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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2008,15:50) DK…….you have not produced any thing that shows where I posted was in error so why don't you Just conceder it and think about it. What i have seen that this Hits the heart of all false Christianity, and i know it's not popular, but non the less I believe it to be true. If you get time Read 2Thes2 and when you see the man of sin being desplayed as God, Just put Jesus' name there and follow it through to when He returns and Abolishes the (LIE) Ask yourself whats that Lie is, It the Jesus who is now sitting beside the majesty on High and is being shown Himself as a God, (the trinity) a LIE that He will Abolish at His return, But the reason i am telling you this is so you can see how man wants to create more Gods and even with the teaching of So-Called Free Will is just a form of creating another God and that God is the person Himself because He thinks His Will is what is controlling his destiny, there are millions of (I) god Christians today.
check it out for yourself…………..gene
I and many others have produced countless scriptures that explain away your theories..here are some moreAmos 5:14 .. 14 Seek good, not evil,
that you may live.
Then the LORD God Almighty will be with you,
just as you say he is.Joel 2:13 … 13 Rend your heart
and not your garments.
Return to the LORD your God,
for he is gracious and compassionate,
slow to anger and abounding in love,
and he relents from sending calamity.Obadiah 1:15 … 15 “The day of the LORD is near
for all nations.
As you have done, it will be done to you;
your deeds will return upon your own head.Mark 7:21-23…21 For from within, out of a person’s heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, lustful desires, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. 23 All these vile things come from within; they are what defile you.”
Jeremiah 17:9…9 “The human heart is the most deceitful of all things,
and desperately wicked.
Who really knows how bad it is?Luke 6:45 …45 A good person produces good things from the treasury of a good heart, and an evil person produces evil things from the treasury of an evil heart. What you say flows from what is in your heart.
Luke 8:14…14 The seeds that fell among the thorns represent those who hear the message, but all too quickly the message is crowded out by the cares and riches and pleasures of this life. And so they never grow into maturity.
1 John 3:3..3 And all who have this eager expectation will keep themselves pure, just as he is pure.
Deuteronomy 30:19… 19 “Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. Now I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, so that you and your descendants might live!
Joshua 24:15…15 But if you refuse to serve the Lord, then choose today whom you will serve. Would you prefer the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates? Or will it be the gods of the Amorites in whose land you now live? But as for me and my family, we will serve the Lord.”
1 Kings 18:21…21 Then Elijah stood in front of them and said, “How much longer will you waver, hobbling between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him! But if Baal is God, then follow him!” But the people were completely silent.
And here is another question…
How real is our faith if we REALLY DID NOT have to put in any effort into following god?
What is the point of a scripture like this:
1 Peter 1:7-8 …7These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,
Hi GB
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2008,15:08)
Question………why does puny man think He controls His destiny then, with his own Will or so-called (FREE Will)? . When he is actually held captive by that very Will in Him which shows it is in no way FREE, by any means>So tell me Gene, if God controlls everyones destiny, then why does he let some die in their sins and face the great white throne Judgment? Why does God let all the evils continue against the little children of the world? If God controlls these mens destiny then you are saying God made them do it.
Is God a respector of persons and chooses some to be saved and some not? Where is his sovereign will to have all men be saved. Is Mans will greater than his?
So when you sin do you say “my flesh made me do it, or the devil made me do it, or do you repent and take the responsibility by calling it what it was, you choosing to rebel against God and not submitting to his Spirit?
Your doctrine gives license to sin and leaves no responsibility on a mans part to choose to follow the truth or not to.
This goes against every parable and the teachings of Yeshua that shows men could choose or not.
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you–even Jesus. Acts 3:19, 20
WJ
Is having limited choices is 'free will' my brother?. Even these choices are set by somebody not that you have every thing for you to choose freely. If God is not having control on lives we would have been lost forever. He is somuch merciful to draw us towards Him otherwise there are many in this world though they seem to have this so called 'free will' could not choose to come to God's saving grace. I prefer God's will better than my 'free will' even if I have one what was taught by our only Master Jesus.
Here only I differ with you, WJ and Nick on free will.
Thanks
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ June 29 2008,16:33) Is having limited choices is 'free will' my brother?. Even these choices are set by somebody not that you have every thing for you to choose freely. If God is not having control on lives we would have been lost forever. He is somuch merciful to draw us towards Him otherwise there are many in this world though they seem to have this so called 'free will' could not choose to come to God's saving grace. I prefer God's will better than my 'free will' even if I have one what was taught by our only Master Jesus.
Here only I differ with you, WJ and Nick on free will.
Thanks
Adam
GMYou still have not answered the question.
If it is God's sovereign will for all to be saved, then why are they not?
If God is in controll of all men then why does man still commit horrible crimes?
Quote (gollamudi @ June 29 2008,16:33) Is having limited choices is 'free will' my brother?. Even these choices are set by somebody not that you have every thing for you to choose freely. If God is not having control on lives we would have been lost forever. He is somuch merciful to draw us towards Him otherwise there are many in this world though they seem to have this so called 'free will' could not choose to come to God's saving grace. I prefer God's will better than my 'free will' even if I have one what was taught by our only Master Jesus.
Here only I differ with you, WJ and Nick on free will.
Thanks
Adam
I agree with the basics of this post…except I chose GOD's WILL…thats not pride…that's humbling myself under the might hand of GOD..and rebuking my fleshQuote (gollamudi @ June 29 2008,16:45) Thank you brother Dk and I thank you my Master and Lord Jesus for this revelation given to us.
AmenQuote (WorshippingJesus @ June 29 2008,16:37) Quote (gollamudi @ June 29 2008,16:33) Is having limited choices is 'free will' my brother?. Even these choices are set by somebody not that you have every thing for you to choose freely. If God is not having control on lives we would have been lost forever. He is somuch merciful to draw us towards Him otherwise there are many in this world though they seem to have this so called 'free will' could not choose to come to God's saving grace. I prefer God's will better than my 'free will' even if I have one what was taught by our only Master Jesus.
Here only I differ with you, WJ and Nick on free will.
Thanks
Adam
GMYou still have not answered the question.
If it is God's sovereign will for all to be saved, then why are they not?
If God is in controll of all men then why does man still commit horrible crimes?
WJ.
Answer to question 1. Only Christ Jesus has been saved, the rest are still waiting.Answer to question 2. To know the knowledge of good.
See Gen.3:22…And saying is Ieue Alueim, “Behold! The human becomes as one of us, knowing good and evil.”Blessings.
Thanks Adam, sometimes it is difficult to swim against the current, but we trust in God.
Blessings, Jerry.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 29 2008,16:37) Quote (gollamudi @ June 29 2008,16:33) Is having limited choices is 'free will' my brother?. Even these choices are set by somebody not that you have every thing for you to choose freely. If God is not having control on lives we would have been lost forever. He is somuch merciful to draw us towards Him otherwise there are many in this world though they seem to have this so called 'free will' could not choose to come to God's saving grace. I prefer God's will better than my 'free will' even if I have one what was taught by our only Master Jesus.
Here only I differ with you, WJ and Nick on free will.
Thanks
Adam
GMYou still have not answered the question.
If it is God's sovereign will for all to be saved, then why are they not?
If God is in controll of all men then why does man still commit horrible crimes?
Quote (chosenone @ June 30 2008,14:42)
WJ.
Answer to question 1. Only Christ Jesus has been saved, the rest are still waiting.Really? So now Yeshua had to be saved? What did he need to be saved from? Was it sin? How can the perfect sinless Lamb of God have needed “salvation”?
But let’s say that what you are saying is true. Then tell my why the all loving, all knowing, and all powerful, sovereign God would not save all men “NOW” since it is his will and since men do not have any power over their own wills? Why does he sit back and watch men commit all these atrocities and not do anything about it? Is this just a chess game to him and we are just pawns that God moves when and how he wants?
I see now why you believe some of the things you believe, for with your own mouth you admit you are not saved yet.
Well sis, I am saved. The moment that Yeshua came into my life and his precious blood cleansed me of my sins and I received the Gift of the Holy Spirit, that moment I was born into his Kingdom.
Quote (chosenone @ June 30 2008,14:42)
Answer to question 2. To know the knowledge of good.
See Gen.3:22…And saying is Ieue Alueim, “Behold! The human becomes as one of us, knowing good and evil.” Blessings.So God who is all loving causes men to commit all these horrible acts of evil so that we might know good? Foolishness!
Is this how you raised your own children? To teach them good you teach them evil so they know what good is. If this is true then I would assume that the more evil that we know then the more good we can understand, right?
So we should take our children to an execution so they can learn thou shalt not kill? But if we really want them to know how evil, evil is, let’s take them to watch the raping of a little child?
To believe that God does evil so he can teach us good is a lie!It’s the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. My children know my love by my being with them when they hurt, or helping them when they are in need, or hugging them and telling them that I love them, and not by showing or teaching them evil.
To be “saved” is to have Eternal life now. An abundant life Yeshua spoke of. It is the Kingdom of God within us which is righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Yes we are working out our salvation and it is a progression. But it started the day the incorruptible seed, the word of God was born in my heart.
CO, How do you interpret the following scriptures that says the believer is saved now?
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also **ye are saved**, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Cor 15:1-4
For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them **that are saved**, and in them that perish: 2 Cor 2:15
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace **ye are saved**;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:5-9
Who **hath saved us**, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2 Tim 1:9
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he **saved us**, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Titus 3:4-6
When the blood of the Passover Lamb, the precious blood of Yeshua, was placed on the doorpost of my heart and life, that day I was and I am saved!!!
Blessings! WJ
Dk and WJ, i don't even know where to begin, Do you both think for a moment that God could not stop all this evil if he wanted to. And if He doesn't then why not then, do you think it's because he's waiting for Carnal man to some how figure it all out and repent because he has the capacity to do that, when he plainly says he doesn't have a mind to change to his ways in him saying it is not within a man to direct his paths,and if he does as you two think then why o why is this evil world worse then it ever was. If you can't see design and purpose to all of this then you just cant see.
Wj…you ask when I sin do i say my flesh made me do it , no if its a sin of lust i say it like it is what ever sin it is, and then i confess it to My Heavenly Father and ask for forgiveness, and power to overcome it, and guess what it works for me, doesn't it say, if any one sin let him confess it to God and He is faithful to forgive it and (MORE) cleans us from (ALL) unrighteousness. So who is doing the cleansing me by my free will or God the Father by his power. Did i repent or did God cause me to repent, am i saving myself or God saving me.
You say my doctrine gives license to sin in what way does it give license to sin a man will do whats in Him and the fear you give out can constrain Him, you tell him he going to hell and burn for all eternity for his sins unless he stops , a good fear tactic and it has some results, Because the Carnal mind is not Subject to the laws of God , but it is subject to fear, So God the Father took His loving spiritual commandments and turned them into (LAW) i.e. forced compliance, if they did not do them they were killed and one man was killed for starting a fire on the sabbath day. Fear was used to force compliance much what you echo in what your saying, but what doe scripture say, ” you brethren have not come to that mountain burning and quacking to (FEAR) as they did. When God's spirit is in you it gives you a new nature and you don't need fear , but the Love of God shed around in your heart cause us to love one another and the desires of the carnal nature is dying daily. I listen to minsters using fear and wounder why do they do that, it says in John perfect Love cast out Fear, but i see them casting in fear and all the time saying they are representing a Loving God.
I will say this if God is not controlling everyones destiny and does not have a plan by allowing all this evil, He would be the biggest Monster that ever lived. And not only that he would be the biggest failure that ever existed seeing that about 90% of all of mankind never even heard of the name of Jesus.. You my friends don't know the Love patience and Power to save that our God the Father Has. None of it's up to you or I, it's all up to the Father ALONE>
peace to you both………..gene
WJ.
His (God) ways are not your ways, His ways will save ALL mankind, 1Cor.15:28…that God may be All in all (not All in some).Blessings.
Hi
This is my first post on this board. I have been reading it for about two years. I have learned a lot from everyone here.
Free Will is an amazing subject. My understanding of what is being said is only God has free will. That makes complete sense after thinking it through.
Man's will is limited to his learned experiences. Cause and effect. Everything that man does is within those parameters. He cannot act other wise because he is the victim of his own thoughts, learned experiences.
I have beleived this process a long time without putting in into words. I think everyone gets out of bed in the morning and attempts to do what they think it right. In other words they take a positive action.
Many things fall into place in the bible when this doctrine is applied.
Thaks for the informaiton.
Keep up the good work.
Hi 97407,
Welcome to the wonderful family of Heavennet. Your simple words prove that God has led you into that amazing Truth that 'free will given to men' is a myth. Do share more in this forum.
peace to you.
Adamchosenone……Have you ever wondered why these people hate the Idea of everyone being saved ultimately, I think they think we are saying they are saved without any correction taking places, but when have we ever said that, God will scourge every son He excepts He will rain fire (intense Judgments) on all, even Jesus went through a scourging and learned from it.
Jesus said we shall all be salted with fire, we are not saying there is not going to be correction and punishments for all of us. In fact judgment is now on the House of God, the Father is disciplining his elect even now they are suffering his fiery judgments on them .
There is no easy way to make it into the kingdom of God for those who are now entering and all who are going to inter latter. I don't know where WJ, gets this were giving some one a license to sin from, if he think is because we say all will be saved, He is forgetting we are saving all will be saved (YET AS BY FIRE) so no one need think He is not going to give account of the things done in the flesh, those things will all be accounted for because Judgment requires it, and the corrections will take place according to the righteous Judgments of God who knows all of our Hearts and minds and Knows how to deal with all of us, and cleanse us and conform us to the Image of His dear son.
Peace to you and yours brother…………gene
“Free Will” when understood in this context causes many questions to be asked and leads us into “Selection” or election.
God does the choosing and his choices were preordained foom the beginning. When he taps you on the sholder, you begin to see through the darkness and willingly begin to investigate. You have become his.
The Holy Spirit that has entered into your being begins to guide you into understanding just as it did with Jesus. The only thing that God expects from you is to follow that road. You willingly submit to his will.
Do you think I am on the right track?
What a wonderful God.
IMHO
Hi 97407,
Certainly brother, you are being led by the Spirit of God. You know I was also believing this so called free will earlier. I started unlearning this myth by the teaching of brothers like Gene and Chosenone. It amazes me how God draws us towards Him through His Holy Spirit. yes you are right when you told that we are foreordained by God our Father in Christ before the foundations of the world. See the verses in Eph 1:4-114 “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will”
These are the verses which confirm yours and my belief. Do you know some thing on preexistence of Jesus? if so please share some thing on that thread.
May God bless you and keep you safe in His powerful hands.
Adam
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