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Quote It was predestined to Happen. Among the pagan peoples of ancient times, including the Greeks and Romans, one’s fate, particularly the length of the individual’s life, was often considered to be determined beforehand for all individuals by the gods.
According to Jewish historian Josephus (first century C.E.), the Pharisees endeavored to harmonize the idea of fate with their belief in God and with the free moral agency granted to man. (The Jewish War, II, 162, 163 [viii, 14]; Jewish Antiquities, XVIII, 13, 14 ) The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge says: “Previous to Augustine [of the fourth and fifth centuries C.E.] there was no serious development in Christianity of a theory of predestination.” Before Augustine, earlier so-called “Church Fathers” such as Justin, Origen, and Irenaeus “know nothing of unconditional predestination; they teach free will.” (Hastings’ Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics, 1919, Vol. X, p. 231)
If each one’s moment and manner of death were already fixed at the time of birth or earlier, there would be no need to avoid dangerous situations or to care for one’s health, and safety precautions would not alter mortality rates.
Some questions:
Do you believe that a battlefield during war is as safe as one’s home far away from the war zone? Do you care for your health or take your children to the doctor? Why do smokers die three to four years younger, on an average, than nonsmokers? Why are there fewer fatal accidents when automobile passengers wear seat belts and when drivers obey traffic laws? Obviously, taking precautions is beneficial.Quote David …..the point is do you believe in the absolute sovereignty of God?
As far as I can tell, JW's are the only ones that speak of God's sovereignty on a regular basis. I guess my answer is yes.But no Bible will tell you that this means he's in control of everything that happens. In fact, the Bible says quite the opposite. Because of the very issue of sovereignty, because his very right to rule was challenged, He's allowed Satan to rule. Yes, the earth, the universe, everything is still his, but for the time being, he has allowed Satan to be “ruler of this world.” That doesn't mean God isn't wise enough to know how this is going to end.
Is everything that happens the will of God?
While I definitely hold that Jehovah is rightful universal sovereign, not everything that happens is his will:
2 Pet. 3:9:
“Jehovah . . . is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.”But not all respond to his patience. Clearly, it is not “the will of God” when some fail to repent.
Jer. 7:23-26: “This word I did express in command upon them [Israel], saying: ‘Obey my voice, and I will become your God, and you yourselves will become my people; and you must walk in all the way that I shall command you, in order that it may go well with you.’ But they did not listen . . . I kept sending to you all my servants the prophets, daily getting up early and sending them. But they did not listen to me, and they did not incline their ear, but they kept hardening their neck.”
Obviously, the badness taking place in Israel was not “the will of God.”
Mark 3:35: “Whoever does the will of God, this one is my brother and sister and mother.”
If whatever anyone did was “the will of God,” then everyone would have enjoyed the kind of relationship with Jesus that he there described. But he said to some: “You are from your father the Devil.”—John 8:44.
Deut. 31:20, 21: “I shall bring them [the nation of Israel] to the ground that I have sworn about to their forefathers, which flows with milk and honey, and they will certainly eat and be satisfied and grow fat and turn to other gods, and they will indeed serve them and treat me with disrespect and break my covenant. And it must occur that when many calamities and distresses will come upon them, this song [recounting how they acted because of failing to appreciate God’s favor] must also answer before them as a witness, . . . for I well know their inclination that they are developing today before I bring them into the land about which I have sworn.”
Note that God’s ability to discern the outcome of their course did not mean that he was responsible for it or that it was what he wanted for them, but on the basis of what they were doing he could foresee the outcome. Similarly, on the basis of what is observed, a weather forecaster may predict the weather with a great degree of accuracy, but he does not cause it or necessarily like it.
Isa. 11:1-3: “There must go forth a twig out of the stump of Jesse; and out of his roots a sprout will be fruitful. [Jesus was born in the line of Jesse.] And upon him the spirit of Jehovah must settle down, . . . and there will be enjoyment by him in the fear of Jehovah.”
Jehovah could confidently foretell this regarding his Son because He had observed his attitude and conduct in the heavens since the beginning of creation.
Quote your argument falls apart because Judas was predicted to betray Jesus way back in the old testament. It was predestined to Happen. True, in the account at John 6:64, on the occasion of some disciples stumbling over certain teachings of Jesus, we read that “from the beginning [“from the outset,” JB] Jesus knew who were the ones not believing and who was the one that would betray him.” While the word “beginning” (Gr., ar·khe′) is used at 2 Peter 3:4 to refer to the start of creation, it can also refer to other times. (Lu 1:2; Joh 15:27) For example, when the apostle Peter spoke of the holy spirit falling on Gentiles “just as it did also upon us in the beginning,” he obviously was not referring to the beginning of his discipleship or apostleship but to an important point in his ministry, the day of Pentecost, 33 C.E., “the beginning” of the outpouring of the holy spirit for a certain purpose. (Ac 11:15; 2:1-4) It is therefore interesting to note this comment on John 6:64 in Lange’s Commentary on the Holy Scriptures (p. 227): “Beginning . . . means not, metaphysically from the beginning of all things, . . . nor from the beginning of His [Jesus’] acquaintance with each one, . . . nor from the beginning of His collecting of the disciples around Him, or the beginning of His Messianic ministry, . . . but from the first secret germs of unbelief [that produced the stumbling of some disciples]. So also He knew His betrayer from the beginning.”—Translated and edited by P. Schaff, 1976; compare 1Jo 3:8, 11, 12.
From Hebrew Scripture prophecies Christ knew that he would be betrayed by a close associate. (Ps 41:9; 109:8; Joh 13:18, 19)
At the beginning of his apostleship Judas was faithful to God and to Jesus. Thus Christ must have meant that “from the beginning” of when Judas started to go bad, started to give in to imperfection and sinful inclinations, Jesus recognized it. (Joh 2:24, 25; Re 1:1; 2:23)
John 6:64: “From the beginning Jesus knew . . . who was the one that would betray him.”
Not from the beginning of creation, nor from the time of Judas’ birth, but “from the beginning” of his acting treacherously.
Compare Genesis 1:1, Luke 1:2, and 1 John 2:7, 13, in each of which texts “beginning” is used in a relative sense. Take note also of John 12:4-6.Ps. 41:9: “The man at peace with me, in whom I trusted, who was eating my bread, has magnified his heel against me.”
Notice that the prophecy does not specify which close associate of Jesus it would be. Jehovah knew that the Devil had used David’s counselor Ahithophel to betray him, and He had that recorded because it demonstrated how the Devil operated and what he would do in the future.
It was not God but “THE DEVIL . . . [who] put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray him [Jesus].” [John 13:2] Instead of resisting, Judas yielded to that satanic influence.)
Quote the key is the definition of (FREE) Will. The definition i heard was to choose something without (any influence) of any kind This is not the definition most think of when they think of free will. And even if they consider this definition, many would regard this, as “any [outside] influence.”
If I force or someone forces you to make a choice, of course that's not free will.
If you force yourself to make a choice, I think most would still consider that free will.
Sometimes, we have to make the hard choices. Let me rephrase that: We don't have to make them, but we choose to, because we think it's in our best interests.Quote Churches use it for a means of control over people by inserting themselves between the people and GOD. They want people to think their destiny depends on them, not GOD. I have a question Gene. If you teach that one's destiny depends only on God, and that we don't really have any effect on that, then what is the point of trying to do … anything.
Keep on asking, keep on seeking, keep on knocking.
Surely, some effort is required on our part.PROVERBS 2:1-8
“My son, if you will receive my sayings and treasure up my own commandments with yourself, so as to pay attention to wisdom with your ear, that you may incline your heart to discernment; if, moreover, you call out for understanding itself and you give forth your voice for discernment itself, if you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasures you keep searching for it, in that case you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God. For Jehovah himself gives wisdom; out of his mouth there are knowledge and discernment. And for the upright ones he will treasure up practical wisdom; for those walking in integrity he is a shield, by observing the paths of judgment, and he will guard the very way of his loyal ones.”Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 10 2008,16:45) David……> your argument falls apart because Judas was predicted to betray Jesus way back in the old testament. It was predestined to Happen. King David was created for His position before He was born He even said so. He said as i recall even His words that he spoke were given him before He was born. The bottom line about all this is people don't want to believe God is in Complete control of every thing and that includes our predestined salvation. He allows us certain latitudes But He does what He wants with His creation and he is completely Sovereign. How do you explain where it says He fains or frames evil. Another word he set it limits.
If you Get the meaning of (free Will) and look at it closely you will fin there is not such thing as free Will, everything is the result of cause and effect, If you realized how important it is to experience both good and evil in order to get wisdom and learn to love the good and Hate the evil you would see things different.
IMO……..gene
Look again Gene…Judas WAS NOT predicited…all that was predicited was that SOMEONE would betray..Lemme clarify…Jesus DID NOT know that Judas would betray him when picked his 12…it was only later when Jesus thru his father's holy spirit came to that knowledge
Quote (david @ June 10 2008,17:36) Quote your argument falls apart because Judas was predicted to betray Jesus way back in the old testament. It was predestined to Happen. True, in the account at John 6:64, on the occasion of some disciples stumbling over certain teachings of Jesus, we read that “from the beginning [“from the outset,” JB] Jesus knew who were the ones not believing and who was the one that would betray him.” While the word “beginning” (Gr., ar·khe′) is used at 2 Peter 3:4 to refer to the start of creation, it can also refer to other times. (Lu 1:2; Joh 15:27) For example, when the apostle Peter spoke of the holy spirit falling on Gentiles “just as it did also upon us in the beginning,” he obviously was not referring to the beginning of his discipleship or apostleship but to an important point in his ministry, the day of Pentecost, 33 C.E., “the beginning” of the outpouring of the holy spirit for a certain purpose. (Ac 11:15; 2:1-4) It is therefore interesting to note this comment on John 6:64 in Lange’s Commentary on the Holy Scriptures (p. 227): “Beginning . . . means not, metaphysically from the beginning of all things, . . . nor from the beginning of His [Jesus’] acquaintance with each one, . . . nor from the beginning of His collecting of the disciples around Him, or the beginning of His Messianic ministry, . . . but from the first secret germs of unbelief [that produced the stumbling of some disciples]. So also He knew His betrayer from the beginning.”—Translated and edited by P. Schaff, 1976; compare 1Jo 3:8, 11, 12.
From Hebrew Scripture prophecies Christ knew that he would be betrayed by a close associate. (Ps 41:9; 109:8; Joh 13:18, 19)
At the beginning of his apostleship Judas was faithful to God and to Jesus. Thus Christ must have meant that “from the beginning” of when Judas started to go bad, started to give in to imperfection and sinful inclinations, Jesus recognized it. (Joh 2:24, 25; Re 1:1; 2:23)
John 6:64: “From the beginning Jesus knew . . . who was the one that would betray him.”
Not from the beginning of creation, nor from the time of Judas’ birth, but “from the beginning” of his acting treacherously.
Compare Genesis 1:1, Luke 1:2, and 1 John 2:7, 13, in each of which texts “beginning” is used in a relative sense. Take note also of John 12:4-6.Ps. 41:9: “The man at peace with me, in whom I trusted, who was eating my bread, has magnified his heel against me.”
Notice that the prophecy does not specify which close associate of Jesus it would be. Jehovah knew that the Devil had used David’s counselor Ahithophel to betray him, and He had that recorded because it demonstrated how the Devil operated and what he would do in the future.
It was not God but “THE DEVIL . . . [who] put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray him [Jesus].” [John 13:2] Instead of resisting, Judas yielded to that satanic influence.)
Oops..somehow I missed this post…Basically I am saying what David said here…
Making good use of that WT Library I see…
Effort is without a doubt required…remember these scriptures
Romans 7:14-20…14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
Hebrews 10:36 (New International Version)- 36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.
James 1:12 (New International Version)- 12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
James 5:11 (New International Version)- 11As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.
Revelation 2:3 (New International Version)-3You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.
Notice all of these scriptures have one commanality…PERSEVERENCE…the reason Paul, John, and James spoke about it is because they KNEW that people could VOLUNTARILY CHOOSE to turn there backs on GOD…and who were they talking to here..why it was ANNOINTED CHOSEN ONES of GOD… thats why they said there perseverence would be rewarded…
There would be no need to admonish them to KEEP persevering if there was NO possibility of them turning away…
Quote (Lightenup @ June 10 2008,11:25) Quote (gollamudi @ June 08 2008,06:57) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 08 2008,17:54) 942767…..the people in Rev 9:20 will inter into a fiery Judgment with God in the second resurrection and by this intense Judgment that God will bring on them, then they will repent. What you are quoting is what these people are doing in this life, they will come up and be cast into intense judgment (Lake of Fire) “for our GOD is a Consuming Fire”.
This fire is compared to Fire that purifies Gold by melting it and the dross floats to the top and is skimmed off, the gold is purified in fire, symbolically that is whats meant by men being cast into the lake of fire. God's intense judgment is like a fire that purifies us.
The book of revelations was (signified) which means (symbolized). The lake of Fire is symbolic language, and not literally a physical fire, as most think.
IMO…….gene
peace to you…………gene
As few are thinking that Jesus was literal light that was created by God on the day One.
Golla,
The Son of God is the Light, born on day one, not created but begotten/born of God. There is a big difference.
LU
Hi LU,
God created light on the day One just like He created the whole creation in six days. You can not distinguish light from all other creation which was also created by God alone without anyone (other Gods) besides Him (Is 44:24, 46:21-22).
Your assumptions about “the light as son of God, begotten not created” purely speculation like any other Trinitarian.
You have not yet replied my queries in my post in pre-existence that “if the light on the day One was the son of God then who was the darkness which was not at all created by God during the six days of creation do you mean to say it was Satan?
Come on my Sis you have to test every thing in the light of God's word. Don't get discourased by my words, I just want to provoke your thinking.
Take care
AdamQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2008,06:38) Hi,
I think we all agree FREE is not an absolute.
AMENYes..that is the point..
Quote (david @ June 10 2008,17:13) Quote David …..the point is do you believe in the absolute sovereignty of God?
As far as I can tell, JW's are the only ones that speak of God's sovereignty on a regular basis. I guess my answer is yes.But no Bible will tell you that this means he's in control of everything that happens. In fact, the Bible says quite the opposite. Because of the very issue of sovereignty, because his very right to rule was challenged, He's allowed Satan to rule. Yes, the earth, the universe, everything is still his, but for the time being, he has allowed Satan to be “ruler of this world.” That doesn't mean God isn't wise enough to know how this is going to end.
David …> I would have to disagree with you here GOD is in control of everything that happens.Nebuchadnezzar said For His dominion is an everlasting dominion and his kingdom is from generation to generation, All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: He does according to His (WILL) in the army of heaven, and among the (inhabitants) of the earth , None can restrain his hand Or say what have you done.
I could produce much more that Show His Sovereignty, but i think this suffices
Peace to you and yours………gene
Quote I would have to disagree with you here GOD is in control of everything that happens.
Please define “being in control of.”Of course he has all the soveriegnty and power and authority, etc. But is he actively controling people and all the events in a persons life?
1 JOHN 5:19
“We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one.”Yes, Jehovah, as you say “He does according to His (WILL) . . . None can restrain his hand Or say what have you done.”
But “his Will” has been for us to see that we cannot rule ourselves, so he has allowed free reign. And the world we see today, is the cause of this. It is not God's will that suffering and wickedness occur. But he allows it for a greater purpose.
Quite so david,
Ep1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
h 2David ….Read what Nick wrote and if you can understand it right you will see God (IS) in complete control. When God moves on a person they Change Period . He is sovereign The potter has absolute Power over the clay to make it any way He wants, with or with out the clays permission. God rules over and in all things even Satan is doing God's will for Him. Every thing is in subjection to Him., rather they know it or not.
IMO….gene
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