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Gene,
Could Jesus have used His free will when He went to the cross?
“Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.”
Kaia……..Jesus’ will was not to die or give up his life, but “God was working in him both to “will” and do of “HIS good pleasure”. Just as he does in all his childern. Therefore two wills were there JESUS’ AND God the Fathers. The love of GOD WHICH ABIDED IN HIM “CAUSED” HIM TO DO THE FATHERS WILL, NOT HIS WILL.
Scripture also says he , (Jesus ) “learned” obedience by the thing he suffered. We as Jesus must learn to deny our “influenced” wills AND come to be obedient GOD’S will. God is working in all his childern to “cause” them to do “HIS” WILL.
He is the “CAUSE” our lives show the effects. No freewill about it, all is cauuse and effect. GOD the FATHER gets all the credit for our salvation the so-called ” will that most think is free gets none, a will that is “free” does not exist because all wills are “influienced” and driven by the situations they are in.Peter’s will was not to deny Jesus, saying all might deny Jesus, but he would not forsake him, that was his will talking at that moment, but when the time came for him to carry it out, his will changed because of fear, and he began to curse and deny any relationship with Jesus. See his will changed by the circumstances that then existed, nothing free about it, fear “caused” him to change his will, inorder to save his own life, nothing free about.
THE WORD FREEWILL IS AN OXYMORON, BECAUSE NO SUCH THING EXISTS. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
Grasshopper………NO I DO NOT THINK GOD HAS A WILL THAT IS FREE, what does scripture say about GODS WILL, ” for God does all things after the “COUNCIL” OF HIS WILL. Now tell me what does council mean to you? Council is what influences and drives Gods will, same with us. We are counciled by what is influencing us the most and that forms our wills. Apsoluity nothing “free” about it. Remember we are not talking about just a will , but about it being “FREE”. That means nothing can be influencing it at all. I am also not talking about the liberty God gives us to excercise our “influenced or captivated wills.
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Kerwin……..WHAT EDJ is not taking into consideration is the man was already influenced to make that volintary move by pryer causes. None of that was a result of a WILL THAT WAS FREE AT ALL. EDJ as many do are getting God allowing us the liberty to excercise our captivated and influnced will as the wills themselves being free, nothing could be further from the truth.
peace and love to you and yours. ………………..gene
Gene
Grasshopper………NO I DO NOT THINK GOD HAS A WILL THAT IS FREE, what does scripture say about GODS WILL, ” for God does all things after the “COUNCIL” OF HIS WILL.
So you are saying that we have no free will because God’s Will is Sovereign and we cannot do anything else but what God wants, BECAUSE His Will is Sovereign.
With the above quote of yours, you make it seem that even God, Himself, is subject to His OWN Sovereignty. Does that seem accurate to you???Have you ever heard the saying “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink?
A perfect example of this exists here…on this site.
You have suggested to me a few times to go read something on some other site which fully explains your views on the subject. One could say that the suggesting of it provided the influence to do so. Well, I haven’t gone to that site, Gene. Can you guess why not? Well, its PROBABLY because I don’t want to. Weird, huh? You see, we have the freedom to act upon that influence or not. You, yourself, exhibit that freedom when you chose to reply to me and not at all address the SERIOUS accusations you made that I pointed out to you. I guess now you could say that the reason you chose to not address it is because your “captivated will” was “influenced” by your instinct for self preservation. Did I hit the nail on the head?
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GrasshopperGene,
..WHAT EDJ is not taking into consideration is the man was already influenced to make that volintary move by pryer causes. None of that was a result of a WILL THAT WAS FREE AT ALL. EDJ as many do are getting God allowing us the liberty to excercise our captivated and influnced will as the wills themselves being free, nothing could be further from the truth.
I am influenced to turn on the air conditioner by the fact the temperature is high. That influence does not mean I do not have free will.
Genetics also influences me but it is in the form of whether I am more subject to one temptation than another. Temptation itself is an influence but I can make the choice to resist it.
This is a debate among men that has not been resolved for ages. Each side believes they have a compelling case and the other disagrees. I doubt you have any new arguments. Which doctrine regards this controversy if any is supported by Scripture.
You are not making yourself clear on what your believe.
Try this site for some definitions.
http://www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/determinism.html
Gene,
P.S. So tell us then…what made Satan rebel? Did he not have the same set of influences that other angels, who did not rebel, have? What caused him to rebel, Gene?
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GWe as Jesus must learn to deny our “influenced” wills AND come to be obedient GOD’S will. God is working in all his childern to “cause” them to do “HIS” WILL.
But, by learning to deny our will (which, Gene, I agree with), we have to have a will to begin with.
He is the “CAUSE” our lives show the effects. No freewill about it, all is cauuse and effect. GOD the FATHER gets all the credit for our salvation the so-called ” will that most think is free gets none, a will that is “free” does not exist because all wills are “influienced” and driven by the situations they are in.
So, if I understand you correctly, we are saved through God’s will, and not through our own behaviour. Thus, all (so called) wills are influenced by the situations they are in. However, if that were so – two people are being bullied at school. One stands up for themself, and the other doesn’t. Isn’t it their wills that makes them different despite their (similar) situations? Gene, I think you have this wrong (imo). God says “Return to me, and I will return to you”. We need the will to do that.
Peter’s will was not to deny Jesus, saying all might deny Jesus, but he would not forsake him, that was his will talking at that moment,
Yes, so Peters WILL was not to deny Jesus – you just said that yourself 🙂
but when the time came for him to carry it out, his will changed because of fear, and he began to curse and deny any relationship with Jesus. See his will changed by the circumstances that then existed, nothing free about it, fear “caused” him to change his will, inorder to save his own life, nothing free about.
So, Peter’s will was influenced by situational fear. However, he could have changed that. When Peter walked on water, through FEAR he sank, however Jesus said “Ye of little faith, *why did you doubt*?” Jesus asked Peter why he doubted – Peter decided to doubt, therefore he needed the will to do that, when you think about it, Gene.
Gene,
You wrote:
He is the “CAUSE” our lives show the effects. No freewill about it, all is cauuse and effect. GOD the FATHER gets all the credit for our salvation the so-called ” will that most think is free gets none, a will that is “free” does not exist because all wills are “influienced” and driven by the situations they are in.
Yes, OF COURSE God gets all the credit for our salvation..that’s because He is the One offering it to us. ONLY He can provide this! We CANNOT provide it for ourselves!
Here is an analogy:
If a person has a job, they have that job because their employer offered employment. That person wanted a job with that specific company, and so they sought out to get hired. They received a job because of the effort and striving they put forth in trying to obtain that job. Now, would it make sense for the employee that got hired to then take credit for the existance of that job? Can that person then claim that he provided that job for himself? Does not the employee have that job because that employer first offered that job? Can that hired employee turn around and deny the employers role? Of course not! But what CAN be said is that he got hired because of his own actions. He, himself, chose to seek out employment that was offered and now has a job because of that effort.
A person who strives towards employment is rewarded with a job – just as we who strive towards obeying God and Christ are also rewarded – with salvation.
God provides the salvation, but God gives us the freedom to reject it. If WE CHOOSE to obey, that doesn’t mean that we think that we are now the ones supplying and providing our own salvation. That’s a very strange conclusion you have put forth, brother. It’s simply a case of deciding to or deciding not to accept what God is offering us…period! We know WHO is providing the salvation…and that “WHO” is by no means mankind.
Well, I’m sure that animal control will be breaking down my door any second now because of that dead horse I’ve been beating for days…
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GrasshopperTo whomever is concerned;
Soft determinism allows for free will. I think that is the title of my understanding on this matter.
This passage sounds like it is based on determinism.
Acts 17:26-27New English Translation (NET Bible)
26 From one man he made every nation of the human race to inhabit the entire earth, determining their set times and the fixed limits of the places where they would live, 27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope around for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.
The reason I say that because it basically states God determines the set times the limits of the places would live. If he does not with a nation then he has to do it with the citizens of the nation. It speaks more of the individual when it states “so that they would search for God and perhaps grope around for him and find him”. It also uses the word “fixed” to describe limits and he is the one the fixed those limits.
I am not sure how this can be understood so as Paul’s words are not based on one or another type of Determinism. I do know only God can do these things and yet allow free will at the same time.
Grasshopper……..yes but what “caused” him to want that job, it was not a will that was free of any influences, his motives for “willing” to seek that job, was “caused” and the effect was him seeking it. So did he do it out of a will that was free or a (none influenced desire), no, it had only to do with what was influencing his mind which “caused” him to will it. Your example is not taking into account the influencing forces working in him, driving him to will what he did. A will does not go before an influience but after an influence, rather fear, hunger, lusts, love, hatred, or what ever these are driving the wills in all of us, if it is the spirit of God driving us we will seek to conform to his will. You need togo and read the site i posted and all this will beclearly explained to you, i have explained these things over andover here. And the reason i am here posting is because i am compelled by the spirit in me and that has nothing to a will that is free, i am being “CAUSED” to post here just as all here are also, including you.
Peace and love to you and yours. …………gene
Gene,
Yes, OF COURSE God gets all the credit for our salvation..that’s because He is the One offering it to us. ONLY He can provide this! We CANNOT provide it for ourselves!
Here is an analogy:
If a person has a job, they have that job because their employer offered employment. That person wanted a job with that specific company, and so they sought out to get hired. They received a job because of the effort and striving they put forth in trying to obtain that job. Now, would it make sense for the employee that got hired to then take credit for the existance of that job? Can that person then claim that he provided that job for himself? Does not the employee have that job because that employer first offered that job? Can that hired employee turn around and deny the employers role? Of course not! But what CAN be said is that he got hired because of his own actions. He, himself, chose to seek out employment that was offered and now has a job because of that effort.
A person who strives towards employment is rewarded with a job – just as we who strive towards obeying God and Christ are also rewarded – with salvation.
God provides the salvation, but God gives us the freedom to reject it. If WE CHOOSE to obey, that doesn’t mean that we think that we are now the ones supplying and providing our own salvation. That’s a very strange conclusion you have put forth, brother. It’s simply a case of deciding to or deciding not to accept what God is offering us…period! We know WHO is providing the salvation…and that “WHO” is by no means mankind.
Well, I’m sure that animal control will be breaking down my door any second now because of that dead horse I’ve been beating for days…
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GrasshopperHi Grasshopper,
Good post, but too bad it’s going to go in one ear and out the other.
Because Gene can’t get past his mind holding his will captive. He he he he___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
”Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – JEHOVAH GODKaia,
I am doing fine even though I am challenged by God. I hope you are as well.Hi Kerwin,
Remember to take “Turmeric” daily
___________
Your brother
in Christ,
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
”Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – JEHOVAH GODActs 17:26-27New English Translation (NET Bible)
26 From one man he made every nation of the human race to inhabit the entire earth, determining their set times and the fixed limits of the places where they would live, 27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope around for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.
I love that verse.
That we may look around for him, and find him, He is not far from each of us.
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