Free Will?

[GeneBalthrop]

Terricca……….And what you want then to be is not what they say right?

God is in control of all thing even Evil and GOOD. it is His world and His creation and i really don't think he is leaving it to anyone else to determine the outcomes. But that is what “FREE” will thinking does it separates you from GOD'S Will and Power it wants you to be your own God separate from Him. A Free WILLED GOD, of your own like Adam and EVE tried to Be. They want to not be (LIKE) GOD by obedience, they wanted to BE A GOD. Like all Self centered “FREE” WILLED humans are. That is why they want so desperately to be “FREE” from God that is. IMO

peace and love………………………..gene

[Ed J]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 17 2010,03:00)

Quote (t8 @ July 16 2010,14:13) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 16 2010,06:51) Need More?, now it you turn to Show me One scriptural that say we all Have a “FREE” WILL (IN) us. Why don't you show me one scripture that says that we have a big toe? Jesus said, “not my will but your will”. At least you understand that Jesus was like us. So it is not hard to see that we have a will and God has a will and we can give our will up to do God's will sometimes. I look forward to your reply if you CHOOSE to do so. T8………No one is saying we do not have a WILL (IN) Us we are saying that Will Is (NOT) a “FREE” Will, again you are confusing God allowing us Liberty to a point to exercise our Wills as Us having a “FREE” Will in us. that is the only point where are taking about here brother. peace and love to you and yours………….gene

Hi Gene,

If you have a “Will” and it's “Free” to choose, then it's a “Free Will”!
Your children 'influence' you to give them things, is then
your will 'NOT free' because of their influence?
'Your logic' IS A BIT LACKING GENE!

The Bible does not say we don't have a “Free Will“,
why are you so intent on pushing this? (Click here) <– First and Third Post

Your brother in Christ,
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[GeneBalthrop]

ED J………A Will (IS) an Influenced desire that in it self shows the Will is (NOT FREE in it SELF) Now because GOD allows us (LIBERTY) to exercise that (Driven) WILL. Does not mean that that WILL (IN) Us is FREE in ITSELF. Can't you understand that?. If a parent were to allow his childern to have freedom to run and play in the backyard and do what ever they (want) , that does not mean his want are free (IN) him does it, he simply have liberty to express those desires that are driving Him. It is the same thing with our Will they drive us and GOD'S Will drives Him , but both are not “FREE” of INFLUENCE , therefore they are influenced Wills . So It say , ” For God works (IN) us both to WILL and do of His good pleasure”. It's all about Wills, GOD or Ours, Jesus Showed us that we need to put our Wills to death as He did and that can only happen by GOD replacing our will with His Will The his kingdom will come and (HIS) will will be done.

The whole fall of man had to do with him wanted to no submit to GOD'S WILL and wanted his own Will to be FREE do what he wanted to do , falsely thinking that would bring him FREEDOM and It did, Freedom from GOD that is. There is only (ONE) Will that will Be Done and it is not Mans falsely assumed “FREE” WILL? Free will is an OXYMORON no Will exist in a FREE STATE. Think about it ED J.

peace and love…………………………………….gene

[Ed J]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 17 2010,13:49)

ED J………A Will (IS) an Influenced desire that in it self shows the Will is  (NOT FREE in it SELF) Now because GOD allows us (LIBERTY) to exercise that (Driven) WILL. Does not mean that that  WILL (IN) Us is FREE in ITSELF. Can't you understand that?.  If a parent were to allow his childern to have freedom to run and play in the backyard and do what ever they (want) , that does not mean his want are free (IN) him does it, he simply have liberty to express those desires that are driving Him.   It is the same thing with our Will they drive us and GOD'S Will drives Him , but both are not “FREE” of INFLUENCE , therefore they are influenced Wills . So It say , ” For God works (IN) us both to WILL and do of His good pleasure”. It's all about Wills, GOD or Ours, Jesus Showed us that we need to put our Wills to death as He did and that can only happen by GOD replacing our will with His Will  The his kingdom will come and (HIS) will will be done. The whole fall of man had to do with him wanted to no submit to GOD'S WILL and wanted his own Will to be FREE do what he wanted to do , falsely thinking that would bring him FREEDOM and  It did, Freedom from GOD that is. There is only (ONE) Will that will Be Done and it is not Mans falsely assumed “FREE” WILL? Free will is an OXYMORON no Will exist in a FREE STATE.   Think about it ED J. peace and love…………………………………….gene

Hi Gene,

You have yet to produce 'even ONE verse' that says we have 'an influenced will'?
Yet this is what you keep 'chirping' about; well produce one?

Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 17 2010,17:50)

Terricca……….And what you want then to be is not what they say right? God is in control of all thing even Evil and GOOD. it is His world and His creation and i really don't think he is leaving it to anyone else to determine the outcomes. But that is what “FREE” will thinking does it separates you from GOD'S Will and Power it wants you to be your own God separate from Him. A Free WILLED GOD, of your own like Adam and EVE tried to Be. They want to not be (LIKE) GOD by obedience, they wanted to BE A GOD. Like all Self centered “FREE” WILLED humans are. That is why they want so desperately to be “FREE” from God that is. IMO peace and love………………………..gene

gene

you have twisted my quote were i explain how the freewill works ,and now you tell me that i have said this;;That is why they want so desperately to be “FREE” from God that is

that's a big fat lie

Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 16 2010,08:14)

Quote (terraricca @ July 15 2010,01:25) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 15 2010,00:36) Terriricca……………YOU mean you can't see you obvious contradictions . You are exactly doing what you quoted, ” ALL are adversaries of God who do there (OWN) WILL out of there (FALSELY ASSUMED) “FREE” WILLS?  You gloat in saying you offer scriptures that support you false claims. But Fact is You or anyone else has never produced (ONE) scripture that says a Man Has a “FREE” Will (IN) Him. I don't need all kinds of scripture you can force the text to try to meet your dogmas, Just (ONE) will Do that say a Man Has a “FREE” Will (IN) Him that will suffice. peace and love……………………..gene gene that s another invention of yours ,try to sell your books it does not lined up with scriptures, Pierre Terriaricca………..Then produce the (ONE) Scripture that (SAYS) WE Have a “FREE” WILL (IN) us. Quit dancing around and trying to change subject matters . Just Produce (ONE) Scripture that will Suffice , If you can't then get JA to assist you maybe both of You can put you heads together and Produce (ONE) scripture that say we Have a “FREE” Will (IN) us. Not a bounce of texts you can force to say what you want it to say. Just (ONE) is all that is needed. This should be simple for you and JA seeing you both are so sure we do Have WILLS IN us the are “FREE” of  INFLUENCE. Again your both getting the fact that GOD have given us Liberty to exercise our (INFLUENCED) WILLS mixed up with Us Having a “FREE” WILL (IN) Us. So simple, so clear yet you both can not get it, now that truly is amazing to me. peace and love…………………….gene

gene and CO

here it is;;Lev.22:18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them,
Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation
for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering;

Ezre 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites,
in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee

Lev.23:38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows,
and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

1Cor.7:37 Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity,
but hath power over HIS OWN WILL, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well

Numbers 29:39 These things ye shall do unto the LORD in your set feasts, beside your vows,
and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings,
and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings.

Deut.12:6 And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings
of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:

Deut.12:17 Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine,
or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest,
nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:

.

.

1Cor.9:17-19 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will,
a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. What is my reward then? Verily that,
when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power
in the gospel. For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

Heb.10:26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for
of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries

so it is thanks to my freewill i have display you those scriptures.

Pierre

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 17 2010,03:00)

T8………No one is saying we do not have a WILL (IN) Us we are saying that Will Is (NOT) a “FREE” Will, again you are confusing God allowing us Liberty to a point to exercise our Wills as Us having a “FREE” Will in us. that is the only point where are taking about here brother.

If we are not free to choose using our will, then tell me this: why does God judge us if we are not able to freely make choices and why does God bother to balance the forces against us, so we will be able to choose rightly? In other words, why does God bother to pour out his Spirit to raise a standard against the enemy?

[chosenone]

THAT all is out of God is the basic truth of divine revelation, yet who believes it? Almost all, even men who stand fearlessly for other truths, cannot break the bands of tradition, to acknowledge that evil as well as good is out of Him. The sad effect is that, not being able to glorify Him as God, they become vain in their reasonings, in their attempt to spare God the onus of evil. Almost all translators and expositors do their best to expunge this great truth from the Scriptures, so it seldom is allowed to reach our ears. When God says,

See now that I, I am He!
And there are no other elohim beside Me.
I Myself put to death, and I keep alive.
I have transfixed, and I Myself shall heal. (Deut.32:39)

We listen politely, but do not think of believing what He says. God, we say, allows, permits, bears with evil, but of course He never began it! We are like the heathen, who usually have at least two gods, one good (whom we do not need to regard very seriously) and one evil (who is dangerous and needs to be propitiated). Yahweh Elohim Himself says:

I am Yahweh, and there is no other;
Except for Me, there is no Elohim . . . .
Former of light and Creator of darkness,
Maker of good and Creator of evil,
I, Yahweh, make all these. (Isa.45:5,7)

The most incredible explanations are offered to keep us from the fundamental of all fundamentals, that there is only one God. Satan is usually made the creator of evil. How foolish to flatly oppose God’s own words, and give His deity to another! Thanks be to Him that He alone is the Source of all, and has control of all, for only so could He bring His creation to its glorious goal! Let us revel in one God, the Father out of Whom all is, even the evil which He will transmute into glory for Himself and blessing for His creatures!

copied from C.P.C.

[terraricca]

CO

who is that ?copied from C.P.C.

Pierre

[GeneBalthrop]

Chosenone …………They just do not get it brother, they swat at a gnat and swallow a Camel , they simply do not believe the scriptures you have quoted and posted. It is GOD Own word they Hate and refuse to even think about them. Good post brother.

peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 18 2010,00:08)

Chosenone …………They just do not get it brother, they swat at a gnat and swallow a Camel , they simply do not believe the scriptures you have quoted and posted. It is GOD Own word they Hate and refuse to even think about them.  Good post brother. peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene

gene

yea,yea ,yap, you are as blind as bats.but you have eyes ,if only you want to open them.

Pierre

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (t8 @ July 17 2010,16:12)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 17 2010,03:00) T8………No one is saying we do not have a WILL (IN) Us we are saying that Will Is (NOT) a “FREE” Will, again you are confusing God allowing us Liberty to a point to exercise our Wills as Us having a “FREE” Will in us. that is the only point where are taking about here brother. If we are not free to choose using our will, then tell me this: why does God judge us if we are not able to freely make choices and why does God bother to balance the forces against us, so we will be able to choose rightly? In other words, why does God bother to pour out his Spirit to raise a standard against the enemy?

T8………..Judgment is judgment and all things are judged by GOD, Good and Evil are things GOD Has created and Placed them before us , and we all eat from that tree so why would not GOD Judges us all, for our actions. God has already expressed His WILL right from the beginning , it was man who chose his OWN WILL wanting it to be “FREE” from GOD and He still claims a FREE WILL because that is what he wants. Judgment and condemnation are not the same things , Judgment is need by all in order to correct behavior. God has given man some Freedom to exercise His Desires in life but he will have to be judged for all he has done with His (influenced ) Choices , that does not mean man has a “FREE WILL” operating (IN) Him, even if GOD Allows Him Liberty to exercise His (INFLUENCED) Will. Can't you understand that brother.

Why do you think Jesus said the son of Man came (NOT) to do (HIS) WILL but the will of him who sent Him , We all have Wills that is true ,but those wills are all influenced by many things acquired during our lives as we grow and developed and these influence our choices we make in life.

Man wanting a Will that is FREE is what caused his separation from GOD in the first place and it still does today. The issue is who's Will will be done Man or GOD'S. Both are influenced Will Even GOD'S. But one is going to have to give way to the other, because both are not going to exist in the future . There can only be (ONE) true master of the HOUSE. IMO

peace and love to you and yours brother………………….gene

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ July 17 2010,16:05)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 16 2010,08:14) Quote (terraricca @ July 15 2010,01:25) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 15 2010,00:36) Terriricca……………YOU mean you can't see you obvious contradictions . You are exactly doing what you quoted, ” ALL are adversaries of God who do there (OWN) WILL out of there (FALSELY ASSUMED) “FREE” WILLS?  You gloat in saying you offer scriptures that support you false claims. But Fact is You or anyone else has never produced (ONE) scripture that says a Man Has a “FREE” Will (IN) Him. I don't need all kinds of scripture you can force the text to try to meet your dogmas, Just (ONE) will Do that say a Man Has a “FREE” Will (IN) Him that will suffice. peace and love……………………..gene gene that s another invention of yours ,try to sell your books it does not lined up with scriptures, Pierre Terriaricca………..Then produce the (ONE) Scripture that (SAYS) WE Have a “FREE” WILL (IN) us. Quit dancing around and trying to change subject matters . Just Produce (ONE) Scripture that will Suffice , If you can't then get JA to assist you maybe both of You can put you heads together and Produce (ONE) scripture that say we Have a “FREE” Will (IN) us. Not a bounce of texts you can force to say what you want it to say. Just (ONE) is all that is needed. This should be simple for you and JA seeing you both are so sure we do Have WILLS IN us the are “FREE” of  INFLUENCE. Again your both getting the fact that GOD have given us Liberty to exercise our (INFLUENCED) WILLS mixed up with Us Having a “FREE” WILL (IN) Us. So simple, so clear yet you both can not get it, now that truly is amazing to me. peace and love…………………….gene gene and CO here it is;;Lev.22:18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering; Ezre 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee Lev.23:38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD. 1Cor.7:37 Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over HIS OWN WILL, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well Numbers 29:39 These things ye shall do unto the LORD in your set feasts, beside your vows, and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings. Deut.12:6 And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks: Deut.12:17 Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand: . . 1Cor.9:17-19 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. Heb.10:26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries so it is thanks to my freewill i have display you those scriptures. Pierre

Hi Terraricca,

Excellent Verses on “Free Will”!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[GeneBalthrop]

To All……….Free will is a term used fro an offering from the self and has nothing to do with a “FREE” Will (IN) man. Pure garbage to try to force the text to say what in fact it does not say. Still waiting for (ONE) verse that states Man has a “FREE” Will (IN) Him. Assuming something say what in fact it does not say is a great cause of confusion here. Let try to be specific in answering question not elusive and subversive just to pump our Pride. This subject on FREE WILLS is an excellent example of assumed biblical meanings achieved by forcing the text to meet our own dogmas. IMO

[martian]

There is a widespread notion that the Bible, and especially the Old Testament, is and has historically been a force working against the freedom of man. This opinion is often stated not only by college students but also by distinguished scholars. They believe that the Greek heritage, with its philosophy, its poetry, its drama, its art, expresses the free-roaming human spirit, while the Old Testament represents a fervent religious belief that, by its very nature, is fanatical and intolerant of doubt, let alone dissent.

Ancient Greeks, though religious people on the whole, did not take their religion seriously, and their many gods quarreled among themselves, thus setting an example for diversity of opinion. Ancient Israelites, whose ­religion dominated their life and civilization, had one jealous God who would not tolerate other deities—a belief expressing commitment to one all-embracing absolute and intolerant truth.

However plausible such arguments may sound, they are not borne out by facts. An impartial reader of the Old Testament will find that human freedom is assumed, allowed, encouraged, and exercised on the pages of the Old Book. Alas, few admirers of the Greek heritage read the Bible at all. Even fewer read the text without preconceptions. There is a point, therefore, in proving our case by quoting and exploring a few cardinal examples.

Freedom of Will

One instance of liberty, fundamental to the religious philosophy of the Old Testament, is the liberty of the collective will. The relationship between God and a people—the 12 tribes of Israel—is based on the conclusion of a covenant, not unlike a legal agreement between two parties. The terms of the agreement, originated and concluded in the wilderness of Sinai, are specified by God, who is one of the contracting parties: “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed,. . . then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me. . . a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation” (Exodus 19:5, 6). And the other party to the agreement, the people of Israel, answer: “All that the Lord hath spoken we will do” (verse 8). Significantly, this statement is not a mere pious uttering, but the collective decision and commitment of a nation, a decision duly conveyed by Moses, serving as an intermediary between the two parties, to God: “And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord” (verse 8). Obviously, an agreement is based on the free will of those who enter into it. The people of Israel, not unlike God Himself, have the free choice to enter into the agreement or not to do so: their decision, while binding, is made freely.

The idea of free choice, assumed here implicitly, is deliberately stressed in another context. On reaching the Promised Land, the tribes of Israel are to gather at Mount Gerizim and Mount Ebal and be given the option between blessing and curse: “A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God,. . . and a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments” (Deuteronomy 11:27, 28. See also chapters 27 and 28). Indeed, the entire moral-legal code of the Pentateuch is based on the assumption that humanity—also as individuals—can choose between the right and the wrong way, between good and evil.

This assumption of free will can in no way be deemed as either self-evident or negligible. For there have been philosophies—and some are even fashionable today—that deny man this freedom of choice. It is quite acceptable to say that the wrongdoer is not really responsible for his action. It is his family circumstances, socioeconomic background, or the like that is the true cause of his behavior. In other words, it is not the free will of the individual but external factors that are responsible for his conduct.

Similarly, one could argue that the doer of good is not acting out his own will, but happens to act that way because his circumstances are beneficial. In both cases man is demoted from a free agent to a pawn of circumstances. The Old Testament asserts the humanity of man, the dignity of man, the sovereignty of man's will—whether he chooses good or evil. In a way this concept asserts the dignity even of the wrongdoer. For the Bible conceives man's actions not as an effect of causes, but as the outcome of conscious decisions. Here is human responsibility: Man cannot blame his circumstances; he is to blame. Free will and moral responsibility are interdependent, and the Old Testament insists on both.

Apart from philosophical resolution of the question of free will, it can be said that the notion of man's freedom and his responsibility for his actions, whenever and wherever it was adhered to, had had a beneficial influence both on man's self-awareness and on his conduct in society. A society of people believing in their responsibility, because they consider themselves free agents, is superior to a society of people who abdicate responsibility and see themselves as manipulated by circumstances, or ordered by other men.

http://www.libertymagazine.org/index.php?id=1405

[GeneBalthrop]

martian………..one can reason that way in fact most all mankind reasons that way. But the Fact remains , this independence of God's Will and purpose was the down fall of man and still is. God Said He looked for (ONE) righteous man and could find (NONE). So evidently their Will were not that good. Man down fall was His separation from God's Will. God does not ask us to obey Him He commands us to , the ten comandment were not the ten (if) you free wills decide to. God even envoked (FEAR).

Ex 20:19-20……> And all the people saw the thunderings and the lightings and the noise of trumpets, and the mountain smoking: (notice) And when the people saw it they removed, and stood afar off 19..> And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear : but let not God Speak with us, lest we die. 20…> An Moses said unto the people , Fear not: because God is come to prove you, and that the (FEAR) of Him may be before your faces, that you sin not.

We are latter told that covenant was a covenant of DEATH. So a “FREE” Will had nothing to do with it . But Fear at the consequences of death was the driving force behind that covenant. We are also told it is not with in a man to direct his Paths . While i maintain GOD Has granted us (LIBERTY) to exercise our captivated Wills and we do all have WILL, but to say they are Will that are Free (IN) themselves is far from the truth IMO> God's ways are not our Ways and his thought are not our thoughts for as high as the heavens are above the earth so are God's ways above ours. A Will that is “FREE” can not exist and never has no man or GOD'S WILL is “FREE” all will are INFLUENCED WILLS> No where in Scripture Do it say Man has a “FREE” Will (IN) HIM. I have ask many many time or Just (ONE) Scripture that says we have a “FREE” Will (IN) us. No one has produced (ONE) Scripture that says that.

peace and love to you and yours……………………….gnee

[barley]

Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 07 2010,13:30)

Myth of Free Will : Most people say that they believe in “free will.” Do you have any idea what that means? I believe that you will find a great deal of superstition on this subject. The will is saluted as the grand power of the human soul which is completely free to direct our lives. But from what is it free? And what is its power? THE MYTH OF CIRCUMSTANTIAL FREEDOM No one denies that man has a will—that is, a faculty of choosing what he wishes to say, do, and think. But have you ever reflected on the pitiful weakness of your will? Though you have the ability to make a decision, you do not have the power to carry out your purpose. Will may devise a course of action, but will has no power to execute its intention. Joseph's brothers hated him. They sold him to be a slave. But God used their actions to make him a ruler over themselves. They chose their course of action to harm Joseph. But God in his power directed events for Joseph's good. He said, “You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good” (Gen. 50:20). And how many of your decisions are miserably thwarted? You may choose to be a millionaire, but God's providence is likely to prevent it. You may decide to be a scholar, but bad health, an unstable home, or lack of finances may frustrate your will. You choose to go on a vacation, but an automobile accident may send you to the hospital instead. By saying that your will is free, we certainly do not mean that it determines the course of your life. You did not choose the sickness, sorrow, war, and poverty that have spoiled your happiness. You did not choose to have enemies. If man's will is so potent, why not choose to live on and on? But you must die. The major factors which shape your life cannot thank your will. You did not select your social status, color, intelligence, etc. Any sober reflection on your experience will produce the conclusion, “A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps” (Prov. 16:9). Rather than extolling the human will, we ought to humbly praise the Lord whose purposes shape our lives. As Jeremiah confessed, “I know, 0 Lord, that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man to direct his steps” (Jer. 10:23). Yes, you may choose what you want, and you may plan what you will do. But your will is not free to accomplish anything contrary to the purposes of God. Neither have you any power to reach your goals but that which God allows you. The next time you are so enamored with your own will, remember Jesus' parable about the rich man. The wealthy man said, “I will do this; I will pull down my barns, and build larger ones; and there I will store all my grain and my goods… But God said to him, Fool! This night your soul is required of you” (Luke 12:18-21). He was free to plan but not free to accomplish; so it is with you. THE MYTH OF ETHICAL FREEDOM But freedom of the will is cited as an important factor in making moral decisions. Man's will is said to be free to choose between good and evil. But again we must ask, from what is it free? And what is man's will free to choose? The will of man is his power to choose between alternatives. Your will does decide your actions from a number of options. You have the faculty to direct your own thoughts, words, and deeds. Your decisions are not formed by an outside force but from within yourself. No man is compelled to act contrary to his will, nor forced to say what he does not wish. Your will guides your actions. Yet this does not mean that the power to decide is free from all influence. You make choices based on your understanding, your feelings, your likes and dislikes, and your appetites. In other words, your will is not free from yourself! Your choices are determined by your own basic character. The will is not independent of your nature but the slave of it. Your choices do not shape your character, but your character guides your choices. The will is quite partial to what you know, feel, love, and desire. You always choose on the basis of your disposition, according to the condition of your heart. It is just for this reason that your will is not free to do good. Your will is the servant of your heart, and your heart is evil. “The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” (Gen. 6:5). “No one does good, not even one” (Rom. 3:12). No power forces man to sin contrary to his will, but the descendants of Adam are so evil that they always choose the evil. Your decisions are molded by your understanding, and the Bible says of all men, “Their senseless minds are darkened” (Rom. 1:21). Man can only be righteous when he desires to have fellowship with God, but, “No one seeks for God” (Rom. 3:11). Your appetites crave sin, and thus you cannot choose Good. To choose good is contrary human nature. If you chose to obey God, it would be the result of external compulsion. But you are free to choose, and hence your choice is enslaved to your own evil nature. If fresh meat and tossed salad were placed before a hungry lion, he would choose the flesh. This is because his nature dictates the selection. It is just so with man. The will of man is free from outside force but not from the bias of human nature. That bias is against God. Man's powers of decision are free to choose whatever the human heart dictates; therefore there is no possibility of a man choosing to please God without a prior work of divine grace. What most people mean by free will is the idea that man is by nature neutral and therefore able to choose either good or evil. This simply is not true. The human will and the whole of human nature is bent to only evil continually. Jeremiah asked, “Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil” (Jer. 13:23). It is impossible. It is contrary to nature. Thus do men desperately need the supernatural transformation of their natures, else their wills are enslaved to choosing evil. In spite of the great praise that is given to “free will,” we have seen that man's will is not free to choose a course contrary to God's purposes nor free to act contrary to his own moral nature. Your will does not determine the events of your life nor the circumstances of it. Ethical choices are not formed by a neutral mind but always dictated by your personality. THE MYTH OF SPIRITUAL FREEDOM Nevertheless many assert that the human will makes the ultimate choice of spiritual life or spiritual death. Here the will is altogether free to choose eternal life offered in Jesus Christ or to reject it. It is said that God will give a new heart to all who choose by the power of their own free will to receive Jesus Christ. There can be no question that receiving Jesus Christ is an act of the human will. It is often called “faith.” But how do men come to willingly receive the Lord? It is usually answered, “Out of the power of their own free will.” But how can that be? Jesus is a prophet. To receive him means to believe all that he says. In John 8:41-45 Jesus made it clear that you were born of Satan. This evil father hates the truth and imparted the same bias into your heart by nature. Hence said Jesus, “Because I tell you the truth, you do not believe me.” How does the human will jump out of man to choose to believe what the human mind hates and denies? To receive Jesus further means to embrace him as a priest—that is, to employ,and depend on him to sue out peace with God by sacrific and intercession. Paul tells us that the mind with which we were born is hostile to God (Rom. 8:7). How can the will escape the influence of human nature which wa s born with a violent enmity to God? It would be insane for the will to choose peace when every bone and drop of blood cries out for rebellion. Then too, receiving Jesus means to welcome him as a king. It means choosing to obey his every command, to confess his right of rule, and to worship before his throne. But the human mind, emotions, and desires all cry out, “We will not have this man to reign over us” (Luke 19:14). If my whole being hates his truth, hates his rule, and hates peace with God, how can my will be responsible for receiving Jesus? How can such a sinner have faith? It is not man's will but God's grace that must be thanked for giving a sinner a new heart. Unless God changes the heart, creates a new spirit of peace, truthfulness, and submission, man will not choose to receive Jesus Christ and eternal life in Him. A new heart must be given before a man will believe, or else the human will is hopelessly enslaved to evil human nature—even in the matter of conversion. Jesus said, “Marvel not that I said to you, you must be born again” (John 3:7). Unless you are, you will never see his kingdom. Read John 1:12 & 13. It says that those who believe on Jesus have been “born, not of the will of man, but of God.” As your will is not responsible for your coming into this world, it is not responsible for the new birth. It is your Creator who must be thanked for your life, and if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation (II Cor. 5:17). Who ever chose to be created? When Lazarus rose from the dead, he chose to answer the call of Christ, but he did not choose to come to life. So Paul said in Ephesians 2:4 & 5, “When we were dead in sins God has quickened us with Christ (by grace you are saved).” Faith is the first act of a will made new by the Holy Spirit. Receiving Christ is an act of man just as breathing is, but God must first give life. No wonder Martin Luther wrote a book entitled The Bondage of The Will which he considered one of his most important treatises. The will is in the chains of an evil human nature. You who extol the free will as a great force are clinging to a root of pride. Man, as fallen in sin, is utterly helpless and hopeless. The will of man offers no hope. It was the will choosing the forbidden fruit that brought us into misery. The powerful grace of God alone offers deliverance. Cast yourself upon God's mercy for salvation. Ask for the Spirit of Grace that he may create a new spirit within you. Source: http://www.eternallifeministries.org/wc_myth.htm Please share your views Adam

God exhorts us to believe His word.

God wants us to choose to serve him.

Romans 12.  God wants us to choose to do all these things.  He does not force us to.  He knows we are capable of doing His will, therefore, He exhorts, beseeches us to do it.  

The entire scriptures would be meaningless if we were not abel [Abel, chose to offer acceptable sacrifices to God] to choose to do His will.  

Choose you this day, whom ye shall serve, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.  Joshua willed to serve the Lord.  
Joshua 24:15.  And served Him he did.

[chosenone]

“The myth of free will”, posted by gollamudi, makes some very good points. I believe this article hits the nail on the head. We do not have free will. We do not control our destiny. “All is of god” (Ro.11:36) …seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!
Why not believe scripture?

God Bless, Jerry.

[GeneBalthrop]

barley…………..Man separate of God will never chose God's will on his own. Jesus even said (NO) man (CAN) come unto me unless the Father draw Him. God must (cause ) us to desire Him, So unto each he gives a (measure) of Faith (trust in him). Many think (their wills are Free, But that are not. Here is an example, if i put before you three pieces of pie and ask you to chose one of them you will always chose the one you desire the most, that choice had nothing to do with you will being “FREE” but the (INFLUENCE) going on in your mind. and By me giving you a “FREE” Choice to Pick that pie you wanted does not equal to you having a FREE WILL (IN) You, i only gave you permission to exercise you (influenced Will) , see the point were are making here. No one is saying we do not have liberty to exercise our (INFLUENCED) WILL that is not the issue , the issue is are those Wills themselves “FREE”. that is the only point here , but it is a Hugh point in regards to our salvation and who is the one really doing it and bringing it about in our lives. Is it a result of (OUR) Supposed Wills that are “FREE, or is it because God is (INFLUENCING) those WILL to Choose HIM. “FOR GOD (WORKS) IN US (BOTH) TO (WILL) AND DO OF (HIS) GOOD PLEASURE”. and again “GOD WORK ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNCIL OF (HIS) WILL”.

Another point to consider if a “FREE” WILL Choice is a nasality for Salvation and it must all Come from us acting as free agents, then Why doe it take GOD”S Spirit to make those right choices, if it is within man himself to make them? And why does it say “FOR YOU ARE CREATED UNTO GOOD WORKS”, when we can achieve it by our own “FREE” WILLS then. Are you beginning to get our point brother.

There is this sickness in man that want to maintain his separation from God's Will, they believe God saves them only after man gives him permission to by His own separate Will, So from that stand point man is a God unto himself, by maintaining his Will in a State of Being FREE from GOD'S influences. But the simple meaning of a Will Shows it is a Desire the is influenced and this influence causes it's choices. The concept of us having a Will that is “FREE” is false in fact the words “FREE WILL” are an oxymoron. No such Will, exists that is “FREE” or it just would not be a Will at all. think about it brother. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene

[barley]

Quote (chosenone @ July 18 2010,05:59)

“The myth of free will”, posted by gollamudi, makes some very good points.  I believe this article hits the nail on the head.  We do not have free will.  We do not control our destiny.  “All is of god” (Ro.11:36)   …seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!   Why not believe scripture? God Bless, Jerry.

If what you say is true then you can throw the Bible away.  If as you say, you have no choice in anything, if you have no free will to choose, then it doesn't matter what you think you think or what you do, all things were already decided.  

Choose you this day whom ye shall serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

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