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Nick……..naturally you don't think God Controls everything thats the way you and WJ think, you think it all up to you and your so-called free wills, like i said before good luck your going to need it.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 28 2008,18:26) Quote (chosenone @ June 28 2008,18:12) Hi WJ, may I comment? Eph.1:11… God is operating ALL according to the councel of HIS will. Can our so-called “free will” overcome the will of God? Blessings.
CONo, but you assume that it is God's will that men be puppets and not have a will.
If the scripture you quote means what you imply then why isnt every man following him? It is his will that all come to him, right?
If God is sovereign and he has all power then why do men still commit horrible crimes like murder and rape, if it is not his sovereign will for them to do so?
Pure foolishness. God allows men to choose, which means they have a will.
So Jesus words mean nothing when he says…
And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Mk 8:34-38
So how will you sugar coat that one? Yeshua says “whosoever denys himself and takes up his cross and follows him”.
That is an act of the will. The words are the words of God to draw men for sure, but the act to folow that drawing is up to the one who hears it. “Whosoever will”.
WJ….then whats does this mean” Be you Holy for I am Holy, Be you Perfect for I am perfect. Tell us how our so-called free wills can attain to that by it (FREE) choices.TO all……..Can anyone show where a person truly chooses something without any influences of any Kind and if He does choose something by any influence it that truly a free Choice or an influenced Choice. Science as well a philologist have proved that true free will does not exist, every thing a person does is caused by a previously installed intelligence. So therefore is the result of cause and the effect is what is done.
But Proud Men want to think by their own will and free choices they create their own salvation, pure foolishness. And is against the truth of God. “For we are created unto good works”, not free willed unto them, as false teachers would have you believe.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2008,05:27) TO all……..Can anyone show where a person truly chooses something without any influences of any Kind and if He does choose something by any influence it that truly a free Choice or an influenced Choice. Science as well a philologist have proved that true free will does not exist, every thing a person does is caused by a previously installed intelligence. So therefore is the result of cause and the effect is what is done. But Proud Men want to think by their own will and free choices they create their own salvation, pure foolishness. And is against the truth of God. “For we are created unto good works”, not free willed unto them, as false teachers would have you believe.
Research the examples of..hymanaeus, Phelitus, and Alexander…and you will seeHi,
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
WE SHOULD WALK..not we are dragged.
Even Jesus had his own will the day before he died.NIck ….”No man CAN COME UNTO ME UNLESS TH FATHER (DRAG) HIM”> can you please explain what that MEANS?
AND if we are His true (WORKMANSHIP) then we (WILL) walk in His ways.
AND if we are truly (CREATED) unto good work the we (WILL) do good works.Jesus had His own will, but that will was against, Gods Will, So He put it to death. His will no longer controlled anything only God will Did.
Nick your making God appear as weak and ineffectual in what he does by saying (Should) as if it all up to us. And if that were true then who needs God in the first place.
Hi GB,
Coming to God is by grace.
Anything done in God is by grace.
But we need humilty to gain more grace
It is possible to resist grace and not follow Jesus carrying the cross.2 Timothy 2:1
Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?James 4:6
But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.Good going my brother Gene, I know God has given you more understanding on this myth of 'free will' than anybody here.
Amen to all those good posts
AdamQuote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2008,11:50) Nick…….got one for you Please give us the deffinition of the word grace. gene
GBThats easy.
Grace is the Divine “Influence” upon the heart and and its reflection in the life.
Not the “Divine Controll”.
Influence and control are two different words.
If we are free in Christ, which we are, then I can choose to follow the influence of God in my life or the influence of the flesh.
This is why Paul said he died daily, he by the act of his will put off the Old man and put on the new.
We have been made free from the law of sin and death and therefore have the ability to choose to follow him or not.
Freedom in Christ is not a licence to sin. You can resist the temptation to sin or you can yield to it. If you have no “Choice” as you and GM promote then it is not temptation, neither is it influence, but controll. But if we yield to the Holy Spirit and “Let” him have controll in our lives then we overcome the world and the flesh and the devil.
Sin shall not have dominion over us for we have the freedom in Christ to resist its evil influence and submit to the Spirit.
That is the freedom that we have as believers in Yeshua, and that is the freedom to choose, free will.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2008,08:03) NIck ….”No man CAN COME UNTO ME UNLESS TH FATHER (DRAG) HIM”> can you please explain what that MEANS? AND if we are His true (WORKMANSHIP) then we (WILL) walk in His ways.
AND if we are truly (CREATED) unto good work the we (WILL) do good works.Jesus had His own will, but that will was against, Gods Will, So He put it to death. His will no longer controlled anything only God will Did.
Nick your making God appear as weak and ineffectual in what he does by saying (Should) as if it all up to us. And if that were true then who needs God in the first place.
GB…stop misquoting that scripture…its “draws”Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 29 2008,15:00) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2008,11:50) Nick…….got one for you Please give us the deffinition of the word grace. gene
GBThats easy.
Grace is the Divine “Influence” upon the heart and and its reflection in the life.
Not the “Divine Controll”.
Influence and control are two different words.
If we are free in Christ, which we are, then I can choose to follow the influence of God in my life or the influence of the flesh.
This is why Paul said he died daily, he by the act of his will put off the Old man and put on the new.
We have been made free from the law of sin and death and therefore have the ability to choose to follow him or not.
Freedom in Christ is not a licence to sin. You can resist the temptation to sin or you can yield to it. If you have no “Choice” as you and GM promote then it is not temptation, neither is it influence, but controll. But if we yield to the Holy Spirit and “Let” him have controll in our lives then we overcome the world and the flesh and the devil.
Sin shall not have dominion over us for we have the freedom in Christ to resist its evil influence and submit to the Spirit.
That is the freedom that we have as believers in Yeshua, and that is the freedom to choose, free will.
AMEN!!!Quote (dirtyknections @ June 29 2008,15:03) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2008,08:03) NIck ….”No man CAN COME UNTO ME UNLESS TH FATHER (DRAG) HIM”> can you please explain what that MEANS? AND if we are His true (WORKMANSHIP) then we (WILL) walk in His ways.
AND if we are truly (CREATED) unto good work the we (WILL) do good works.Jesus had His own will, but that will was against, Gods Will, So He put it to death. His will no longer controlled anything only God will Did.
Nick your making God appear as weak and ineffectual in what he does by saying (Should) as if it all up to us. And if that were true then who needs God in the first place.
GB…stop misquoting that scripture…its “draws”
HOnestly brother…you are only inserting 'drag” to add credibility to your theory on choiceTo All….Man has no free will He never did the past imputs into his mind drive Him they control Him they captivate Him, that's all the Carnal mind is, It becomes a enemy of God is not subject to the laws of God Neither indeed can be. and again it is not within a man to direct his paths, and again I look for One righteous man, no not one, wherefore the Lord took it upon His own arm to bring salvation, again unless the lord build the house the were builder toil in vain, again I am the potter you are the clay, again who can resist his
Will, He can make one vessel to honor and one to dishonor, again the lord gives His Glory to no Man, again I will be unto you a God and you shall be unto me a son. again the rightious man shall live by faith, and he gives to every man a measure of faith, and without faith it is impossible to please God, and again God hand is not short that he cannot save, and again who can the thing formed say unto him that formed it why have you made me thus. and again my word shall not go out and come unto void where unto I send it. and again the Lord bless you and Keep you, and again non can deliver from my hand says the lord.Question………why does puny man think He controls His destiny then, with his own Will or so-called (FREE Will)? . When he is actually held captive by that very Will in Him which shows it is in no way FREE, by any means>
peace to all who love and respect the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD.
Notice the ten commandments, are they the ten if you decide to's or Should do's, or are they the ten you shall do's. to hear some on this issue you would think God is begging us if we would please Keep them. A father doesn't beg his children he commands them to obey him, Just as God did when He gave the ten commandments.They have replaced the God of all Creation with themselves though there Own so-called Free Wills.
This is the one of the biggest LIES, if not the biggest told in So Called “Christianity”. It destroys the absolute SOVEREIGNTY of the ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD>
This will be the first thing Jesus will deal with when He comes when so many will come to him and say Lord in Your name we did all these great works, It was their will their so-called free wills that they did these things for Jesus with, but what was the answer , Depart from YOU WORKERS of iniquity. O they were worker alright from their own So -called free will But sadly they missed the mark completely.
IMO………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2008,15:08) To All….Man has no free will He never did the past imputs into his mind drive Him they control Him they captivate Him, that's all the Carnal mind is, It becomes a enemy of God is not subject to the laws of God Neither indeed can be. and again it is not within a man to direct his paths, and again I look for One righteous man, no not one, wherefore the Lord took it upon His own arm to bring salvation, again unless the lord build the house the were builder toil in vain, again I am the potter you are the clay, again who can resist his
Will, He can make one vessel to honor and one to dishonor, again the lord gives His Glory to no Man, again I will be unto you a God and you shall be unto me a son. again the rightious man shall live by faith, and he gives to every man a measure of faith, and without faith it is impossible to please God, and again God hand is not short that he cannot save, and again who can the thing formed say unto him that formed it why have you made me thus. and again my word shall not go out and come unto void where unto I send it. and again the Lord bless you and Keep you, and again non can deliver from my hand says the lord.Question………why does puny man think He controls His destiny then, with his own Will or so-called (FREE Will)? . When he is actually held captive by that very Will in Him which shows it is in no way FREE, by any means>
peace to all who love and respect the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD.
Notice the ten commandments, are they the ten if you decide to's or Should do's, or are they the ten you shall do's. to hear some on this issue you would think God is begging us if we would please Keep them. A father doesn't beg his children he commands them to obey him, Just as God did when He gave the ten commandments.They have replaced the God of all Creation with themselves though there Own so-called Free Wills.
This is the one of the biggest LIES, if not the biggest told in So Called “Christianity”. It destroys the absolute SOVEREIGNTY of the ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD>
This will be the first thing Jesus will deal with when He comes when so many will come to him and say Lord in Your name we did all these great works, It was their will their so-called free wills that they did these things for Jesus with, but what was the answer , Depart from YOU WORKERS of iniquity. O they were worker alright from their own So -called free will But sadly they missed the mark completely.
IMO………..gene
Again..GB…these are your theories…explain this brother…why when I read the bible the spirit tells me something TOTALLY different from what it is telling you about this topic…You will reap my brother…for attributing to GOD the damnable evils of this world..I pray mercy for you
And for the record…the reason Jesus will say, “get away from you workers of lawlessness”…is because their heart condition was bad and they were not truly for Jesus…Notice this scripture.. this is what is promised for those who are FOR Jesus…
Mark 9:37-41..37″Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me.”
Whoever Is Not Against Us Is for Us
38″Teacher,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”39″Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.
So I fret not…I know my sheperds voice..and I go where he is
Hey come on brother DK, don't judge a brother without explaining him where he is wrong. One thing I see here no one who is believing this so called 'free will' never proved from the Bible where it is written exactly. For Gene, me or any one who do not believe this myth we don't need to prove anything because we don't have any trouble in that as we don't practice which is unbiblical. Even then we have given lot of proof from Bible to disprove this another dogma.
Think over
AdamDK…….you have not produced any thing that shows where I posted was in error so why don't you Just conceder it and think about it. What i have seen that this Hits the heart of all false Christianity, and i know it's not popular, but non the less I believe it to be true. If you get time Read 2Thes2 and when you see the man of sin being desplayed as God, Just put Jesus' name there and follow it through to when He returns and Abolishes the (LIE) Ask yourself whats that Lie is, It the Jesus who is now sitting beside the majesty on High and is being shown Himself as a God, (the trinity) a LIE that He will Abolish at His return, But the reason i am telling you this is so you can see how man wants to create more Gods and even with the teaching of So-Called Free Will is just a form of creating another God and that God is the person Himself because He thinks His Will is what is controlling his destiny, there are millions of (I) god Christians today.
check it out for yourself…………..geneQuote (chosenone @ June 28 2008,19:00) Hi WJ.
The scriptures you quoted Mk.8:34-38, were for the Jews. (Matt.15:24) “I (Jesus) was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel”. In this era they were under the “old covenant” and the “Law”. To lose your “soul”, was to loose your life (die). They, of course, thought that they used their “free will” to disobey God. See Ro.11:7-11. 7 What then? What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it. Now the rest were calloused,8 even as it is written, God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day. And David is saying, Let their table become a trap and a mesh, And a snare and a repayment to them:
10 Darkened be their eyes, not to be observing, And their backs bow together continually.
11 I am saying, then, Do they not trip that they should be falling? May it not be coming to that! But in their offense is salvation to the nations, to provoke them to jealousy.Notice in these verses, it is God that controls them to to do HIS will, while they think they were useing 'their will'. Gods ways are not our ways, He is contolling ALL, to complete His objective to be “All in all”. (1Cor.15:28)
Blessings.
COSo God is controlling the hungry little children in the world?
So God is controlling that rapist that raped and mutilated the little girl?
If God is controlling all as you say, then why isn’t every man saved and filled with the Holy Spirit.
Why do men still commit the evils in the world?
I agree that God is sovereign and all powerful, but he has not created a bunch of puppets on a string. Man has a will to obey God or not to.
Your concept cuts to the very core of repentance and giving our lives for Yeshua and the Gospel.
Why is there a judgment for every idle word that a man shall speak if man cannot choose to follow Christ or not?
Why would some receive a reward because they did right with their talents and the others didn’t?
You say that Yeshua was called to the house of Israel, then I suppose the Gospel that he preached is not for us then? So should we go through the NT scriptures and pick and choose which words Yeshua spoke is for us or for the Jews?
So we should not go into the entire world and preach the Gospel to every creature, and heal the sick and bind up the broken hearted and set the captive free?
The Gospel Yeshua preached was for all men. Yeshua never said to the disciples “these words are for the Jews only”.
“BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED; I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE **GENTILES**. “HE WILL NOT QUARREL, NOR CRY OUT; NOR WILL ANYONE HEAR HIS VOICE IN THE STREETS. “A BATTERED REED HE WILL NOT BREAK OFF, AND A SMOLDERING WICK HE WILL NOT PUT OUT, UNTIL HE LEADS JUSTICE TO VICTORY. “AND IN HIS NAME THE GENTILES WILL HOPE.” . Matt 12:18-21
And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. Matt 8:5-7
So I suppose Yeshua didn’t obey the Father by healing the Centurion’s servant.
Notice Yeshua words concerning him…
When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. Matt 8:10
The reason God hardened their heart and shut their eyes in your scripture quote is because they resisted his word as is always the case.
This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.Notice, their hearts became calloused and they closed their eyes, (they closed their eyes), they turned their faces from the truth. Yet, Yeshua says that if they turn then he would heal them.
Yes Yeshua was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, for it was God’s purpose to reach the Jew first and then the gentile. Your claim that the words Yeshua spoke were not for all men is false and you have no scripture that says his words were for only the Jews and would not be for the whole world.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe **all things** whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt 28:19, 20
WJ
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