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And here is another question…
How real is our faith if we REALLY DID NOT have to put in any effort into following god?
What is the point of a scripture like this:
1 Peter 1:7-8 …7These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,
Hi GB
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2008,15:08)
Question………why does puny man think He controls His destiny then, with his own Will or so-called (FREE Will)? . When he is actually held captive by that very Will in Him which shows it is in no way FREE, by any means>So tell me Gene, if God controlls everyones destiny, then why does he let some die in their sins and face the great white throne Judgment? Why does God let all the evils continue against the little children of the world? If God controlls these mens destiny then you are saying God made them do it.
Is God a respector of persons and chooses some to be saved and some not? Where is his sovereign will to have all men be saved. Is Mans will greater than his?
So when you sin do you say “my flesh made me do it, or the devil made me do it, or do you repent and take the responsibility by calling it what it was, you choosing to rebel against God and not submitting to his Spirit?
Your doctrine gives license to sin and leaves no responsibility on a mans part to choose to follow the truth or not to.
This goes against every parable and the teachings of Yeshua that shows men could choose or not.
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you–even Jesus. Acts 3:19, 20
WJ
Is having limited choices is 'free will' my brother?. Even these choices are set by somebody not that you have every thing for you to choose freely. If God is not having control on lives we would have been lost forever. He is somuch merciful to draw us towards Him otherwise there are many in this world though they seem to have this so called 'free will' could not choose to come to God's saving grace. I prefer God's will better than my 'free will' even if I have one what was taught by our only Master Jesus.
Here only I differ with you, WJ and Nick on free will.
Thanks
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ June 29 2008,16:33) Is having limited choices is 'free will' my brother?. Even these choices are set by somebody not that you have every thing for you to choose freely. If God is not having control on lives we would have been lost forever. He is somuch merciful to draw us towards Him otherwise there are many in this world though they seem to have this so called 'free will' could not choose to come to God's saving grace. I prefer God's will better than my 'free will' even if I have one what was taught by our only Master Jesus.
Here only I differ with you, WJ and Nick on free will.
Thanks
Adam
GMYou still have not answered the question.
If it is God's sovereign will for all to be saved, then why are they not?
If God is in controll of all men then why does man still commit horrible crimes?
Quote (gollamudi @ June 29 2008,16:33) Is having limited choices is 'free will' my brother?. Even these choices are set by somebody not that you have every thing for you to choose freely. If God is not having control on lives we would have been lost forever. He is somuch merciful to draw us towards Him otherwise there are many in this world though they seem to have this so called 'free will' could not choose to come to God's saving grace. I prefer God's will better than my 'free will' even if I have one what was taught by our only Master Jesus.
Here only I differ with you, WJ and Nick on free will.
Thanks
Adam
I agree with the basics of this post…except I chose GOD's WILL…thats not pride…that's humbling myself under the might hand of GOD..and rebuking my fleshQuote (gollamudi @ June 29 2008,16:45) Thank you brother Dk and I thank you my Master and Lord Jesus for this revelation given to us.
AmenQuote (WorshippingJesus @ June 29 2008,16:37) Quote (gollamudi @ June 29 2008,16:33) Is having limited choices is 'free will' my brother?. Even these choices are set by somebody not that you have every thing for you to choose freely. If God is not having control on lives we would have been lost forever. He is somuch merciful to draw us towards Him otherwise there are many in this world though they seem to have this so called 'free will' could not choose to come to God's saving grace. I prefer God's will better than my 'free will' even if I have one what was taught by our only Master Jesus.
Here only I differ with you, WJ and Nick on free will.
Thanks
Adam
GMYou still have not answered the question.
If it is God's sovereign will for all to be saved, then why are they not?
If God is in controll of all men then why does man still commit horrible crimes?
WJ.
Answer to question 1. Only Christ Jesus has been saved, the rest are still waiting.Answer to question 2. To know the knowledge of good.
See Gen.3:22…And saying is Ieue Alueim, “Behold! The human becomes as one of us, knowing good and evil.”Blessings.
Thanks Adam, sometimes it is difficult to swim against the current, but we trust in God.
Blessings, Jerry.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 29 2008,16:37) Quote (gollamudi @ June 29 2008,16:33) Is having limited choices is 'free will' my brother?. Even these choices are set by somebody not that you have every thing for you to choose freely. If God is not having control on lives we would have been lost forever. He is somuch merciful to draw us towards Him otherwise there are many in this world though they seem to have this so called 'free will' could not choose to come to God's saving grace. I prefer God's will better than my 'free will' even if I have one what was taught by our only Master Jesus.
Here only I differ with you, WJ and Nick on free will.
Thanks
Adam
GMYou still have not answered the question.
If it is God's sovereign will for all to be saved, then why are they not?
If God is in controll of all men then why does man still commit horrible crimes?
Quote (chosenone @ June 30 2008,14:42)
WJ.
Answer to question 1. Only Christ Jesus has been saved, the rest are still waiting.Really? So now Yeshua had to be saved? What did he need to be saved from? Was it sin? How can the perfect sinless Lamb of God have needed “salvation”?
But let’s say that what you are saying is true. Then tell my why the all loving, all knowing, and all powerful, sovereign God would not save all men “NOW” since it is his will and since men do not have any power over their own wills? Why does he sit back and watch men commit all these atrocities and not do anything about it? Is this just a chess game to him and we are just pawns that God moves when and how he wants?
I see now why you believe some of the things you believe, for with your own mouth you admit you are not saved yet.
Well sis, I am saved. The moment that Yeshua came into my life and his precious blood cleansed me of my sins and I received the Gift of the Holy Spirit, that moment I was born into his Kingdom.
Quote (chosenone @ June 30 2008,14:42)
Answer to question 2. To know the knowledge of good.
See Gen.3:22…And saying is Ieue Alueim, “Behold! The human becomes as one of us, knowing good and evil.” Blessings.So God who is all loving causes men to commit all these horrible acts of evil so that we might know good? Foolishness!
Is this how you raised your own children? To teach them good you teach them evil so they know what good is. If this is true then I would assume that the more evil that we know then the more good we can understand, right?
So we should take our children to an execution so they can learn thou shalt not kill? But if we really want them to know how evil, evil is, let’s take them to watch the raping of a little child?
To believe that God does evil so he can teach us good is a lie!It’s the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. My children know my love by my being with them when they hurt, or helping them when they are in need, or hugging them and telling them that I love them, and not by showing or teaching them evil.
To be “saved” is to have Eternal life now. An abundant life Yeshua spoke of. It is the Kingdom of God within us which is righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Yes we are working out our salvation and it is a progression. But it started the day the incorruptible seed, the word of God was born in my heart.
CO, How do you interpret the following scriptures that says the believer is saved now?
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also **ye are saved**, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Cor 15:1-4
For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them **that are saved**, and in them that perish: 2 Cor 2:15
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace **ye are saved**;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:5-9
Who **hath saved us**, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2 Tim 1:9
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he **saved us**, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Titus 3:4-6
When the blood of the Passover Lamb, the precious blood of Yeshua, was placed on the doorpost of my heart and life, that day I was and I am saved!!!
Blessings! WJ
Dk and WJ, i don't even know where to begin, Do you both think for a moment that God could not stop all this evil if he wanted to. And if He doesn't then why not then, do you think it's because he's waiting for Carnal man to some how figure it all out and repent because he has the capacity to do that, when he plainly says he doesn't have a mind to change to his ways in him saying it is not within a man to direct his paths,and if he does as you two think then why o why is this evil world worse then it ever was. If you can't see design and purpose to all of this then you just cant see.
Wj…you ask when I sin do i say my flesh made me do it , no if its a sin of lust i say it like it is what ever sin it is, and then i confess it to My Heavenly Father and ask for forgiveness, and power to overcome it, and guess what it works for me, doesn't it say, if any one sin let him confess it to God and He is faithful to forgive it and (MORE) cleans us from (ALL) unrighteousness. So who is doing the cleansing me by my free will or God the Father by his power. Did i repent or did God cause me to repent, am i saving myself or God saving me.
You say my doctrine gives license to sin in what way does it give license to sin a man will do whats in Him and the fear you give out can constrain Him, you tell him he going to hell and burn for all eternity for his sins unless he stops , a good fear tactic and it has some results, Because the Carnal mind is not Subject to the laws of God , but it is subject to fear, So God the Father took His loving spiritual commandments and turned them into (LAW) i.e. forced compliance, if they did not do them they were killed and one man was killed for starting a fire on the sabbath day. Fear was used to force compliance much what you echo in what your saying, but what doe scripture say, ” you brethren have not come to that mountain burning and quacking to (FEAR) as they did. When God's spirit is in you it gives you a new nature and you don't need fear , but the Love of God shed around in your heart cause us to love one another and the desires of the carnal nature is dying daily. I listen to minsters using fear and wounder why do they do that, it says in John perfect Love cast out Fear, but i see them casting in fear and all the time saying they are representing a Loving God.
I will say this if God is not controlling everyones destiny and does not have a plan by allowing all this evil, He would be the biggest Monster that ever lived. And not only that he would be the biggest failure that ever existed seeing that about 90% of all of mankind never even heard of the name of Jesus.. You my friends don't know the Love patience and Power to save that our God the Father Has. None of it's up to you or I, it's all up to the Father ALONE>
peace to you both………..gene
WJ.
His (God) ways are not your ways, His ways will save ALL mankind, 1Cor.15:28…that God may be All in all (not All in some).Blessings.
Hi
This is my first post on this board. I have been reading it for about two years. I have learned a lot from everyone here.
Free Will is an amazing subject. My understanding of what is being said is only God has free will. That makes complete sense after thinking it through.
Man's will is limited to his learned experiences. Cause and effect. Everything that man does is within those parameters. He cannot act other wise because he is the victim of his own thoughts, learned experiences.
I have beleived this process a long time without putting in into words. I think everyone gets out of bed in the morning and attempts to do what they think it right. In other words they take a positive action.
Many things fall into place in the bible when this doctrine is applied.
Thaks for the informaiton.
Keep up the good work.
Hi 97407,
Welcome to the wonderful family of Heavennet. Your simple words prove that God has led you into that amazing Truth that 'free will given to men' is a myth. Do share more in this forum.
peace to you.
Adamchosenone……Have you ever wondered why these people hate the Idea of everyone being saved ultimately, I think they think we are saying they are saved without any correction taking places, but when have we ever said that, God will scourge every son He excepts He will rain fire (intense Judgments) on all, even Jesus went through a scourging and learned from it.
Jesus said we shall all be salted with fire, we are not saying there is not going to be correction and punishments for all of us. In fact judgment is now on the House of God, the Father is disciplining his elect even now they are suffering his fiery judgments on them .
There is no easy way to make it into the kingdom of God for those who are now entering and all who are going to inter latter. I don't know where WJ, gets this were giving some one a license to sin from, if he think is because we say all will be saved, He is forgetting we are saving all will be saved (YET AS BY FIRE) so no one need think He is not going to give account of the things done in the flesh, those things will all be accounted for because Judgment requires it, and the corrections will take place according to the righteous Judgments of God who knows all of our Hearts and minds and Knows how to deal with all of us, and cleanse us and conform us to the Image of His dear son.
Peace to you and yours brother…………gene
“Free Will” when understood in this context causes many questions to be asked and leads us into “Selection” or election.
God does the choosing and his choices were preordained foom the beginning. When he taps you on the sholder, you begin to see through the darkness and willingly begin to investigate. You have become his.
The Holy Spirit that has entered into your being begins to guide you into understanding just as it did with Jesus. The only thing that God expects from you is to follow that road. You willingly submit to his will.
Do you think I am on the right track?
What a wonderful God.
IMHO
Hi 97407,
Certainly brother, you are being led by the Spirit of God. You know I was also believing this so called free will earlier. I started unlearning this myth by the teaching of brothers like Gene and Chosenone. It amazes me how God draws us towards Him through His Holy Spirit. yes you are right when you told that we are foreordained by God our Father in Christ before the foundations of the world. See the verses in Eph 1:4-114 “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will”
These are the verses which confirm yours and my belief. Do you know some thing on preexistence of Jesus? if so please share some thing on that thread.
May God bless you and keep you safe in His powerful hands.
AdamMany on this thread seem to confuse will and power as one and the same. We may have will or the mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides on a course of action but the power to accomplish our will is however limited. IMO the almighty grants greater power for us to exercise our will as we evolve and prove we can handle it. To say we have no will or ability to make decisions is to make life meaningless. However that being said the choices often given and our relative abilitites to act upon our decisions, is not without constraints and may be set up for us by divine agency. Those who learn to harness their spirit and discipline their minds are often capable of feats outside the realm of what is consider normal for humanity. One has only to spend time with a true yogi or martial arts master to see this is so. Imagine if one has this and is likewise guided by the Spirit of God as perhaps was Jesus and miracles may not be so hard to imagine. Thoughts do manifest yet for most of us our thoughts are too weak and unfocused for us to notice any result. As mankind progresses spiritually I think the ability to act upon and focus our thoughts will be greater. As Spiderman always said, with great power comes great responsibility; I think it is part of the plan that we prove ourselves before our indivdual wills are expanded.
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