to whom ye “yield” yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Rom 6:16
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now “yield” your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. Rom 6:19
Notice the words “Yield”? It is the Greek word ‘paristēmi’, which means;
1) to place beside or near
a) to set at hand
1) to presentIt’s the same Greek word here…
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye “present” (‘paristēmi’) your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service. Rom 12:1All through the scriptures the principle of Man working with God by yielding ourselves, or submitting ourselves, or presenting our bodies to the Lord in obedience to his Spirit and word is taught. If we live in the Spirit let us also walk in the Spirit. God doesn’t force us or make us do these things. He has given us everything we need, now it is up to us to follow.
But you and GB and GM would teach that all we have to do is just hold on to the end, it really doesn’t matter because God is in control and makes you do these things. Which is a lie and negates our responsibility to deny ourselves in following him. It also negates the scriptures mentioned and many others
Quote (chosenone @ July 01 2008,09:34)
Also it says…”For HIS (GOD) achievement are we.”How can we not believe these words?
Blessing.
Yes we are Gods achievement. But never the less we must run.Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend (to lay hold of) that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as
many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Phil 3:12-15Notice Paul says “I Press” toward the mark for the Prize. God didn’t make Paul press. He chose to press because of the call of Yeshua on his life.
Paul had the freedom to say Yes Lord or no Lord, just as everyman has the freedom of choice. In Christ Jesus we have been made free. WJ
Wj………Jesus died for the sins of the world that's true. and God has concluded all under sin that he might have mercy on ALL, not Just a picky few, but all. With that given then how does it all come about without Gods Spirit Creating it in us, You maintain the Man himself has to repent and do it, we maintain GOD does it through His Holy Spirit which is the love of God poured into our hearts causing repentance and change. You say it's man work that does it , we say its Gods work that does it, For while we were yet sinners God sent His son to did for the ungodly. Salvation works in three stages, first forgiveness i.e Jesus' death on the cross, second repentance given By Gods spirit,and third being cleansed, by the washing of God's word. No man can truly repent without the judgement of God . Judgment is a must and it begins at the house of God. What because we say God save us, we mean a magic pill of some kind, when did we ever imply that, Your getting like you minis Nick putting words in peoples mouth. No God scourges every son He excepts as scripture plainly said we never implied anything different .
WJ …> and every man is cast into a fire ( intense Judgments) Didn't Jesus say you shall be salted with fire. and again, know this that the (fire trials) that has tried you as if some strange thing has happened unto you. Don;t kid yourself (EVERYONE) goes through the fire and is tried. even the ones whoes sins have been forgive all are going through fire trial and if you as a preacher don't know that by now you never will, how many people in your congregation are experiencing fire trials there is no magic pill here God wants and planned it that that way, He wants tried, tested and seasoned children. Fully experienced in the knowledge of good and evil. Or why would He ever put us through this when he could have easily stopped it any time he wanted to.
You ask why would God be disciplining us if he had power over or wills, Because the experience is need full and the Judgments are the process of changing our wills to conform to His will. Our will are not going to be done in the Kingdom of God< Only Gods WILL will be done. And the judgments of God is transforming our thinking which changes our will to conform to His will. There is no magic pill its a process over time and experience. All those people you tell are saved why doesn't God just take them then why do they continue to suffer and will till they die, if its without purpose.
This whole issue is supposed to be over all being saved and you and Nick turn it into another subject of How they are saved, so I ask you how are 90% of the whole world thrown into literal lake of fire and burned into all eternity buy a (LOVING) GOD. It time for you people to answer some questions instead of Just keep asking them, Its interesting you guy;s never hardly have any answers Just questions. Or condescending remarks which shows how little you really know.
GB
You are so contradictory. One minute you are saying we dont have a will that we can choose and that only God does, the next minute you are saying he is diciplining us to conform our wills to his.
I dont have time but will adress your post later.
WJ…..Please show me where is said we don't have a will, please show me that statement. I only have said we don't have a (FREE) WILL i never said we don't have a WILL, to my Knowledge, so show me and I will apologies for saying that. Because that would be a contradiction.
peace……….gene
Gene….do we just have a free will to think, to decide how we are going to think about (subject), EITHER towards good or evil thoughts in which will produce the following actions!
Abraham chose to have a decision, he chose to look some where else, and with out free choice we just do whatever is in front of us, without thought?
Moses covernent offers no choice, to the people.
Davids kingdom and covenent allows everyone to either sacrifice or not. live as you need, faith or faithless unto needing sacrifices.Charity…..You have a God given mind that thinks but that mind can be held captive by its thoughts. Jesus said He came to set the Captives Free , what did He mean by that?, was it not to free people from the captivity of there wrong thinking. You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Free of what?, of wrong thinking.
love and peace to you charity…………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2008,16:22) Charity…..You have a God given mind that thinks but that mind can be held captive by its thoughts. Jesus said He came to set the Captives Free , what did He mean by that?, was it not to free people from the captivity of there wrong thinking. You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Free of what?, of wrong thinking. love and peace to you charity…………gene
But even Paul said the thing he didn't want to do – he did that very thing. And the good he wanted to do – this he did not do (paraphrased Mandy version).Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2008,08:59) Hi CO,
Such a philosophical question has no place in finding truth does it?
The truth is written.All are not said to be saved.
All must repent.This is not a punch and Judy show with men as puppets on a stage manipulated by an all controlling God. He wants our love.
Nick.
34 For, who knew the mind of the Lord? or, who became His adviser?
35 or, who gives to Him first, and it will be repaid Him?
36 seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!This is in Ro.11:34-36, but this must be another scripture to be deleted in the “gospel of Nick”.
Blessings.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2008,16:22) Charity…..You have a God given mind that thinks but that mind can be held captive by its thoughts. Jesus said He came to set the Captives Free , what did He mean by that?, was it not to free people from the captivity of there wrong thinking. You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Free of what?, of wrong thinking. love and peace to you charity…………gene
Gene
Hypnotizers Main ingredient, shatter the choice at the gates.So the mind is taken captive, and yes Paul our science Apostle, saw the problem back then, and tried to salvage the mess of the John like followers, that were turning the grace into Law again.
eg,…John invents the “you choose” by action, and burdens us with the you “MUST” be born again, I TURNS IT TO A Take the salvation pill, or die?
then to use peters invention of words, without the taste of Law , Paul sways, “being then born again “of a good seed or bad seed, which invents a no free will, something that happens to us all anyway, for better for worse. Ending in Sown in thinking. Which is reality of thinking; we are what we are while we believe what we beleive!Every one receives his reward, some fail a full reward?
Believe the Law is holy; receive your Life then to live under its power and guidance, because the mind may never free itself from the guilt of falling from what it calls the perfect soul
Hi cato,
I agree with you that many are confused with 'will' and 'free will'. Yes we are having the will to do some thing but that will is as a result of cause and effects in the world nothing is free from influence in our lives. That's what we are arguing here.
peace to you.
AdamQuote (WorshippingJesus @ July 01 2008,11:19) GB You are so contradictory. One minute you are saying we dont have a will that we can choose and that only God does, the next minute you are saying he is diciplining us to conform our wills to his.
I dont have time but will adress your post later.
WJ……….still waiting for proof of contradictions of Will Subject, If you refuse to produce it then I will be forced to conclude you Just trying to discredit me or Just out right lying.IMO……gene
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