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Gene,
Ezekiel 36:27Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Cause and effect does not oppose free choice. God is the cause of those that receive the Spirit living by it as you live by the Spirit by faith. God works through those that have true faith and thee result of living by faith to those that have the Spirit is that they “ walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. ”
There is nothing there that opposes free choice.
T8…..You couldn’t be more wrong, even if you tried to imo. On the one hand you say God is Soverign, and on the other you say we are soverign, you have no scripture that backs that up. T8 i see you did not read my post to you to study the scriptures i ask you to read did you? Rom 9:6-23 please do this and tell us what that means to you.
It was you who said God or us were sovereign Gene. So show yourself the scripture you ask me for. I am simply replying to your comment below.
Still waiting for T8 TO RESPOND TO THE SCRIPTURES I ASK HIM TO READ AND THIS TIME STUDY THEM. Iwould good for all involved in this descusion to really read the and see how they fit in with free will teachings. In the final end it all boils down to who is the truly SOVERIGN ONE, MAN OR GOD.IMO
So let’s agree that God is sovereign even though it may not actually say that in as much words. If you disagree, then leave that for another topic.
So the question remains is, can a sovereign give sovereignty to another? Well of course they can. If they could not do such a thing, then they do not have all sovereignty or authority. However we are not talking about one sovereign giving all sovereign to another, rather that God created beings that have a will to choose him or not. He made that choice fair by giving his Spirit to guide us and to convict us of all righteousness and judgement. Further, there is a being who represents the other side who is tempting us. Between the two we have a choice. God or not God. Both are compelling and when the enemy comes in like a flood, God pours out his Spirit to a greater measure to counter the enemy so we are not overcome and lose our ability to choose God.
Now ask yourself. Is love purely a mechanical reaction or is it a choice that we are able to choose freely. If not the latter, then there is no such thing as true love. To love somebody requires the option to choose to not love the person. If there is no choice, then it is a programmed response.
Further, we are told to choose this say who we will serve. We are told to choose the gift of salvation. We are told to choose between God and the world. I could go on an on with scriptures here as there are plenty. So there you have it. The sovereign has told us to choose. Choice means that we can choose otherwise. And we are judged by our choices and held accountable for them. So wake up Gene.
Why not try it out for yourself. Try choosing to stop debating your point that was well lost even on the first page of this topic. Choose to move on and do something of value with your time, rather than try and continue to win a debate you lost years ago. You can CHOOSE to believe you have free will and by choosing it, you will prove it is real.
But hey we all know your nature by now. We await your next post with bated breath. And we even know what your posts will say. The same stuff we have already refuted. But it is YOUR CHOICE. lol. That is the funniest part. You are CHOOSING FREELY to continue to believe that you cannot choose freely. At least there is a funny side to this topic. But you should really choose to overcome your own stubbornness. Maybe that is why you do not believe in free will. Because you do not want to be accountable for your choices perhaps.
T8……so you say, you have all kind of scriptures right, so produce them, instead of just bad mouthing me and accusing me of being stubborn, lets start by where Israel was told , to chose, this day who you will serve.
Lets start first and see who chose who first,
Dut 10:15…….Only the LORD had delight in thy fathers to love them, and “HE” CHOSE , their seed after them, even you “ABOVE “ALL” PEOPLE, AS IT IS THIS DAY. Read also the rest down to 21 and show us was God acting as SUPREME OR NOT WAS HE ASKING OR COMMANDING THEM TO.
SO SCRIPTURE SHOWS IT WAS GOD, who chose them, not them chosing God, as you assume BY SOME KIND OF “SO-CALLED FREEWILL ACTION WAS GOD PLEADING WITH THEM TO CHOSE HIM? OR WERE THEY BEING TOLD WHAT TO DO AND WHO GOD WAS AND WHO GOD CHOSE AND WHAT GOD COMMANDS.
Eze 20:37… And I will “CAUSE” YOU TO pass under the rod, and I WILL BRING YOU INTO THE BOND OF THE COVENANT.
WHO WILL “CAUSE”, WHO WILL “BRING” is it our so-called FREEWILL OR GOD ?
T8…..in the new testement show us were God makes our salvation of our own freewill choices, produce you scriptures instead of just mouthing off for a change. Show us where we chose God by our own so-called will that were free, i want to see that and maybe i can have pride in myself as you do, instead of humility by understanding my salvation had nothing to do with me or my so-called freewill choices but by God alone and his election to save me despite of myself. T8, i have produced hundreds of scripture that pove my point, youhave produced one and even that one does notaddress the will itself.
Face it T8 YOU HAVEN’T A CLUE WHAT YOU ARE saying and trying to belittle me, instead of showing scriptures only proves the point. Your using you carnel reasonings that we have liberty to chose something as proof that our will it self is free, and can not be effected or CAUSED BY GOD TO RESPOND A CERTAIN WAY, nothing could be further from the truth.IMO
PEACE AND LOVE TO YOU AND YOURS ……………gene
Grasshopper……….It’s not what I think it is what scriptures show, go and read all the scriptures i have ask brother and sisters to read that show the truth, or produce a single scripture that says we all have will that are themselves free, there is none.
You ask why then dosen’t God just cause all to seek him, what makes you think he woun’t eventually? How do you know he will not have mercy on “ALL” in the end. What does this scripture mean to you?
Eze 36:27…”And I (God) will put my spirit within you, and “CAUSE” you to walk in my statues, and you shall keep my judgements and do them”.
That scripture clearly shows is a “CAUSE” AND “EFFECT” action performed by God and him alone to a person. This is only one of hundreds of scripture that we do not chose God he chooses us. If you want we can go through scripture after scripture that backs this up. Go back and read all the scriptures i have posted on this, and tell me which ones you disagree with.
Now give me your answer to that scripture, why would God “CAUSE” anything like that to happen if it’s “ALL” ABOUT ARE OWN “SO-CALLED” FREEWILL, CHOICES?
peace and love to you and yours………..gene
Kerwin……God give us our FAITH also, it is not a result of any freewill choice.
Rom 12:3…..For I say, through the grace “GIVEN” unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, according as “God has dealt” to every man the “MEASURE OF FAITH”.
The very FAITH needed by us, is “CAUSED” by God himself, to be in us. We get no credit by any kind of “freewill” choices comming from ourselves. ” for God works in us both to “WILL” AND do of his good pleasure”
When God will comes into us by his spirit and our will dies, then will kis kingdom abide in us, and we will then be his childern and be able to walk in all his ways forever, then will be brought about the saying “GOD IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL” AND “thy kingdom come , thy “WILL” be done on earth as it is in heaven”. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………gene
Gene,
Then why preach and teach the truth? Why then should we tell people they need to repent of their sins and proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? If God will draw all to Him, and nothing is our choice because we have no will of our own, then preaching and ministering is of no use. Your conclusions are that all will eventually be saved. If so, why do you personally post in this forum? Why try and make people see what you deem to be life saving knowledge? But isn’t that a contradiction, given that you claim God is the only one that can LET us see? — Because he MAKES us see? But if it’s all on God’s time table and will eventually happen when God wants it to happen, regardless of what WE want, why then do you try so hard to convince us, Gene?
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GrasshopperCamillia,
Thank you accept is was supposed to say “at each and every turn” instead of “in each and every turn “. My error
Means the same thing kind of, Kerwin 🙂
Kerwin and Camillia…..Do me a favor, go back and reread CAREFULLY Eze 36:27, please notice what God said that, “he” would “CAUSE” us to walk in his statues, and keep his judgements. Now where does our so-called “free” will choices, CAUSED by us fit in ,if it is God “CAUSING” IT ALL TO HAPPEN?,
Again lets be clear i am not saying we do not have liberty to express our “influenced” and “captivated” WILL’S, but those wills will never chose Gods way unless he “CAUSES” IT TO HAPPEN.THEY WILL “only” chose there own way so, We are saved inspite of ourselves, it is the Will of God that CAUSES him to CAUSE US TO SEEK HIM, BY CAUSING US TO DO, HIS WILL.
Hi Gene.
I think I agree with that, but only from the moment that God begins to work in our lives.
MAN wants a WILL competely seperate of Gods, BECAUSE he wants to be SOVERIGN HIMSELF, IN DETERMINING HIS OWN FUTURE, A GOD UNTO HIMSELF. That is the nature and driving force in the mind of carnal men, that was the mindset of Adam and Eve and ever one sense.
So, we need to do God’s will.
Gene,
God give us our FAITH also, it is not a result of any freewill choice.
Rom 12:3…..For I say, through the grace “GIVEN” unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, according as “God has dealt” to every man the “MEASURE OF FAITH”.
The Koine Greek does not have the word “the” and therefore some translators translate it “a measure”. I am not sure it makes a difference as the words “the measure of faith” as written in the AV of the KJV make it seem there is only one measure of faith.
Romans 12:1-4Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith
God is instructing us to choose to live up to that measure of faith that he has dealt us. From that every man may be a believe or non believer. So non believers are not living up to their ability.
Kerwin……first of all, it is not God instructing us there, it was the apostle PAUL, SECONDLY Paul is talking to already converted christians, who have the SPIRIT of the living God “WORKING” “in” them, so they are capable of achieving those things, BY THE EFFECTUAL WORKING OF THAT SPIRIT, it has nothing to do with a will that is “free”, REMEMBER WHAT IT SAYS, “for God WORKS IN YOU, “BOTH” to “WILL” and “DO” of HIS good pleasure”.
You are correct the definite article “the”, should not be there, it should be rendered “A” measure of FAITH. Because FAITH is measureable, some have none, some little, and some are full of FAITH. Faith is averable it can be increased or decreased.
Therefore it says “the wise took extra oil in their flasks” , faith is the fuel that lights the way, the wise have enough of it, the foolish have little, AND THEIR LAMPS are going out., and they must go and buy MORE for themselves. “For it is impossible to please God without FAITH”, we are told. Jesus prayed for PETER’S FAITH NOT TO FAIL. He prayed to God the Father to “CAUSE” HIS FAITH NOT FAIL. WE need to pray our faith will be increased also. IMO
peace and lov= to you and yours………………gene
Grasshopper…….have you ever thought that is why PAUL SAID , For after that in the wisdom of GOD the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the “FOOLISHNESS” OF “PREACHING”, to save them that believe”.
Now who gives that FAITH, is it not God himself? Or do you believe it comes by some kind of “freewill” we all have in us. All people are held captive by their thinking nothing free about it, and unless God set you free from that captivity and reaveals the truth in you mind, which CAUSE you to come to Jesus, you could never do it on your own in a million years. IMO.
peace and love to you and yours…………..gene
Gene, you wrote:
Grasshopper…….have you ever thought that is why PAUL SAID , For after that in the wisdom of GOD the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the “FOOLISHNESS” OF “PREACHING”, to save them that believe”.
You seem to be taking that portion of the scripture out of it’s full context in order to show how preaching “itself” is foolishness/folly. That is not the message Paul was trying to convey. If one reads that statement in it’s full context, one should understand what was really being said.
1Corinthians 1:18-31 (ESV)
18For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written,“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”20Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards,not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
What Paul was saying was not that preaching itself was foolishness/folly, but rather that to the world our preaching is foolishness/folly because the world holds on to it’s own wisdom…which is not the wisdom of God. What we preach is foolishness in the eyes of the world. Hence the verse, “25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.”
So the question remains, if your conclusions are correct in that we have no choice but to do God’s will and that all will eventually be drawn to God, what use is there to preach? According to your conclusions, anyone who loves God and obeys is doing so because God is making us love Him and making us obey. If this is so, why then preach? This verse even shows how preaching is used to bring people to God, thus saving them.: “21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach TO SAVE those who believe.”
The above verse actually shows how important it is to preach the Gospel – because preaching leads to people being saved. If preaching is so important, doesn’t that show that God gives us the freedom to listen to him or not? He gives us the freedom to accept the Gospel or not. If He will make us do His will regardless of what we want, as you claim, then bringing people to God through preaching is an impossibilty, thus making it a waste of time; which would clearly contradict what scripture says about the importance of the act of preaching. Scripture clearly shows the correlation between preaching the Gospel and lives being saved because of it.
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GrasshopperGene,
first of all, it is not God instructing us there, it was the apostle PAUL,
2 Timothy 3:16-17Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Peter 1:21Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Do you doubt Paul’s words are the words of God?
I instead assume you wrote without considering beyond the surface of your words.
Gene,
Paul is talking to already converted christians, who have the SPIRIT of the living God “WORKING” “in” them, so they are capable of achieving those things, BY THE EFFECTUAL WORKING OF THAT SPIRIT, it has nothing to do with a will that is “free”, REMEMBER WHAT IT SAYS, “for God WORKS IN YOU, “BOTH” to “WILL” and “DO” of HIS good pleasure”.
Paul may have been limiting the group of those who have been given the measure of faith to just those that received the Spirit even though he said “all men” were given the measure of faith. I do not believe that is so because Scripture calls those that have not yet received the Spirit believers.
The Spirit is of God and not of man. Its actions are according to God’s will and not according to the beast nature of the man who receives it. It is opposed to the beast nature of the man who receives it. The Spirit teaches and if it is the free choice of the man whom has received it to learn from it then he learns to walk according to its ways. If instead he freely chooses to walk accord to his bestial nature then he does not learn though the Spirit still strives to teach him. That is why believers are instructed to walk by the Spirit and not by the flesh.
Gene,
You are correct the definite article “the”, should not be there, it should be rendered “A” measure of FAITH. Because FAITH is measureable, some have none, some little, and some are full of FAITH. Faith is averable it can be increased or decreased.
Therefore it says “the wise took extra oil in their flasks” , faith is the fuel that lights the way, the wise have enough of it, the foolish have little, AND THEIR LAMPS are going out., and they must go and buy MORE for themselves. “For it is impossible to please God without FAITH”, we are told. Jesus prayed for PETER’S FAITH NOT TO FAIL. He prayed to God the Father to “CAUSE” HIS FAITH NOT FAIL. WE need to pray our faith will be increased also. IMO
A good argument.
Amen Grasshopper.
And, ‘there is joy in heaven over one sinner that repents’ (Luke 15:7), and ‘he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.’ (James 5:20).Grasshopper, Kerwin, Carmillia,…..lets look more closely at 1 Cor 1:26-31, in verse 27 and 28, three time it say God has chosen, us, not one mention of us chosing him, not one mention of a so-called freewill choice from us, but just the oppisit,GOD HIMSELF CHOSE US, “why”, now look at verses 29-31…”that “NO” FLESH SHOULD GLORY IN HIS PRESENCE, 3O..But of him, (God) are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom,and righteousness, and santification, and redemption, 31..That as it is written , he that glories let him glory in the LORD. (not in himself, by his own so-freewill choices).
There is not one mention of any one “so-called “freewill” chosing God, in any of those scriptures in fact just the oppisite, it is God who is doing the chosing not us. We should rejoice in knowing this, that GOD so loved us he chose us from the very foundations of the world to be saved through his MERCY AND GRACE AND LOVING KINDNESS, JUST AS IT SAYS “FOR WHOM HE FORKNEW HE ALSO PREDESTINED” . SO where is boasting it has been-completely exculed by the foreknowledge and election of God.
Brothers and sister , rejoice, for we have been chosen by God the Father for salvation through our lord and brother JESUS who is the Christ of God. Our salvation is not based on our CAPTIVATED wills but the WILL OF GOD THE FATHER, WHO CHOSE US FROM THE BEGINNING FOR SALVATION, YES REJOICE BROTHERS AND SISTERS, AND ABOVE “ALL” THINGS LET US BE THANKFULL. WE HAVE BEEN GREATLY “BLESSED”, IMO
peace and love to you all and yours…………..gene
Gene,
You still did not answer the question, which is: WHY THEN should we spread the Gospel if God will draw/drag people to Him in spite of their no good hearts?
Can you come to a good conclusion about that, Gene?
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GrasshopperGrasshopper……..sure can, because it is the comand of Jesus our Lord to preach the gospel INTO ALL THE WORLD, but even Jesus could not cause anyone to come to him, in fact it was him that said “NO” ONE “COULD” COME UNTO HIM UNLESS THE FATHER DRAW (Greek, drag) HIM.
WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO TRY TO RULE GOD OUT OF OUR SALVATION PROCESS, WOULD BE THE MORE IMPORTANT QUESTION HERE, if you ask me.
You are trying to base your salvation on your own freewill choices, which in fact leaves God the Father completely out. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……….gene
Gene,
Have you ever heard the saying, “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink”?
Yes, scripture says God draws us…and he does, but like the horse, we choose to drink or to not drink the life giving water God has drawn/lead us to.
THAT is why Jesus commands His disciples to go out and spread the Gospel. Preaching the Gospel is the offering of life (water) to those who will listen and believe, and in turn, obey.
We are first dragged into awareness and acceptance and belief of/in God and Christ, BUT, being drawn/dragged to God does not implicitly mean that we will also continue to obey; One thing does not necessarily mean the other.
Being drawn is not the end of the story, but rather it’s the beginning of the story – the beginning of our journey and walk in/with Christ. God gave us a hand up out of darkness by drawing/dragging us, but now it’s all about what we do with that hand up.
Do you understand, rubber band?
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Grasshopper
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