Free Will?

[barley]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 18 2010,06:18)

barley…………..Man separate of God will never chose God's will on his own. Jesus even said (NO) man (CAN) come unto me unless the Father draw Him. God must (cause ) us to desire Him, So unto each he gives a (measure) of Faith (trust in him).  Many think (their wills are Free, But that are not. Here is an example, if i put before you three pieces of pie and ask you to chose one of them you will always chose the one you desire the most, that choice had nothing to do with you will being “FREE” but the (INFLUENCE) going on in your mind. and By me giving you a “FREE” Choice to Pick that pie you wanted does not equal to you having a FREE WILL (IN) You,  i only gave you permission to exercise you (influenced Will) , see the point were are making here. No one is saying we do not have liberty to exercise our (INFLUENCED) WILL that is not the issue , the issue is are those Wills themselves “FREE”. that is the only point here , but it is a Hugh point in regards to our salvation and who is the one really doing it and bringing it about in our lives. Is it a result of (OUR) Supposed Wills that are “FREE, or is it because God is (INFLUENCING) those WILL to Choose HIM.  “FOR GOD (WORKS) IN US (BOTH) TO (WILL) AND DO OF (HIS) GOOD PLEASURE”.  and again “GOD WORK ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNCIL OF (HIS) WILL”. Another point to consider if a “FREE” WILL Choice is a nasality for Salvation and it must all Come from us acting as free agents, then Why doe it take GOD”S Spirit to make those right choices, if it is within man himself to make them? And why does it say “FOR YOU ARE CREATED UNTO GOOD WORKS”, when we can achieve it by our own “FREE” WILLS then. Are you beginning to get our point brother. There is this sickness in man that want to maintain his separation from God's Will, they believe God saves them only after man gives him permission to by His own separate Will, So from that stand point man is a God unto himself, by maintaining his Will in a State of Being FREE from GOD'S influences. But the simple meaning of a Will Shows it is a Desire the is influenced and this influence causes it's choices. The concept of us having a Will that is “FREE” is false in fact the words “FREE WILL” are an oxymoron. No such Will, exists that is “FREE” or it just would not be a Will at all. think about it brother. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene

This is a sad day in your life.

Why do you think God chose us?  Did He predetermine it? or did He, by His foreknowledge see that given the opportunity that we would believe?  Start exercising your free will and you will see that you have it.  Who says I have to have pie?  I am on a diet, and would rather have fruit.  Maybe I don't like pie.  Give your pie to someone else.  

If God predetermines all that stuff, then why have you disobeyed him?  Did God force you to act against God's will?  No, you were lead away of your own lusts and enticed.  Same as everyone else.   You decide what you think. God does not force you to think anything. If you want to lead away by lust you will be.  If you choose to obey God's will, God will work in you to accomplish that.  Next time some preacher shows up at your door, maybe he'll shove a Bible down your throat and say that God forced him to do it.  Are you going to believe that?  

If some one rapes your daughter are you going to say that God forced the rapist to rape your daughter?  No, the man was led  away of his own lusts and enticed and chose evil over good.  There is a devil that would love for you to forfeit your free will.  He would be most happy to make all your decisions for you.  

Choose you this day whom ye shall serve.  God or Satan.

As for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

[GeneBalthrop]

barley……. You have completely misunderstood what i was saying. So you are saying Jesus was lying when He said ” (NO) man can come unto me (EXCEPT) the Father DRAW HIM. In you belief you would say that was a lie because You believe WE BY our (non Scriptural) FREE WILL Chose GOD on OUR Own.

The work of you so-called devil is to Not submit to GOD'S Will and this is achieved By Maintaining your independence from GOD and His INFLUENCE> Exactly what Adam and EVE did, they chose to be FREE of GOD and Chose for themselve what is rght and what is wrong. All “FREE” Wheller think this way.

Why have you not addressed the scriptures i have quoted in the above post. Does GOD (REALLY) Work (IN) Us Both to (WILL) and DO of (HIS) GOOD Pleasure”, or not, In you belief that does not take place because GOD Has given you a “FREE” WILL a will free of any influence, so you do not need Him to Work (IN) YOU and cause anything to happen in you right? Get our Point? You by maintaining a Will “FREE” from God are being a GOD unto yourself. Free Weller's maintain there freedoms apart from GOD Will, but Jesus did not say that did He , He said the son of Man came not to do (HIS) will but the Will of Him who sent Him. But You and “FREE Weller” say that is not true because Jesus Chose out of His (OWN) So Called, “FREE WILL to serve GOD and do GOD'S Will but scripture show He put his will to death even the death on the cross. That death was Not his WILL it was God's Will Being done. So answer us this Why did He even Need God's Spirit then, in fact why do (we) Need God's Spirit if our own so-called FREE Wills can do it . Why did God say” it is not withing a man to Direct His paths” Why does Scripture say the LORD bless you and (KEEP) You who needs Him if our own So-called FREE WILLS can do it ourselves.

So I will ask you the same question have ask many Show ONE SCRIPTURE that says we Have a “FREE” WILL (IN) us. I have yet to see even ONE Scripture that say that. IMO

PEACE AND LOVE………………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Barley…….The example of the Pie was to show you that the choice you would make is based on the Greatest (INFLUENCES) in you even if it was that you were on a diet and would not chose any of them, that still was the Greatest thing Influencing your Choice, At that time.

peace and love………………….gene

[martian]

God would that all men be saved. This is scripture. IMO for this reason God draws on all men in the same manner. He is their creator and knows what a person needs to draw him. He is not a respecter of persons and does draw this one and this one not. Lets say that God puts pressure on all men to 99% of what they can handle. For one person's character that may seem less or more then put on another's character. In reality it is not. they are both pushed or influinced to 99% of what they can handle. The difference is that one will curse God under the pressure and the other will bow to him. That is free will at work.

To show free will one must compare what two subjects might do if put in the same circumstances.
Beings God wants us all to be saved and is no respecter of persons then our circumstances will be the same. So why do some choose good and some evil. Because or our free will and not because God influinced one more then another.

[chosenone]

Here are a few scriptures to consider…

Ro.8:8… Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.

Ro.8:32… Surely, He Who spares not His own Son, but gives Him up for us all, how shall He not, together with Him, also, be graciously granting us all?

Ro.9:11… For, not as yet being born, nor putting into practice anything good or bad, that the purpose of God may be remaining as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling,

Ro.11:7 …What then? What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it. Now the rest were calloused,

Ro.11:26 …And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob.

Ro.11:32 …For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.

Ro.11:36 …seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!

Ro.14:11 …for it is written: Living am I, the Lord is saying, For to Me shall bow every knee, And every tongue shall be acclaiming God!

2Cor.5:18-19 …Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation,
19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation.

Eph.2:8-9 …For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present,
9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting.

Eph.2:10 …For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Eph.4:17-19 …This, then, I am saying and attesting in the Lord: By no means are you still to be walking according as those of the nations also are walking, in the vanity of their mind,
18 their comprehension being darkened, being estranged from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the callousness of their hearts,

Phil.2:13 …for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight.

Col.3:12 … Put on, then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, pitiful compassions, kindness, humility, meekness, patience,

1Tim.4:9-10 …(for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers.

2Tim.2:10 …Therefore I am enduring all because of those who are chosen, that they also may be happening upon the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with glory eonian.

There are more, but this should show you that “All is of God”.

Those that trust in themselves to save, have a dummy for a teacher.

God Bless, Jerry.

[GeneBalthrop]

Chosenone………Amen Brother. God the Father is our savior and does it through Jesus our Lord, by His Spirit being give Us, (causing us to Will and desire to please Him) This is how salvation work, It is GOD'S WILL that is saving Us not our falsely assumed non Scriptural “FREE” WILL. WE are (HIS ELECT) we are NOT OUR ELECT. IMO

peace and love to you and yours brother……………………………gene

[terraricca]

Quote (chosenone @ July 18 2010,21:47)

Here are a few scriptures to consider… Ro.8:8…   Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God. Ro.8:32…  Surely, He Who spares not His own Son, but gives Him up for us all, how shall He not, together with Him, also, be graciously granting us all? Ro.9:11…    For, not as yet being born, nor putting into practice anything good or bad, that the purpose of God may be remaining as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling, Ro.11:7   …What then? What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it. Now the rest were calloused, Ro.11:26   …And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob. Ro.11:32   …For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all. Ro.11:36   …seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen! Ro.14:11   …for it is written: Living am I, the Lord is saying, For to Me shall bow every knee, And every tongue shall be acclaiming God! 2Cor.5:18-19   …Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation, 19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation. Eph.2:8-9   …For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, 9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting. Eph.2:10   …For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. Eph.4:17-19   …This, then, I am saying and attesting in the Lord: By no means are you still to be walking according as those of the nations also are walking, in the vanity of their mind, 18 their comprehension being darkened, being estranged from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the callousness of their hearts, Phil.2:13   …for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight. Col.3:12   … Put on, then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, pitiful compassions, kindness, humility, meekness, patience, 1Tim.4:9-10   …(for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. 2Tim.2:10   …Therefore I am enduring all because of those who are chosen, that they also may be happening upon the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with glory eonian.   There are more, but this should show you that “All is of God”.   Those that trust in themselves to save, have a dummy for a teacher. God Bless,  Jerry.

CO

Ro 9:10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac.
Ro 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
Ro 9:12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger

THIS VERSE YOU QUOTING IS IN RELATION WITH GOD WORD ACCOMPLISHMENT. NOT ALL HUMANS

Ro.8:8… Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God

THIS ABOVE SCRIPTURE IS TRUE IF YOU LIVE ACCORDING TO THE FLESH IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD,BECAUSE YOU ARE A SINNER.

Ro.8:32… Surely, He Who spares not His own Son, but gives Him up for us all, how shall He not, together with Him, also, be graciously granting us all?
THIS ABOVE VERSE ,IS IN RELATION OF CHRIST SACRIFICE ,THAT TROUGH IT WE MAY OBTAIN LIVE.

Ro 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
Ro 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,

THE ABOVE VERSE TALKED ABOUT THE REMNANT CHOSEN BY THE GRACE OF GOD,(ARE YOU ONE OF THEM ?)

Ro 11:13 I am talking to you Gentiles
Ro 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
Ro 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
Ro 11:31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.
Ro 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Ro 11:34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”
Ro 11:35 “Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?”
Ro 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen
THE ABOVE VERSES;ARE WRITTEN TO THE GENTILES WHO HAVE ACCEPTED INTO THE CHURCH OF CHRIST (144K)

Ro 14:9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
Ro 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.
Ro 14:11 It is written:
“ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’

THIS DOES NOT SAY ALL THE HUMAN RACE WILL BE SAVED ,BUT EVERY TONGUE WILL CONFESS TO GOD,AND EVERY KNEE WILL BOW,
EVEN THE WICKET ONES

2Co 5:16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
2Co 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
2Co 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God

THE VERSE ABOVE ARE RELATED TO THE GIFT THAT GOD AS GIVEN US TO ABLE TO BE RECONCILED WITH HIM IF WE ACCEPT TO STOP SINNING AND APPLY IN OUR LIVE HIS WILL

Eph 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do

THOSE VERSES ALSO ARE RELATED TO THE BENEFITS TO DO GOD S WILL AND ACCEPTING HIS WILL BY FAITH BECAUSE IT IS GIVEN BY GRACE.

Eph 4:15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
Eph 4:16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

Living as Children of Light

Eph 4:17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of the
ir thinking.
Eph 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.
Eph 4:19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.
Eph 4:20 You, however, did not come to know Christ that way.
Eph 4:21 Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus.
Eph 4:22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;
Eph 4:23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds;

THIS VERSES TALKS ABOUT THE USE OF OUR FREEWILL TO DO GOD WORK AND OBEY HIM

Phil 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
Phil 2:14 Do everything without complaining or arguing,
Phil 2:15 so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe
Phil 2:16 as you hold out the word of life—in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing

THIS AGAIN SHOWS THE FREEWILL WE HAVE TO BRING CHANGES IN OUR PERSON TO BE FOUND ACCEPTED BY GOD.

Col 3:9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices
Col 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.
Col 3:11 Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
Col 3:12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
Col 3:13 Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
Col 3:14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
Col 3:15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful

THIS IS ADDRESSED TO THE CHURCH OF TRUE BELIEVERS,NOT TO THE OUTSIDERS,AND WILLFULLY CHANGE AND IMPROVE ALWAYS TO PERFECTION IN CHRIST.
(ARE YOU ONE OF THE 144K?)

1Ti 4:7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly.
1Ti 4:8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.
1Ti 4:9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance
1Ti 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
1Ti 4:11 Command and teach these things

YES PAUL GIVE ADVISE TO TIMOTHY SO THAT HE MAY RELY ON GOD RATHER THAN MEN.AND TEACH WHAT IS TRUE,

2Ti 2:8 Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel,
2Ti 2:9 for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God’s word is not chained.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.
2Ti 2:11 Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
2Ti 2:12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
2Ti 2:13 if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself

HERE WE SEE PAUL EXPLAIN HOW WE CAN BENEFIT FROM THIS LIVE IF WE FALLOW THE TRUTH OF GOD,

ALL OF THOSE SCRIPTURE SHOW WITHOUT A DOUBT THAT IT AS TO BE ARE FREE WILL TO SERVE GOD AND OBEY HIM IN ALL WE DO,WEN WE DO GODS WILL THIS MEAN WE DO NO LONGER OURS.

PIERRE

[GeneBalthrop]

Terraricca…………It is amazing how far you will go to turn away people away from the truth of GOD. Chosenone quoted the truth which you have rejected and come back with all kinds of your personal dogmas, and Yet in all this you and others have never produced (ONE) scripture that says Man HAS A “FREE WILL” (IN) him, That is a WILL “FREE” of ANY (INFLUENCES) But yet you believe your non scriptural “FREE WILL” causes you to be Righteous by your OWN-SELF Choices . Pure garbage and you general MO is to give a whole host of non related scriptures to try to convience other you know what you are talking about , when in fact you have no idea whatsoever what your are addressing . What you are posting has nothing to do with anyone Having a so-called Will that is “FREE” in them , and not being able to produce (ONE) scripture to your dogmas is complete proof of your lack of understanding of what is being discussed and said. IMO

peace and love………………………..gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 19 2010,07:49)

Terraricca…………It is amazing how far you will go to turn away people away from the truth of GOD. Chosenone quoted the truth which you have rejected and come back with all kinds of your personal dogmas, and Yet in all this you and others have never produced (ONE) scripture that says Man HAS A “FREE WILL” (IN)  him, That is a WILL “FREE” of ANY (INFLUENCES) But yet you believe your non scriptural “FREE WILL” causes you to be Righteous by your OWN-SELF Choices .  Pure garbage  and you general MO is to give a whole host of non related scriptures to try to convience other you know what you are talking about , when in fact you have no idea whatsoever what your are addressing . What you are posting has nothing to do with anyone Having a so-called Will that is “FREE” in them , and not being able to produce (ONE) scripture to your dogmas is complete proof of your lack of understanding of what is being discussed and said. IMO peace and love………………………..gene

gene

look at the half verses he quote and how then take is conclusion to what it should mean,

but i quote you the total verses to allow others to see all the meaning of the truth in the word of God.

no twisting,no illusion,no play in words,just the truth,

some here do not like the truth presented by the scriptures in the way it does,and so try to use influence to corrupt the truth,

Pierre

[martian]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 18 2010,15:10)

Chosenone………Amen Brother. God the Father is our savior and does it through Jesus our Lord,  by His Spirit being give Us, (causing us to Will and desire to please Him) This is how salvation work, It is GOD'S WILL that is saving Us not our falsely assumed non Scriptural “FREE” WILL.  WE are (HIS ELECT) we are NOT OUR ELECT. IMO peace and love to you and yours brother……………………………gene

Gene,
I never expected you to have such Calvinistic beliefs. To say that God draws this one and not that one makes Him a respecter of persons. it does not line up with God wanting all to be saved. It makes no sense that God would create a race and then arbitrarily decide to doom part of them. No more sense then morphing Christ.

If he draws everyone the same then there has to be a decision making factor after the drawing that makes the choice.

From the Ancient Hebrew Research Center. —
Here is an example of our modern western culture still using a concrete object to express an abstract idea. We often associate the heart with emotions such as love and kindness as in “He has a good heart”. This is also true with the Hebrews who saw the heart as the seat of emotion. But unlike us they also saw the heart as the seat of thought whereas we see the brain as the seat of thought. To the ancient Hebrews the heart was the mind including all thoughts including emotions. When we are told to love God with all our heart (Deut 6:5) it is not speaking of an emotional love but to keep our emotions and all our thoughts working for him. The first picture in this Hebrew word is a shepherd staff and represents authority as the shepherd has authority over his flock. The second letter is the picture of the floor plan of the nomadic tent and represents the idea of being inside as the family resides within the tent. When combined they mean “the authority within”.

This authority is the authority to choose. It is with the heart that man believes. Why? Because that is where the authority, given us by God, is located.

[chosenone]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 19 2010,00:49)

Terraricca…………It is amazing how far you will go to turn away people away from the truth of GOD. Chosenone quoted the truth which you have rejected and come back with all kinds of your personal dogmas, and Yet in all this you and others have never produced (ONE) scripture that says Man HAS A “FREE WILL” (IN)  him, That is a WILL “FREE” of ANY (INFLUENCES) But yet you believe your non scriptural “FREE WILL” causes you to be Righteous by your OWN-SELF Choices .  Pure garbage  and you general MO is to give a whole host of non related scriptures to try to convience other you know what you are talking about , when in fact you have no idea whatsoever what your are addressing . What you are posting has nothing to do with anyone Having a so-called Will that is “FREE” in them , and not being able to produce (ONE) scripture to your dogmas is complete proof of your lack of understanding of what is being discussed and said. IMO peace and love………………………..gene

Hi Gene.
Yes, some will give their own version of what they believe, not understanding what is being said.
I'll keep to to what scriputre says, not someones wild explanation of how they interpret it.
Keep your trust in God, and our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus, not some fleshly opinions of those falsely given.

God Bless, Jerry.

[chosenone]

Here is a rather lengthly article on so-salled “free will”.

His Achievement Are We
Part One

OUR SAVIOUR GOD

GOD ALONE is our Saviour. Through Isaiah, He declares, “I, I, Yahweh am El [God]! And there is no Saviour apart from Me” (Isa.43:11). He is the Subjector and the Saviour: “An El, just, and a Saviour. And none is there except Me” (Isa.45:21).
Our need for God is an all-encompassing one. We need Him “every hour,” continually, not merely upon occasion. For at all times we either need to be saved from sinful practices or to be preserved in the paths of righteousness.
The presence of God’s saving power is often unrecognized, even among those in whom it is operating extensively. Ignorance of divine grace is a primary cause of human ingratitude. Men are inordinately proud of their self-control, for they suppose it to be their own creation. They do not realize that self-control, along with all else that is virtuous and agreeable, is always a fruit of the spirit (Gal.5:23); it is never a work of the flesh.
It is a major step forward when the unbeliever finally turns to God, having discovered that he is not really self-sufficient after all. It is at least as great an advancement when the believer repudiates all confidence in the flesh, and begins to rely upon God alone.
Whenever we are faithful, it is true, in a relative sense, that thus we “save ourselves” (for example, from withdrawing from the faith; cf 1 Tim.4:1,16). But we only do this in His grace. Therefore boasting in man is debarred: “Toil I—yet not I but the grace of God which is with me” (1 Cor.15: 10).
Our actions are God’s channels; they are not a source, but a conduit. Any course of action which we may take which is essential to a goal, is the fruit, not the root of salvation. Though practical salvation is through our works, it is not out of our works. For grace is not out of works, and salvation is both in and by grace. “Now if it is in grace, it is no longer out of works, else the grace is coming to be no longer grace” (Rom. 11:6). Should we be enabled to carry such marvelous salvation into effect in our lives, this will be so thanks to our Saviour, not ourselves: “For it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight” (Phil.2:13).
All that is faithful and pleasing to God is due in its entirety to His gracious provision and direction. A realization of this truth is essential to maturity and humility. For no one can walk humbly with his God who conceives of himself as the one who finally turns defeat into victory. Therefore, we must not boast of what we have “let” the Lord do in our lives. Submission to Him can never afford us an occasion for self-boasting, but only a further opportunity to thank God for His saving grace.
It wounds our self-respect to think that we might actually need such a gracious and powerful provision. And when we recognize God’s true grace, it cuts ever so deeply into our pride. Many are ready to assure us that such grace is neither given nor needed. We find such claims to be quite flattering; they make it easier for us to preserve our self-reliant attitudes and ways.
However, we will do well to consider the story of the gracious creditor and his two debtors, one of whom owed ten times more than the other. Since neither were able to pay, “he deals graciously with them both” (Luke 7:42). Though both were appreciative, it was the one “with whom he deals the more graciously” who was “loving him more” (Luke 7:42,43). Similarly, when God gives us an understanding and appreciation of the graciousness of His operations, both for us and in us, we are enabled to love Him more.
May we not, like Belshazzar, exalt ourselves over the Lord of the heavens, in Whose hand is our breath, and “for Whom” are all our paths (cf Dan.5:23). When we exalt ourselves, due to our failure to perceive God’s all-sufficient hand upon us, we fail to honor Him. When we take such an approach, our career can only be “weighed on the scales and found lacking” (cf Dan.5:27).

TWO FUNDAMENTAL ERRORS

Most believers consider “free will” and “eternal punishment” to be foundational truth. However, a few consider these same concepts to be foundational error. Of course many among those on both sides of these questions have simply taken a position; most are not aware of the basic issues to be decided. Consequently, confusion is perpetuated, prejudice and ignorance prevail, and these important matters are never resolved.
We propose to examine many of the basic issues involved in these questions, such as faith, choice, foreknowledge, voluntary action, judgment and trials. The fulcrum point of our considerations will be God’s achievements through the death and resurrection of Christ. What is the scope of these achievements in our salvation and with respect to His ultimate purpose to become All in all?
The prevailing idea today is that God saves us (from “eternal punishment”) only after we first save ourselves from being disqualified for His alleged “gift.” While He wishes to assist us even in this, He will only do so if we are willing and cooperative. One must save himself from unwillingness. Finally, we are left on our own. When we need Him the most, He will do nothing. That is: God helps those who help themselves.
Though it is acknowledged that we cannot earn salvation, it is insisted that we still have to qualify for it! Such a claim is nonsensical, for “earn” and “qualify” are synonyms. The basic idea of compensation is common to both. For example: a successful salesman qualifies for a luxurious vacation by earning a sufficient number of bonus points.
The popular idea that we must qualify ourselves for salvation in order to escape being consigned to everlasting punishment is a repudiation of God’s grace. Besides, all power and ability come from God, Who alone is our gracious Saviour.
This is our theme throughout this study. The purpose for its writing is to make known this great truth. We are taking up the error of human free will first, and the error of everlasting punishment second.

FAITH AND THE EVANGEL FOR TODAY

It is wonderful to know that “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners” (1 Tim.1:15), not merely to make it possible for sinners to be saved. Similarly, we were not conciliated to God through accepting Christ or believing in the death of His Son. Instead, “We were conciliated to God through the death of His Son” (Rom.5:10). Likewise, Christ did not die in order that our sins might be forgiven; for He would never need to die for God merely to forgive us. He died that God as our judge, might have a just basis for justifying us or declaring us righteous. He “was given up because of our offenses, and was roused because of our justifying” (Rom.4:25). We are “now justified in His blood” (Rom.5:9).
But this is only so “through Jesus Christ’s faith” (Rom.3:22), “the faith of Jesus” (Rom.3:26). This is what such passages as these say; they speak of Christ’s own faith, not of our faith in Christ. They no more mean our faith in Him, than the words “the faith of Abraham” (Rom.4:16) mean our faith in Abraham! It is incorrect to translate them otherwise. To do so is to interpret, not translate. But since men are so confident that they are saved (from “Hell”) through “accepting Christ,” they assume that any reference to faith in association with Christ must be their own, instead of His. They think of their own faith as what keeps them from being lost. Such a conception of “grace” is perfectly indistinguishable from a reward.

THUS YOU BELIEVE

Faith is essential to our salvation, but it is not a “requirement.” It is “essential” only in the sense that there are none in Christ but those who have faith in Him; they all genuinely believe that He died and rose (cf 1 Thess.4:14). All such ones are breth
ren in Christ. For God gives all His people at least some faith in at least this much. God is especially (though not exclusively) the Saviour of believers (1 Tim.4:10); it is these chosen ones who alone are “happening upon the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with glory eonian” (2 Tim.2:10).
Why did the Corinthians believe? Was it merely the result of a “free will” decision of their own, or was it because, like Paul, God’s powerful grace was with them in a wonderful way? To all who have eyes to see, Paul’s words concerning this matter are unmistakable:
Paul had been the foremost of sinners (1 Tim.1:15). For beyond all others, he had committed much contrary to the name of Jesus the Nazarene, and punished and persecuted the ecclesia of God exceedingly (1 Cor.15:9; Acts 9:1; 26:9-11). Therefore it required “all His patience” (1 Tim.1:16) for the Lord to deal with this terrible sinner and to graciously save him. Many years later, when writing his Ephesian epistle, Paul painfully recalled those evil days, and in light of them could only speak of himself as “less than the least of all saints” (Eph.3:8).
“Yet, in the grace of God I am what I am [now]” (1 Cor.15: 10a), Paul insists to the Corinthians. For the Lord had met him on the Damascus road. The faith and love of Christ Jesus came over him and changed him from being the foremost sinner among men into the faithful and obedient apostle to the nations, of whom we are to become imitators (1 Cor.11:1; Phil.3:17).
Paul accounts for the faith of the Corinthians (even as the heralding of the twelve, cf 1 Cor.12:5) on this same ground: “His grace, which is in me, did not come to be for naught, but more exceedingly than all of them toil I—yet not I, but the grace of God which is with me. Then, whether I or they, thus [houtos, THE-SAME-AS] we are heralding and thus you believe” (1 Cor.15: 10b, 11).
The grace of God is effective, not merely potential. Faith is God’s gracious gift to us, with which He overwhelms our former unbelief, imparting to all whom He calls a measure thereof, whenever it delights Him to unveil His Son in us (cf Phil.1:29; 1 Tim.1:13-16; Rom.12:3; Gal. 1:15,16). This proves that salvation is not a refusable offer, and that faith is not spiritual currency. Faith is not meritorious. Accepting Christ is not a transaction. Salvation is a gracious gift, not a covenant or agreement. Those who are yet of a mind to “strike a deal” with God, are in no mood to acknowledge their need of a Saviour.

CHRIST PAID ALL

Salvation in Christ is not “the greatest bargain in all the universe,” for it is not a bargain at all. It is neither cheap nor expensive. It is free. We need not be “willing to pay the price,” for there is no price to pay. Christ paid it all. He was made sin; God condemned sin in the flesh in the sacrifice of His Son (2 Cor.5:21; Rom.8:3).
Salvation is not a reward for having done the right thing, or for “meeting conditions.” As with Abraham (Rom.4:16-21), our faith reveals to us what is already true, concerning what God has promised. It gives us assurance.
“God, Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling,” has promised to glorify and conform to the image of His Son, all those whom He chose “in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian;” this evangel “now is being manifested” (2 Tim.1:9,10). “Now you, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise” (Gal.4:28; cf Rom.9:9-11). This is the gospel—not some offer of a way to escape “Hell.”
The customary “invitation” or “altar call” of today is simply a vain tradition of men (cf Mark 7:8). Since it “gets results,” it is used. Through it many become converts to the “Christian religion.” The number of those from among such throngs whom God Himself has already chosen is known to Him, not ourselves. Such popular techniques are based upon the false idea which has well been termed, “decisional regeneration.”
However, such presentations are not faithful ones. For Christ is to be announced and proclaimed, not offered as a “great opportunity” (cp Acts 13:38,39). This is to be done so that, “whoever were set for life eonian” (Acts 13:48; cf Eph.1:3-6) may believe “through grace” (Acts 18:27; cf Rom.10:14,15). “Yahweh, our Elohim, You are the Setter of welfare on the hearthstones for us, For, moreover, You contrive all our doings for us” (Isa.26:12).

THOSE WHO ARE CHOSEN

It is no part of our calling or service today to be crying out to men, “Repent! for near is the kingdom of the heavens!” (Matt.3:2); or, “Return and turn away from all your transgressions, And your depravity shall not become a stumbling block to you” (Ezekiel 18:30). Instead, in this present “day of salvation” (2 Cor.6:2), we are to dispense “the word of the conciliation,” “how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them” (2 Cor.5:18, 19). This tremendous change in the divine dealings during the present administration is “the world’s riches” (Rom.11:12) quite apart from their acceptance or appreciation of it.
The terrible judgments which are predicted for “the conclusion of the eon” (Matt.24:3) are yet to come at the close of this present age. They are for that era. But this present era is not that future era. The present administration, as a foretaste of God’s glorious plans for the new creation, is not concerned with such matters. It is utterly anachronistic to herald wrath in a day of conciliation.
The evangel for today is to be proclaimed on behalf of those who are chosen, that they also may be happening upon the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with glory eonian (2 Tim.2: 10). Most of those who are naming the name of the Lord have never heard a clear presentation of the evangel of God. Instead they have been subjected to a great deal of confusion, in the midst of which, and in spite of all the error, “Christ crucified” was still proclaimed (cf 1 Cor.1:23). And, in such cases, God has used this marvelous message—not the contiguous “profane prattlings” which were also present (2 Tim.2:16)—to bring many of His people into the beginning of their life of faith. Therefore, “seeing that, by every method, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being announced, I am rejoicing in this also, and will be rejoicing nevertheless” (Phil.1:18).
The evangel is not to be conceived as the presentation of an investment opportunity, a “good deal,” through which all who are smart enough to recognize a good thing when they see it and willing to pay the price to “get in” may do so. One does not “join” the ecclesia (out-called ones) of God, as if it were a fraternal organization or some popular “church”: “Yet now God [the Placer] placed the members, each one of them, in the body according as He wills” (1 Cor.12:18).
The truth is, though we too were once terrible sinners, even as the rest, “when the kindness and fondness for humanity of our Saviour, God, made its advent,” it came to us “not for works which are wrought in righteousness which we do, but according to His mercy” (Titus 3:4,5a). God chose to be merciful to us, we did not put Him under obligation to be merciful. He decides to whom He will grant His mercy, and when He will do so. We did not qualify for it; therefore God was not obligated to give it.
Salvation is not afforded man at his own convenience, whenever he would care to take it to himself. Furthermore, there is no injustice with God in acting purposefully, choosing some for certain blessings and positions which He does not grant to others. “For to Moses He is saying, ‘I shall be merciful to whomever I may be merciful, and I shall be pitying whomever I may be pitying’” (Rom.9:15). When God is merciful to us, it is only because He is also gracious to us (cp Exodus 33:19).
Most seem to conceive of one’s obtaining of the holy spirit in a way similar to that of Simon, the m
agician. Like him, they “infer that the gratuity of God is [somehow] to be acquired” (Acts 8:20). Whether one seeks to acquire the holy spirit through money, or faith, the principle is the same. God’s gifts are not for sale. Peter’s testimony to those who would represent salvation in Christ as an acquisition for which men may qualify, is, “Your heart is not straight in front of God. Repent, then, from this evil of yours” (Acts 8:21,22).
Let us rejoice in the realization that God is our Saviour!—“He saves us, through the bath of renascence and renewal of holy spirit, which He pours out on us richly through Jesus Christ, our Saviour” (Titus 3:5b,6). This is so, “that, being justified in that One’s grace, we may be becoming enjoyers, in expectation, of the allotment of life eonian” (Titus 3:7).

James Coram

Copyright © Concordant Publishing Concern
15570 Knochaven Road, Santa Clarita, CA 91387, U.S.A. 661-252-2112

This publication may be reproduced for personal use
(all other rights reserved by copyright holder).

God Bless, Jerry.

[terraricca]

CO

you and gene are the followers of doctrines of men not God and his word,

you do not understand the position of an unbeliever and a believer ,you are confused by your lack of knowledge in scriptures and to much knowledge in men views,

a unbeliever is someone who has not yet make the choice to serve God;;;;;;so he still as to out of his freewill accept the scriptures in faith to receive Gods grace;

now the believer is the one who as made that step and so as no longer a choice to make but fallow up continuously in is choice ,by faith and so receives the grace of God,

Pierre

[GeneBalthrop]

Terriracca………Is that why I have had hundreds of answered Prayers in my Life , have seen the dead raised to life again, Have seen an object enter my door when i was deathly and circle around my head as was (INSTANTLY) healed all these were witnessed by others who were there also. Have had many miracles done in my life , and prayer answered by the hundreds , now tell me am i going to listen to some half wit like yourself who only knows how to accuse the brethren and label them. Should i lay that all aside and believe someone like yourself who probably hasn't even seen one miracles in his life, Should we trust you and accuser of the brethren a falsifier of the truth of GOD?, and lose the proofs GOD has directly given us in our live and revealed to us. Surely you Jest>

gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (martian @ July 19 2010,04:44)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 18 2010,15:10) Chosenone………Amen Brother. God the Father is our savior and does it through Jesus our Lord,  by His Spirit being give Us, (causing us to Will and desire to please Him) This is how salvation work, It is GOD'S WILL that is saving Us not our falsely assumed non Scriptural “FREE” WILL.  WE are (HIS ELECT) we are NOT OUR ELECT. IMO peace and love to you and yours brother……………………………gene Gene, I never expected you to have such Calvinistic beliefs. To say that God draws this one and not that one makes Him a respecter of persons. it does not line up with God wanting all to be saved. It makes no sense that God would create a race and then arbitrarily decide to doom part of them. No more sense then morphing Christ. If he draws everyone the same then there has to be a decision making factor after the drawing that makes the choice. From the Ancient Hebrew Research Center. — Here is an example of our modern western culture still using a concrete object to express an abstract idea. We often associate the heart with emotions such as love and kindness as in “He has a good heart”. This is also true with the Hebrews who saw the heart as the seat of emotion. But unlike us they also saw the heart as the seat of thought whereas we see the brain as the seat of thought. To the ancient Hebrews the heart was the mind including all thoughts including emotions. When we are told to love God with all our heart (Deut 6:5) it is not speaking of an emotional love but to keep our emotions and all our thoughts working for him. The first picture in this Hebrew word is a shepherd staff and represents authority as the shepherd has authority over his flock. The second letter is the picture of the floor plan of the nomadic tent and represents the idea of being inside as the family resides within the tent. When combined they mean “the authority within”. This authority is the authority to choose. It is with the heart that man believes. Why? Because that is where the authority, given us by God,  is located.

martin ………..I absolutely detest Calvin he was a cold blooded murderer, he orchestrated the murdered Micheal Servetaus. Please do no associate me with Him brother. Now with that said.

God is Not calling all at this time brother but just the Elect are being worked with now. Remember when Jesus told the disciple they did (NOT) Choose Him , But he chose them , Jesus new who God was working with and who he was not working with , He even chose Judas for the specific purpose predestined for him. And lets not forget where it say every man in His order, Jesus and the First Fruits then the rest later.

The very word Elect of GOD Show that it is not a mater of “FREE WILLS”, No where can anyone show where Jesus , the Prophets, Jeremiah etc, even King Cyrus Had a “FREE WILL” say in their destinies. They did what they were destined to do Not as a result of a “FREE” will Choice from themselves, not even John the Baptist has a “FREE” WILL Choice in His destiny.

GOD DOES ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNCIL OF (HIS) WILL , and again “WHO HAS RESETED THE WILL OF GOD”, Can anyone do that. He says (ALL) his purposes will stand and He will do them. Paul even brings this our more saying GOD is the Potter and We are the clay, and that the clay does not have power over it self but the potter does and He forms it as He sees if. No where doe it say He asks our permission to do with us as He chooses to. And some respond then why does He find Fault as some here have said , but the fact is god will Do with you or me or anyone as he see fit to do with. With or without the (PERMISSION) od our captivated and Influenced WILL.

The offer still stands can anyone Show one Scripture that say we Have a “FREE” WILL (IN) Us. martian most hate the idea of GOD'S complete SOVEREIGNTY , even over our lives. I am going to be in the Kingdom of GOD Not because I chose GOD but because He chose ME. IMO

But you have been given much understanding especially concerning the false teachings of (PREEXISTENCES). And I totally agree with you on that Brother.

peace and love to you and yours………………..gene

[Ed J]

Quote (chosenone @ July 19 2010,05:40)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 19 2010,00:49) Terraricca…………It is amazing how far you will go to turn away people away from the truth of GOD. Chosenone quoted the truth which you have rejected and come back with all kinds of your personal dogmas, and Yet in all this you and others have never produced (ONE) scripture that says Man HAS A “FREE WILL” (IN)  him, That is a WILL “FREE” of ANY (INFLUENCES) But yet you believe your non scriptural “FREE WILL” causes you to be Righteous by your OWN-SELF Choices .  Pure garbage  and you general MO is to give a whole host of non related scriptures to try to convience other you know what you are talking about , when in fact you have no idea whatsoever what your are addressing . What you are posting has nothing to do with anyone Having a so-called Will that is “FREE” in them , and not being able to produce (ONE) scripture to your dogmas is complete proof of your lack of understanding of what is being discussed and said. IMO peace and love………………………..gene Hi Gene.   Yes, some will give their own version of what they believe, not understanding what is being said.   I'll keep to to what scriputre says, not someones wild explanation of how they interpret it.   Keep your trust in God, and our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus, not some fleshly opinions of those falsely given. God Bless,  Jerry.

Hi Chosenone,

Your just seeing your own reflection in Terraricca. (Psalm 18:25-27)

Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (chosenone @ July 19 2010,05:53)

Here is a rather lengthly article on so-salled “free will”. His Achievement Are We Part One OUR SAVIOUR GOD   GOD ALONE is our Saviour. Through Isaiah, He declares, “I, I, Yahweh am El [God]! And there is no Saviour apart from Me” (Isa.43:11). He is the Subjector and the Saviour: “An El, just, and a Saviour. And none is there except Me” (Isa.45:21). Our need for God is an all-encompassing one. We need Him “every hour,” continually, not merely upon occasion. For at all times we either need to be saved from sinful practices or to be preserved in the paths of righteousness. The presence of God’s saving power is often unrecognized, even among those in whom it is operating extensively. Ignorance of divine grace is a primary cause of human ingratitude. Men are inordinately proud of their self-control, for they suppose it to be their own creation. They do not realize that self-control, along with all else that is virtuous and agreeable, is always a fruit of the spirit (Gal.5:23); it is never a work of the flesh. It is a major step forward when the unbeliever finally turns to God, having discovered that he is not really self-sufficient after all. It is at least as great an advancement when the believer repudiates all confidence in the flesh, and begins to rely upon God alone. Whenever we are faithful, it is true, in a relative sense, that thus we “save ourselves” (for example, from withdrawing from the faith; cf 1 Tim.4:1,16). But we only do this in His grace. Therefore boasting in man is debarred: “Toil I—yet not I but the grace of God which is with me” (1 Cor.15: 10). Our actions are God’s channels; they are not a source, but a conduit. Any course of action which we may take which is essential to a goal, is the fruit, not the root of salvation. Though practical salvation is through our works, it is not out of our works. For grace is not out of works, and salvation is both in and by grace. “Now if it is in grace, it is no longer out of works, else the grace is coming to be no longer grace” (Rom. 11:6). Should we be enabled to carry such marvelous salvation into effect in our lives, this will be so thanks to our Saviour, not ourselves: “For it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight” (Phil.2:13). All that is faithful and pleasing to God is due in its entirety to His gracious provision and direction. A realization of this truth is essential to maturity and humility. For no one can walk humbly with his God who conceives of himself as the one who finally turns defeat into victory. Therefore, we must not boast of what we have “let” the Lord do in our lives. Submission to Him can never afford us an occasion for self-boasting, but only a further opportunity to thank God for His saving grace. It wounds our self-respect to think that we might actually need such a gracious and powerful provision. And when we recognize God’s true grace, it cuts ever so deeply into our pride. Many are ready to assure us that such grace is neither given nor needed. We find such claims to be quite flattering; they make it easier for us to preserve our self-reliant attitudes and ways. However, we will do well to consider the story of the gracious creditor and his two debtors, one of whom owed ten times more than the other. Since neither were able to pay, “he deals graciously with them both” (Luke 7:42). Though both were appreciative, it was the one “with whom he deals the more graciously” who was “loving him more” (Luke 7:42,43). Similarly, when God gives us an understanding and appreciation of the graciousness of His operations, both for us and in us, we are enabled to love Him more. May we not, like Belshazzar, exalt ourselves over the Lord of the heavens, in Whose hand is our breath, and “for Whom” are all our paths (cf Dan.5:23). When we exalt ourselves, due to our failure to perceive God’s all-sufficient hand upon us, we fail to honor Him. When we take such an approach, our career can only be “weighed on the scales and found lacking” (cf Dan.5:27). TWO FUNDAMENTAL ERRORS Most believers consider “free will” and “eternal punishment” to be foundational truth. However, a few consider these same concepts to be foundational error. Of course many among those on both sides of these questions have simply taken a position; most are not aware of the basic issues to be decided. Consequently, confusion is perpetuated, prejudice and ignorance prevail, and these important matters are never resolved. We propose to examine many of the basic issues involved in these questions, such as faith, choice, foreknowledge, voluntary action, judgment and trials. The fulcrum point of our considerations will be God’s achievements through the death and resurrection of Christ. What is the scope of these achievements in our salvation and with respect to His ultimate purpose to become All in all? The prevailing idea today is that God saves us (from “eternal punishment”) only after we first save ourselves from being disqualified for His alleged “gift.” While He wishes to assist us even in this, He will only do so if we are willing and cooperative. One must save himself from unwillingness. Finally, we are left on our own. When we need Him the most, He will do nothing. That is: God helps those who help themselves. Though it is acknowledged that we cannot earn salvation, it is insisted that we still have to qualify for it! Such a claim is nonsensical, for “earn” and “qualify” are synonyms. The basic idea of compensation is common to both. For example: a successful salesman qualifies for a luxurious vacation by earning a sufficient number of bonus points. The popular idea that we must qualify ourselves for salvation in order to escape being consigned to everlasting punishment is a repudiation of God’s grace. Besides, all power and ability come from God, Who alone is our gracious Saviour. This is our theme throughout this study. The purpose for its writing is to make known this great truth. We are taking up the error of human free will first, and the error of everlasting punishment second. FAITH AND THE EVANGEL FOR TODAY It is wonderful to know that “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners” (1 Tim.1:15), not merely to make it possible for sinners to be saved. Similarly, we were not conciliated to God through accepting Christ or believing in the death of His Son. Instead, “We were conciliated to God through the death of His Son” (Rom.5:10). Likewise, Christ did not die in order that our sins might be forgiven; for He would never need to die for God merely to forgive us. He died that God as our judge, might have a just basis for justifying us or declaring us righteous. He “was given up because of our offenses, and was roused because of our justifying” (Rom.4:25). We are “now justified in His blood” (Rom.5:9). But this is only so “through Jesus Christ’s faith” (Rom.3:22), “the faith of Jesus” (Rom.3:26). This is what such passages as these say; they speak of Christ’s own faith, not of our faith in Christ. They no more mean our faith in Him, than the words “the faith of Abraham” (Rom.4:16) mean our faith in Abraham! It is incorrect to translate them otherwise. To do so is to interpret, not translate. But since men are so confident that they are saved (from “Hell”) through “accepting Christ,” they assume that any reference to faith in association with Christ must be their own, instead of His. They think of their own faith as what keeps them from being lost. Such a conception of “grace” is perfectly indistinguishable from a reward. THUS YOU BELIEVE Faith is essential to our salvatio n, but it is not a “requirement.” It is “essential” only in the sense that there are none in Christ but those who have faith in Him; they all genuinely believe that He died and rose (cf 1 Thess.4:14). All such ones are brethren in Christ. For God gives all His people at least some faith in at least this much. God is especially (though not exclusively) the Saviour of believers (1 Tim.4:10); it is these chosen ones who alone are “happening upon the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with glory eonian” (2 Tim.2:10). Why did the Corinthians believe? Was it merely the result of a “free will” decision of their own, or was it because, like Paul, God’s powerful grace was with them in a wonderful way? To all who have eyes to see, Paul’s words concerning this matter are unmistakable: Paul had been the foremost of sinners (1 Tim.1:15). For beyond all others, he had committed much contrary to the name of Jesus the Nazarene, and punished and persecuted the ecclesia of God exceedingly (1 Cor.15:9; Acts 9:1; 26:9-11). Therefore it required “all His patience” (1 Tim.1:16) for the Lord to deal with this terrible sinner and to graciously save him. Many years later, when writing his Ephesian epistle, Paul painfully recalled those evil days, and in light of them could only speak of himself as “less than the least of all saints” (Eph.3:8). “Yet, in the grace of God I am what I am [now]” (1 Cor.15: 10a), Paul insists to the Corinthians. For the Lord had met him on the Damascus road. The faith and love of Christ Jesus came over him and changed him from being the foremost sinner among men into the faithful and obedient apostle to the nations, of whom we are to become imitators (1 Cor.11:1; Phil.3:17). Paul accounts for the faith of the Corinthians (even as the heralding of the twelve, cf 1 Cor.12:5) on this same ground: “His grace, which is in me, did not come to be for naught, but more exceedingly than all of them toil I—yet not I, but the grace of God which is with me. Then, whether I or they, thus [houtos, THE-SAME-AS] we are heralding and thus you believe” (1 Cor.15: 10b, 11). The grace of God is effective, not merely potential. Faith is God’s gracious gift to us, with which He overwhelms our former unbelief, imparting to all whom He calls a measure thereof, whenever it delights Him to unveil His Son in us (cf Phil.1:29; 1 Tim.1:13-16; Rom.12:3; Gal. 1:15,16). This proves that salvation is not a refusable offer, and that faith is not spiritual currency. Faith is not meritorious. Accepting Christ is not a transaction. Salvation is a gracious gift, not a covenant or agreement. Those who are yet of a mind to “strike a deal” with God, are in no mood to acknowledge their need of a Saviour. CHRIST PAID ALL Salvation in Christ is not “the greatest bargain in all the universe,” for it is not a bargain at all. It is neither cheap nor expensive. It is free. We need not be “willing to pay the price,” for there is no price to pay. Christ paid it all. He was made sin; God condemned sin in the flesh in the sacrifice of His Son (2 Cor.5:21; Rom.8:3). Salvation is not a reward for having done the right thing, or for “meeting conditions.” As with Abraham (Rom.4:16-21), our faith reveals to us what is already true, concerning what God has promised. It gives us assurance. “God, Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling,” has promised to glorify and conform to the image of His Son, all those whom He chose “in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian;” this evangel “now is being manifested” (2 Tim.1:9,10). “Now you, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise” (Gal.4:28; cf Rom.9:9-11). This is the gospel—not some offer of a way to escape “Hell.” The customary “invitation” or “altar call” of today is simply a vain tradition of men (cf Mark 7:8). Since it “gets results,” it is used. Through it many become converts to the “Christian religion.” The number of those from among such throngs whom God Himself has already chosen is known to Him, not ourselves. Such popular techniques are based upon the false idea which has well been termed, “decisional regeneration.” However, such presentations are not faithful ones. For Christ is to be announced and proclaimed, not offered as a “great opportunity” (cp Acts 13:38,39). This is to be done so that, “whoever were set for life eonian” (Acts 13:48; cf Eph.1:3-6) may believe “through grace” (Acts 18:27; cf Rom.10:14,15). “Yahweh, our Elohim, You are the Setter of welfare on the hearthstones for us, For, moreover, You contrive all our doings for us” (Isa.26:12). THOSE WHO ARE CHOSEN It is no part of our calling or service today to be crying out to men, “Repent! for near is the kingdom of the heavens!” (Matt.3:2); or, “Return and turn away from all your transgressions, And your depravity shall not become a stumbling block to you” (Ezekiel 18:30). Instead, in this present “day of salvation” (2 Cor.6:2), we are to dispense “the word of the conciliation,” “how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them” (2 Cor.5:18, 19). This tremendous change in the divine dealings during the present administration is “the world’s riches” (Rom.11:12) quite apart from their acceptance or appreciation of it. The terrible judgments which are predicted for “the conclusion of the eon” (Matt.24:3) are yet to come at the close of this present age. They are for that era. But this present era is not that future era. The present administration, as a foretaste of God’s glorious plans for the new creation, is not concerned with such matters. It is utterly anachronistic to herald wrath in a day of conciliation. The evangel for today is to be proclaimed on behalf of those who are chosen, that they also may be happening upon the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with glory eonian (2 Tim.2: 10). Most of those who are naming the name of the Lord have never heard a clear presentation of the evangel of God. Instead they have been subjected to a great deal of confusion, in the midst of which, and in spite of all the error, “Christ crucified” was still proclaimed (cf 1 Cor.1:23). And, in such cases, God has used this marvelous message—not the contiguous “profane prattlings” which were also present (2 Tim.2:16)—to bring many of His people into the beginning of their life of faith. Therefore, “seeing that, by every method, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being announced, I am rejoicing in this also, and will be rejoicing nevertheless” (Phil.1:18). The evangel is not to be conceived as the presentation of an investment opportunity, a “good deal,” through which all who are smart enough to recognize a good thing when they see it and willing to pay the price to “get in” may do so. One does not “join” the ecclesia (out-called ones) of God, as if it were a fraternal organization or some popular “church”: “Yet now God [the Placer] placed the members, each one of them, in the body according as He wills” (1 Cor.12:18). The truth is, though we too were once terrible sinners, even as the rest, “when the kindness and fondness for humanity of our Saviour, God, made its advent,” it came to us “not for works which are wrought in righteousness which we do, but according to His mercy” (Titus 3:4,5a). God chose to be merciful to us, we did not put Him under obligation to be merciful. He decides to whom He will grant His mercy, and when He will do so. We did not qualify for it; therefore God was not obligated to give it. Salvation is not afforded man at his own convenience, whenever he would care to take it to himself. Furthermore, there is no injustice with God in acting purposefully, choosing some for certain blessings and positions which He does not grant to others. “For to Moses He is saying, ‘I shall be merciful to whomever I may be merciful, and I shall be pitying whomever I may be pitying’” (Rom.9:15). When God is merciful to us, it is only because He is also gracious to us (cp Exodus 33:19). Most seem to conceive of one’s obtaining of the holy spirit in a way similar to that of Simon, the magician. Like him, they “infer that the gratuity of God is [somehow] to be acquired” (Acts 8:20). Whether one seeks to acquire the holy spirit through money, or faith, the principle is the same. God’s gifts are not for sale. Peter’s testimony to those who would represent salvation in Christ as an acquisition for which men may qualify, is, “Your heart is not straight in front of God. Repent, then, from this evil of yours” (Acts 8:21,22). Let us rejoice in the realization that God is our Saviour!—“He saves us, through the bath of renascence and renewal of holy spirit, which He pours out on us richly through Jesus Christ, our Saviour” (Titus 3:5b,6). This is so, “that, being justified in that One’s grace, we may be becoming enjoyers, in expectation, of the allotment of life eonian” (Titus 3:7). James Coram Copyright © Concordant Publishing Concern 15570 Knochaven Road, Santa Clarita, CA 91387, U.S.A. 661-252-2112 This publication may be reproduced for personal use (all other rights reserved by copyright holder). God Bless,  Jerry.

Hi Chosenone,

Can you show me where it is at?

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[chosenone]

Ed J.
Yes, http://www.concordant.org

Jerry.

[Ed J]

Quote (chosenone @ July 19 2010,12:08)

Ed J.   Yes, http://www.concordant.org   Jerry.

Hi Chosenone,

Can you show me where is talks about (no according to you) “Free Will” in what you Posted?

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[chosenone]

Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2010,12:22)

Quote (chosenone @ July 19 2010,12:08) Ed J.   Yes, http://www.concordant.org   Jerry. Hi Chosenone, Can you show me where is talks about (no according to you) “Free Will” in what you Posted? Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed J.
In the website I gave you, look under “expositions (html)”. You will find it in the many topics listed.
Jerry.

[Author]

Posts