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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 08 2008,19:07) Nick….I thought Jesus said it hasn't be given to them to understand the things of the kingdom but unto (you) (the Chosen Disciples) it has been given. So if it hadn't been given to them then how could they understand? Please give me your understanding of the word grace.
He spoke to them in parables because they were hypocrites and were not receptive to the message that he was bringing.He also tells us not to share that which holy with the dogs.
If you do not want to hear what God is saying to you, then why should God waste his time trying to talk to you, and so, this is why he spoke to the pharisees in parables, but even then they knew on some occasions that he was talking about them.
God Bless
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 08 2008,16:49) 942767…….Please explain this then Spoken by Jesus……..NO MAN (CAN) come to me (EXCEPT) the Father (DRAG) Him. How does so called (FREE WILL) fit here. No one who believes in Free Will seem to be able to explain this (Why)?.
And this only One of Many scriptures i can show that disproves (FREE WILL) ideology's But lets Just start Here First.Peace to you ……..gene
Hi Gene:I have already shown you this but I will show you again. The scripture says “draw” him and that is true. It does not say “drag” him. God will not force anyone to come to him.
Quote Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day He was speaking to those who would walk away because they couldn't understand what Jesus was saying when he spoke of eating his flesh and drinking his blood. Instead of asking him what he meant by this they walked away although he had done many miracles among them.
Jesus explains why he made the statement that he made in John 6:44 here:
Quote Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.God Bless
942767……> Jesus said it was not (GIVEN TO THEM) to know. He also said I speak to them in parables so they couldn't understand it, quoting from Isaiah, they have eye to see but see not and ears to hear but hear not, Lest they Should hear and see and turn back and i should heal them. again Jesus said “no man (CAN) come to Me,except the Father drag Him”.
Your (Free will) thinking makes you see it the way you do. You tend to think it's all up to you self, if that was true then you have some what to boast Because you are doing it.
peace to you……..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 09 2008,06:40) 942767……> Jesus said it was not (GIVEN TO THEM) to know. He also said I speak to them in parables so they couldn't understand it, quoting from Isaiah, they have eye to see but see not and ears to hear but hear not, Lest they Should hear and see and turn back and i should heal them. again Jesus said “no man (CAN) come to Me,except the Father drag Him”. Your (Free will) thinking makes you see it the way you do. You tend to think it's all up to you self, if that was true then you have some what to boast Because you are doing it.
peace to you……..gene
I think that's well said my brother gene.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 09 2008,06:40) 942767……> Jesus said it was not (GIVEN TO THEM) to know. He also said I speak to them in parables so they couldn't understand it, quoting from Isaiah, they have eye to see but see not and ears to hear but hear not, Lest they Should hear and see and turn back and i should heal them. again Jesus said “no man (CAN) come to Me,except the Father drag Him”. Your (Free will) thinking makes you see it the way you do. You tend to think it's all up to you self, if that was true then you have some what to boast Because you are doing it.
peace to you……..gene
Hi Gene:Please give me the scripture where Jesus says no man can come to the Father unless he “drags” them.
I have a “free will” do obey God or not to obey. I did not say that I did it myself or that I am doing it myself.
Jesus is God's gift of love to humanity, and I have confessed him as my Lord. His blood has washed away my sins, and does wash away my sins when make a mistake while striving to obey his commandments. It is my Father that leads me to all truths in His Word, but it is up to me to apply what he teaches me. He also disciplines me and corrects me, but again, it is up to me to put into practice what he teaches me.
Just a few scriptures to support what I am saying:
Quote Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Hbr 12:3 ¶ For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Hbr 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Hbr 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Hbr 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Hbr 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Hbr 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Hbr 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Hbr 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.
Hbr 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.Quote Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;Quote Jam 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you I hope this helps.
God Bless
Hi 942767,
You still don't get it right. You say you have a free will to obey God. Then why you need father to draw you to Him you can go directly to Him why you need His help? You can never understand the word “drag” you think that God is somebody who is like a servant who has to do favour to you. No my friend He doesn't require us. It is by His grace we are saved it is not of us at all (Eph 2:8-10) if you think otherwise then you are lost from this grace. No need to argue further on this free will. I and Gene we don't believe such another dogma.
Hope you will get.
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ June 09 2008,07:19) Hi 942767,
You still don't get it right. You say you have a free will to obey God. Then why you need father to draw you to Him you can go directly to Him why you need His help? You can never understand the word “drag” you think that God is somebody who is like a servant who has to do favour to you. No my friend He doesn't require us. It is by His grace we are saved it is not of us at all (Eph 2:8-10) if you think otherwise then you are lost from this grace. No need to argue further on this free will. I and Gene we don't believe such another dogma.
Hope you will get.
Adam
No Adam:It is you that doesn't get it. I have already said that our faith is a gift from God. The scripture states that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. It is true that I did not go looking for God on my own accord. He came looking for me.
However, when I have believed the truth of the gospel, I can either choose to confess Jesus as my Lord or not. It is not forced on me. Romans 10:9-10 states:
Quote Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 ¶ How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.And after I am in the body of Christ, my Father leads me to all truths in the Word of God, it is up to me to apply what he has taught me.
I have already given you scripture to justify my understanding. Please stop giving me just your opinion. Give me scripture if you what to correct me.
It is by grace that we are saved. First of all, when I was in the world, I wasn't obeying God at all. I had no awareness of him, but when I did come to him, he wiped away all of my sins. There were no works involved here. That is grace it unmerited favor. After I am in the body of Christ, I obey him out of my love for him. I obey his word but I make mistakes and so it is still by grace because without the blood to cleanse me of my sins when I do make a mistake, I could not be saved. I have not obeyed the Word of God without making a mistake and so yes, it is by faith (trusting God's Word) so that it might be by grace.
Quote Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mat 7:24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.Do you obey the Word of God? If so, do you do it because you want to obey or is someone forcing you to obey?
God Bless
Quote Jam 2:14 ¶ What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?942767……Faith has nothing to do with your so called (FREE WILL) it has to do with what God installed in you and that what give you Faith, “for He has given to all a measure of Faith.” Some have more and some have less because Faith can be measured, “know this that the trial of your Faith is more precious then Gold”. God told the unfaithful Israelites that he will heal there faithlessness . If it was a result of their (FREE WILL) then how could He heal it then. Jesus said when the son of man comes will he find Faith on the earth?. not likely.
Faith comes from being convinced of something. And God convinces us of His reality by things done in our lives, Jesus told his disciples to ask God to do things why because when they saw these things done it would build their faith and trust in God. They did not on thir own have Faith thats impossibly to do. God must give us Faith.
You ask me to give you scripture John 6:44..> (NO MAN) can come to me except the Father which sent me draw (Greek drag) him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Isa 26:12..> Lord, thou wilt ordain peace for US; for thou also hast wrought (ALL) our works in US.
Rom 9:11..> For the children being not yet born neither neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God might stand not of works, but of him that calleth.
Eph 2:16..> for we are (HIS) workmanship, (created) in Christ Jesus unto good works , who has before ordained we should walk in them.
Phil 2:13 ..> for it is (GOD) which workes in you (BOTH) to (WILL) and to (DO) of His good pleasure.
where is (FREE WILL) in any of this.
Peace to you 942767…………gene
Hi Gene:
Are you reading my posts before responding?
You say:
Quote 942767……Faith has nothing to do with your so called (FREE WILL) it has to do with what God installed in you and that what give you Faith, “for He has given to all a measure of Faith.” Some have more and some have less because Faith can be measured, “know this that the trial of your Faith is more precious then Gold”. God told the unfaithful Israelites that he will heal there faithlessness . If it was a result of their (FREE WILL) then how could He heal it then. Jesus said when the son of man comes will he find Faith on the earth?. not likely. Faith comes from being convinced of something. And God convinces us of His reality by things done in our lives, Jesus told his disciples to ask God to do things why because when they saw these things done it would build their faith and trust in God. They did not on thir own have Faith thats impossibly to do. God must give us Faith.
There are things that God does in our lives that builds our faith after we become Christians but we all start with at the foot of the cross with the faith which says that we believe the gospel. The scripture states:
Quote Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.I have said that faith is a gift from God and right that has nothing to do with exercising my free will. However, my response to that faith does. I have the freedom to do whatever I please. There are consequences to the wrong choices, but nevertheless, I have the freedom to do whatever I want. The works that I do in response to my faith is exercising my free will. I obey the Lord because I love him and appreciate what he has done for me, but I am not forced to do anything. I do it because I want to do it.
You say:
Quote You ask me to give you scripture John 6:44..> (NO MAN) can come to me except the Father which sent me draw (Greek drag) him; and I will raise him up at the last day. I am aware that one of the definitions of the greek word here is to drag off, but that is not the translation. It states “draw” not “drag”.
I have checked several translations and the greek interlinear and the all say draw which is correct. He does draw us unto him. He doesn't force himself on anyone.
I'll quote this verse from the KJV:
Quote Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me “draw” him: and I will raise him up at the last day. And I have already showed you why Jesus said this:
Quote Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.You quote the following scripture to justify your postion:
Quote Isa 26:12..> Lord, thou wilt ordain peace for US; for thou also hast wrought (ALL) our works in US. Let's quote it in context and see what this means from the NIV:
Quote Isa 26:9 My soul yearns for you in the night;
in the morning my spirit longs for you.
When your judgments come upon the earth,
the people of the world learn righteousness.
sa 26:10 Though grace is shown to the wicked,
they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil
and regard not the majesty of the Lord.
Isa 26:11 O Lord, your hand is lifted high,
but they do not see it.
Let them see your zeal for your people and be put to shame;
let the fire reserved for your enemies consume them.
Isa 26:12 Lord, you establish peace for us;
all that we have accomplished you have done for us.
These verses seem to indicate that the blessings that the people of Israel come from God, and we know through other scriptures that the blessing come on condition of their obedience to His Word. It talks about the wicked not learning righteousness and about God coming against Israel's enemies.
And then you quote:
Quote Rom 9:11..> For the children being not yet born neither neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God might stand not of works, but of him that calleth. Of course this refers to Esau and Jacob. The commission to the church is to go into all of the world and preach the gospel to every creature. It does not matter how good someone has been or how bad someone has been, if they believe the gospel with a repentant heart they are saved. Salvation is by faith so it might be by grace. Jacob represents those who repented and were born again when they believed the gospel message. Esau represents those who sold their birth-rite and did not believe the gospel with a repentant heart.
I already discussed with you that salvation is by faith so that it might be by grace, and not of works in a prior post on this thread. The works in response to that faith is an exercise of my free will.
And then:
Quote Eph 2:16..> for we are (HIS) workmanship, (created) in Christ Jesus unto good works , who has before ordained we should walk in them. God has ordained that we should walk in obedience to His Word but he does not force us to do these good works. Our works are a response to our faith. We (exercise our free will) in obedience to God out of our Love for him. Does God force you to do good works?
And finally you quote:
Quote Phil 2:13 ..> for it is (GOD) which workes in you (BOTH) to (WILL) and to (DO) of His good pleasure. Let's quote this in context and see what it says:KJV
Quote Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
Phl 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Phl 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;I obey God because I love him, and not because I am forced to obey. How about you? I have a choice. How about you?
I believe that these verses when read in context are self explanatory.
942767…..let me ask you in the Kingdom is your (FREE WILL) going to be done. Now if by your “free will” you make the choices to do right and walk by faith then why is there only (ONE) WILL that will be done then. And if so what happened to your WILL. Why did Jesus have to put His will to death then surely he could have made the right decision right. But no. “Father please take this cup from me (JESUS' WILL) never the less (NOT MY WILL) but thy WILL be done.
942767…..You mentioned Grace if you understood the meaning of that word it would tell you a lot, You said it was unmerited Pardon i think that what you said, most people think that also, But if it only has to do with being forgiven, then why does it say Jesus Christ was full of GRACE. And why did Paul say he worked more then all the rest” Yet NOT I but the GRACE of GOD worked. If you check it out you will find GRACE is GOD INFLUENCING US and directing our paths.
The biggest problem with (FREE WILL) it brakes down the absolute SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD.,
and it puts man in control of his destiny and is pure Heresy in my opinion. Our God is SOVEREIGN over every facet of all life from start to finish for everyone. There is grate peace in knowing that it's not dependent on you but on Him who calls and chooses, and creates righteousness in all He is working in. Their future is sure and not iffy as if it depended on them to achieve it, If God is performing a work in you it will come to past.IMO…..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 09 2008,15:04) 942767…..let me ask you in the Kingdom is your (FREE WILL) going to be done. Now if by your “free will” you make the choices to do right and walk by faith then why is there only (ONE) WILL that will be done then. And if so what happened to your WILL. Why did Jesus have to put His will to death then surely he could have made the right decision right. But no. “Father please take this cup from me (JESUS' WILL) never the less (NOT MY WILL) but thy WILL be done. 942767…..You mentioned Grace if you understood the meaning of that word it would tell you a lot, You said it was unmerited Pardon i think that what you said, most people think that also, But if it only has to do with being forgiven, then why does it say Jesus Christ was full of GRACE. And why did Paul say he worked more then all the rest” Yet NOT I but the GRACE of GOD worked. If you check it out you will find GRACE is GOD INFLUENCING US and directing our paths.
The biggest problem with (FREE WILL) it brakes down the absolute SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD.,
and it puts man in control of his destiny and is pure Heresy in my opinion. Our God is SOVEREIGN over every facet of all life from start to finish for everyone. There is grate peace in knowing that it's not dependent on you but on Him who calls and chooses, and creates righteousness in all He is working in. Their future is sure and not iffy as if it depended on them to achieve it, If God is performing a work in you it will come to past.IMO…..gene
Hi Gene:It is not your opinion or mine that matters it is the Word of God. Of course, it is God that we are striving to obey and his will is that all men should come to repentance and be saved.
But I have a free will to obey or not to obey.
Jesus was agonizing in his prayer to God because of the suffering that he would have to endure, and therefore, his prayer for God to take this away if possible. If it were possible, he did not want to suffer like this being human, but God's will was done because it was the only that a man could overcome sin. Nevertheless, God did not force him to do it. You cannot force anyone to do anything that they do not want to do.
Quote Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:Although he agonized over the suffering, he said yes Father I will do it.
Grace means unmerited favor. I don't know that I said unmerited pardon. It means that I did not earn my salvation through perfect obedience to God's Word. God may influence us but it is still my free will to obey Him or not.
God performed the works through Jesus when Jesus obeyed Him and he performs the same works through us when we obey Him. His will is that no man should perish but that all should come to repentance, but unfortunately, some will not.
God's soveriegnty does not mean that he is a dictator. He did not make us robots but created us with a free will. We are called into a relationship with Him. He does not force himself on us.
God Bless
942767………..the words (FREE WILL) is no where in the entire bible. All scientist Know there is no such thing as (Free Will) every thing is the result of cause and effect. Stop and think about it there is nothing you can think of that the effect was not caused. The dictionary says the free will is a will that choses some thing without (ANY CAUSE) either by past experience or association of any kind You see it would have to be that way in order to be truly (FREE). But every thing we choose was already in out minds before we acted on it and so that was the cause for our action which produced an effect. This is a very important subject that most do not understand , If you have time do some research on the subject of Free will s, the first to discovery it was Socrates around 500 BC and has never been disproved even to this day. It is a major error i believe in church teaching. If you get time check it out it will open up a lot of scriptures to you.
peace to you…….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 09 2008,16:12) But every thing we choose was already in out minds before we acted on it and so that was the cause for our action which produced an effect.
What about the mad man that Jesus set free of all those demons? Was it already in his mind to choose Christ?not3in1…..they were all in his mind causing all He was doing, where does it say he choose Jesus at. And even if he did there was something causing it. No man can come unto me except the father drag him Jesus said this,right,.
peace and love to you and yours….Mandy
Good fight my brother Gene, on another dogma, what people think that they can change their destiny by their so called free will. “There is nothing good that exists in me” if they know this no one can claim that they can choose God and come to Him by their free wills. What a dangerous poison satan is putting in the minds of believers also by this another firy weapon called “free will”
May God continue to give you wisdom to disprove these dogmas.
AdamHi 942767,
They did not believe Jesus, they used their so called free will and lost part in the kingdom of God (Jn 6:64-65). Show me one person who used his free will without any influence whatsoever and was successful in the Bible.
Peace to you
Adamgollamudi…….Amen brother it certainly is an up Hill fight. But i believe once people began to see their Salvation has nothing with their so call (FREE WILLS) they can find rest for there souls, knowing we are all in good Hands and our salvation is not dependent on us, but in our Heavenly Father and can begin to live there lives in total reliance on Him as Jesus did.Jesus did not put his confidence in His own WILL at all, but only in GOD”S WILL. WE need to do the same also as Jesus did. Were are OK because we are in HIS HANDS.
peace and love to you and yours Adam………………….gene
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