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Quote (chosenone @ Aug. 06 2010,15:44) Quote (gollamudi @ Aug. 06 2010,00:28) The tragedy of Christianity is that they made two creators for this universe. This is where I call it a polytheism.
Hi Adam.
There is only one creator, God. His original creation was Jesus (Rev.3:14), and all else was created through Jesus, by the power of God.
Only God has the power, all is created by Him through Jesus.
Co.1:15-17 …15 Who (Jesus) is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him (Jesus) and for Him (God),
17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him.This is my understanding, hope this helps.
God Bless, Jerry.
Hi brother Jerry,
I appreciate that reply. The problem here is; if God's original creation is only Jesus and the rest was created by Jesus there is no difference between your logics and of the trinitarians the only difference is that they don't believe that Jesus was a created being since they believe that he is same person as God. As per Judaism God alone was the creator and there was no one who helped Him in this process.Thanks and love to you
AdamAdam,
I do know that is a false-Jewish teaching but I do not know how they can be so certain going by what Scripture actually states.
God is the only God so no one exist that can help him do anything as all his creations are at best tool in his hands. I just do not see where God did not use some of his creature creations to create the world and considering that states “Let us” in Genesis 1:26 and the word “Elohim”, which can speak of the family of God as well as God, is translated “God” in Genesis chapter 1 there is some evidence to support God doing so.
I am not stating Jesus was one of those creature creations since all that was present at that time that can be said to be Jesus' is his glory and his spirit. Jesus himself would not be conceived until sometime later in the reproduction system of Mary. His soul and those of other unborn human children hypothetically may have been present but I do not see such being used to create anything if that was so. But to be honest I know little of that hypothesis which exists among some of the Jewish corruptions of the true teachings of the One and Only God.
Actually the texts says that all things were made THROUGH him.
Another scripture says that there is one God the Father FROM who all things came and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ THROUGH who all things came.Think of Eve. God created her, but THROUGH Adam. Is that correct? And were you created? And through whom?
And now understand that the man is the head of the woman and Christ the head of man, and God the head of Christ.
Dennison,
Since you stated that you did not know much about the new covenant, I fell that will be the best place to start but I will have to have the time and inclination to cover that aspect of scripture in an informative way. That puts me in the role of a teacher and I do not feel qualified to do it but perhaps I can state the idea more as a hypothesis that requires testing instead of making it a lesson. In that way we can both learn. This thread is not the proper place so I believe I will start a new thread probably in the forum that address biblical teachings as that location seems appropriate even though I am only claiming it as a hypothesis.
God willing and time and inclination permitting I will accomplish this plan.
T8,
Are you addressing the point I was making? If so I was going by the New International Version translation of Colossians 1:17. Though upon hearing what you state I decided to check other versions and found that the same passage is translated in various ways. Here are some examples.
Colossians 1:17(ASV) reads:
Quote and he is before all things, and in him all things consist
Colossians 1:17(NKJV) reads:
Quote And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist
Colossians 1:17(KJV) reads:
Quote And he is before all things, and by him all things consist
Many state “in” but at least the King James version states “by” and so there may be some dispute over correct translation of the ideas expressed by the scripture.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2010,16:40) T8, Are you addressing the point I was making? If so I was going by the New International Version translation of Colossians 1:17. Though upon hearing what you state I decided to check other versions and found that the same passage is translated in various ways.
Thanks kerwin.I was quoting 2 other scriptures that say “through”. John 1:3 and 1 Corinthians 8:6.
However, I think “by” can mean the same thing too.
e.g., I am going to Sydney by the Blue Mountains can mean that I am going to Sydney via the Blue Mountains route.
Anyway this is another topic.
Maybe we can pick it up from here:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….y255534Hi brother Kerwin and T8,
You talk about Christian jogglery of using various words to show Jesus some how involved in the creation of God. This is the blunder and utter confusion created by the N.T writers especially Paul and John who incorporated Jesus into dualism of God. This is against pure monotheism of God of Israel. Brother Kerwin says God created this universe through angelic hosts but brother T8 says God created through Jesus. Which one is correct? I stick to Isa 44:24. God says no helper but Christianity says Jesus was the helper whom I should believe?
Decide for yourself…
AdamAdam,
If that is what you believe Isaiah 44:24 means then you must believe God is claiming that Moses did not lead the children of Israel out of Egypt when he states.
Deuteronomy 3:12(NIV) reads:
Quote The LORD alone led him;
no foreign god was with him.Isaiah 44:22 is another scripture that speaks against having other God but God and does not mean God did not use angels to create the world. Even the false Jews teach that “us” in verse is speak of God and his host so they in doing so they also unintentionally admit that “God and his host” created man in their own image. I assure you that neither angels nor man rate being said to aid God in any way since we are both merely tools in his hand.
I am not sure this is an important issue except that your chosen interpretation seems to credit mankind and angels with being comparable enough to God that they would even be considered his helpers.
Hi brother Kerwin,
Deut 3:12 talks about the God who led Israelites but not about human leaders. The question here is about the the God who created this universe He says there was no other God besides Him when He created this universe but Christianity claims Jesus is another Godlybeing who helped God in creation. So how do you interpret this?gollamudi,
The teaching that Jesus is a Deity. Half-Deity, or the like is not what scripture teaches. Instead Scripture comes out and claims that Jesus is a human being that is fully tempted by evil even as any human being is and yet there are those that refuse to believe it. After ignoring those scriptures that declare them wrong they look for others that are hard to understand and twist their meaning so as to back up whatever they wish to believe. Some do this out of corruption while others do it out of ignorance. The earlier know the truth but choose to misrepresent it for their own unethical reasons while the latter are not led by the Spirit of God and so are blind to the truth.
Don't judge all Christians by those individuals that serve Satan that Satan has led to infiltrate the students of Jesus.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 11 2010,15:15) gollamudi, The teaching that Jesus is a Deity. Half-Deity, or the like is not what scripture teaches. Instead Scripture comes out and claims that Jesus is a human being that is fully tempted by evil even as any human being is and yet there are those that refuse to believe it. After ignoring those scriptures that declare them wrong they look for others that are hard to understand and twist their meaning so as to back up whatever they wish to believe. Some do this out of corruption while others do it out of ignorance. The earlier know the truth but choose to misrepresent it for their own unethical reasons while the latter are not led by the Spirit of God and so are blind to the truth.
Don't judge all Christians by those individuals that serve Satan that Satan has led to infiltrate the students of Jesus.
Hi Kerwin,A person that is 1/2 black and 1/2 white is considered “black”.
This does not discount the 1/2 white part! (Luke 1:35 / Col.1:15)Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (kerwin @ Aug. 11 2010,22:15) gollamudi, The teaching that Jesus is a Deity. Half-Deity, or the like is not what scripture teaches. Instead Scripture comes out and claims that Jesus is a human being that is fully tempted by evil even as any human being is and yet there are those that refuse to believe it. After ignoring those scriptures that declare them wrong they look for others that are hard to understand and twist their meaning so as to back up whatever they wish to believe. Some do this out of corruption while others do it out of ignorance. The earlier know the truth but choose to misrepresent it for their own unethical reasons while the latter are not led by the Spirit of God and so are blind to the truth.
Don't judge all Christians by those individuals that serve Satan that Satan has led to infiltrate the students of Jesus.
hi Kerwinwhen you talk like that do you look at your self to be included
I know you do not believe in the preexistence of Christ and so declare all who believe this liars and twister of truth??
your views on this subject are for the least narrow viewed and misunderstood from your point of view.
it seems you do not know Christ God and father.
understand this my friend if you but believe one lie all what you believe is also a lie. this is true.
Pierre
Pierre,
Do you take offense which scripture declares about those not in the new covenant practice deceit with their tongues, Romans 3:13? Some of these individuals practice deceit because of ignorance but they are still practicing deceit. The ignorance may be because of biases or for another reason but it does not change the fact that the words they utter are lies. It is true that a human being can twist and corrupt the true words of God without being consciously aware that is what they are doing. Despite their lack of knowing awareness they are still guilty of sin. Satan is devious and so one can certainly be confident they are being completely honest and at the same time be lying through their teeth. The only way to escape that deadly trap is to be released by God. We are told that God will provide a way so he must do that.
Some individuals sincerely believe they have entered the new covenant when in truth they have not. They have instead been deceived by the Evil One and they in turn deceive others. Even though they have been deceived God does not hold them innocent as he always provides a way out of every temptation.
This is just a message of warning and a way to urge you and others to be guided by God.
As for me I will freely admit I am yet learning the truth in full which is why I am merely a student. On the other hand I have learned some lessons quite well. This post addresses one of these well learned lessons as does the fact that Jesus did not preexist because he is a human being just like you and me. The only exception to that fact is that Jesus is now in a resurrected human body. I do not believe that makes him essentially different from us as far as being human.
Edited to change “not” to “now” as Jesus is now in a resurrected human body. Sorry for that error and I hope it did not cause anyone grief.
Ed J.,
You are arguing that just because Scripture declares Jesus is a human being does not mean he is not a demigod because a hybrid can be labeled according to one of the parts that compose their makeup. That is a sound and valid argument though it is untrue that Jesus is a demigod.
I have already pointed out elsewhere that God does not breed in the flesh because he has no flesh being spirit in form and not just a citizen of the spiritual realm.
I also pointed out on the same thread there is only one God and so there is no other God or demigod.
I see no reason to start up a discussion on those two points at this time as covering them again seems vain repetition.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 11 2010,15:15) gollamudi, The teaching that Jesus is a Deity. Half-Deity, or the like is not what scripture teaches. Instead Scripture comes out and claims that Jesus is a human being that is fully tempted by evil even as any human being is and yet there are those that refuse to believe it. After ignoring those scriptures that declare them wrong they look for others that are hard to understand and twist their meaning so as to back up whatever they wish to believe. Some do this out of corruption while others do it out of ignorance. The earlier know the truth but choose to misrepresent it for their own unethical reasons while the latter are not led by the Spirit of God and so are blind to the truth.
Don't judge all Christians by those individuals that serve Satan that Satan has led to infiltrate the students of Jesus.
Hi brother Kerwin,
I think by this time you might have got more replies than required. You know this is the reason why I hate Christianity. It can not be true monotheism which was taught even by Jesus himself being a Jew. It had taken partition from its mother religion and paganised its statement of faith saying Jesus was not mere human but God himself. What more blasphecy can it create than this to make a man as God. Leave it come out of Babylon the great. You will be saved.
Your friend in God
AdamAdam,
So you complaint is that the words of Ezekiel 26:22 are true.
Ezekiel 36:22(NIV) reads:
Quote “Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.
I am not overly concerned with what the servants of Satan choose to do as that is God's concern. The only concern I have about those servants is that those that can be rescued from servitude to the evil one are rescued. I am concerned about my own self and how I can best serve God and my King Jesus and thus those who seek to stop sinning.
My advices to you is to stop focusing on the false and focus instead on making sure your own beliefs are true and complete and that you live according to those beliefs. It is like saying “let the dead bury the dead” as you have more important concerns.
Back to Topic please…
The Myth of “Free Will”
——————————————————————————–
The Myth of free will
Why man does not have ‘free will’, and why YHWH (Yahweh) is the origin of good, and evil, not Satan.
‘Free will’ is a very miss-used phrase. The simple definition of the phrase would be ‘to be free from outside restraints; having the power to follow the dictates of one’s own will; not subject to the dominion of another.’
The fact is, that man and man-kind has no free will, because all that he does is under the dominion of another. Here is an extreme example to make the point. If one had ‘Free will’, he could sprout wings and fly, or become a god, or create something out of nothing. The fact is, man does not have a ‘free will’ because man is indeed subject to ‘many’ outside restraints, and, he is subject to the dominion of another. For example, he is subject to all of the natural laws (outside restraints) set down and established by the Creator, i.e. gravity, weather, seasons, time, are all ‘outside restrains’ having to do with life itself. Even the physical life span of a man is pre-determined, and, Scripture says man cannot add to it.
All is out of YHWH (Yahweh).
To acknowledge that evil as well as goodness is out of the Almighty Sovereign Creator YHWH (Yahweh) is difficult to accept. And so, men use their own reasoning in their attempt to spare the Creator the onus of evil. Many translators and expositors do their best to hide this great truth from the Scriptures.
However, when YHWH (Yahweh) says,
See now that I, I am He!
And there is no Elohim (Mighty One) besides Me.
I put to death, and I make alive.
I have wounded, and I heal.
And from My hand no one delivers!Deut. 32:39
Most listen, but would not think of believing what YHWH (Yahweh) says. G-d they say, allows, permits, bears with evil, but of course He never started it, nor could He have originated such a thing!
Yet, YHWH (Yahweh) Elohim (Mighty One) Himself says,
‘I am YHWH (Yahweh), and there is none else;
there is no Elohim (Mighty One) beside Me.
I gird you, though you have not known me,
so that they know from the rising of the sun
to its setting that there is none but Me.
I am YHWH (Yahweh), and there is none else,
forming light and creating darkness,
making peace and creating evil,
I, YHWH (Yahweh), do all these.’Isa. 45:5,7
The created being called Satan is usually made to be the creator of evil. How foolish to oppose YHWH (Yahweh)’s own words, and give His deity to another! Thanks be to YHWH (Yahweh) that He alone is the Source of all, and has control of all, for only in this way will He bring His creation to its glorious goal!
Let us all marvel in the one YHWH (Yahweh), the Father, out of Whom all is, even the evil which He will transmute into glory for Himself and into blessing for all His creatures!
The Sovereignty of YHWH (Yahweh) (G-d):
YHWH (Yahweh)'s eternal plan determines man's destiny.
The “fall” in the Garden: YHWH (Yahweh)'s divine arrangement
Messiah: the message of deliverance already planned before the “fall”.
Salvation: YHWH (Yahweh)'s gift given through repentance.
Faith: the fruit or proof of salvation.
Works: the evidence or results of salvation.
“Free will”: Free only if the Son sets us free.
The elect: YHWH (Yahweh)'s “first fruits” chosen by Him through grace to be His own (True Israel).
Born again: Messiah decides to awaken (resurrect) you from the dead. Then you respond, and receive forgiveness from the Father.
YHWH (Yahweh) initiates (chooses). Man responds.
Prayer: communion (alignment) with YHWH (Yahweh)'s will.
Hell: purifying/ remedial/ age-lasting (temporal grave).
Death: will be destroyed (including the second death which is the lake of fire.)
YHWH (Yahweh) wins: totally and victoriously–through His “conciliation of the arrangement “world”.
Mercy triumphs over judgement! (I Chron. 16:34)
Love never fails! (I Cor. 13:8)
YHWH (Yahweh) will be “all in all”! (I Cor. 15:28)
Etc. Etc.The Sovereignty (Free Will?) of Man:
Man plans and determines his own destiny.
The “fall”: “G-d's” plan tragically gone awry.
Messiah: “Plan B” to correct the big mistake.
Salvation: A gift because of (produced by) repentance.
Faith: the condition or requirement for salvation.
Works: the requirement to earn and keep salvation.
“Free will”: Free to choose our salvation and destiny
The elect: Those good enough (smart enough? humble enough? lucky enough?) to have received the Gospel, and to choose “G-d”.
Born again: You decide to change and turn to “G-d”. He responds.
Man initiates (chooses). “G-d” responds.
Prayer: To initiate or even change “G-d's” will.
Hell: punitive/vindictive/eternal.
Death: will reign in “hell forever”.
Satan wins: the vast majority of creation perish- only a few (the remnant) survive.
Judgement triumphs over mercy.
Love fails miserably.
“G-d” will be all only in some.
Etc. Etc.Source: http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/Documents/TheMythofFreeWill.htm
Adam…………Indeed the False teaching of “FREE” Will is completely against the Will of GOD and is a Doctrine from Man who choses to be His (OWN) GOD, and will only accept GOD (IF) his So-called “FREE” will allows it. another words a self salvation granted by man himself. This makes man in charge and Puts GOD in a lesser position , by thinking their so-call “FREE” Will is in control. This is the very cause of the fall of man itself, it is a desire to become a GOD as GOD is GOD, Man want to exercise His OWN WILL as the Cause of His Salvation. There exist no such thing as a Will that is “FREE”, only (INFLUENCED WILLS) Exist. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Adam……………………gene
Hi Adam, a very good post, explained in accord with scripture.
A question please, why do you, or your source, print G-d instead of the word God? Just curious.God Bless, Jerry.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 12 2010,00:18) Pierre, Do you take offense which scripture declares about those not in the new covenant practice deceit with their tongues, Romans 3:13? Some of these individuals practice deceit because of ignorance but they are still practicing deceit. The ignorance may be because of biases or for another reason but it does not change the fact that the words they utter are lies. It is true that a human being can twist and corrupt the true words of God without being consciously aware that is what they are doing. Despite their lack of knowing awareness they are still guilty of sin. Satan is devious and so one can certainly be confident they are being completely honest and at the same time be lying through their teeth. The only way to escape that deadly trap is to be released by God. We are told that God will provide a way so he must do that.
Some individuals sincerely believe they have entered the new covenant when in truth they have not. They have instead been deceived by the Evil One and they in turn deceive others. Even though they have been deceived God does not hold them innocent as he always provides a way out of every temptation.
This is just a message of warning and a way to urge you and others to be guided by God.
As for me I will freely admit I am yet learning the truth in full which is why I am merely a student. On the other hand I have learned some lessons quite well. This post addresses one of these well learned lessons as does the fact that Jesus did not preexist because he is a human being just like you and me. The only exception to that fact is that Jesus is not in a resurrected human body. I do not believe that makes him essentially different from us as far as being human.
hi Kerwincould you move this discussion to the topic of ;preexistence ; i would like to discuss it more with you.
Pierre
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