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Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 23 2010,15:44) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 22 2010,21:00) SF………..Good lets determine what is a “FREE” WILL………..First of all if we are going to use the word “FREE” we need to understand what Free means correct?… To Me it means unrestricted, uninfluenced , unaltered, in (anyway) unforced, But according to T8 and you we are being influenced , we do have desires, and there are constraints, and lusts i might add, and (these) drive our choices. So this alone destroys the word “FREE” in the Ideas of WILLS. Why do you think it says Jesus came to set the captives FREE, what are they held captive by. You both are confusing (LIBERTY) to exercise our captivated Will with us having a “FREE” WILL (IN) Us. T8 ……..What you wrote contradicts your own idea of a WILL that is “FREE” IS:, think about it man!.
Free Will is an OXYMORON, because (NO) WILL is “FREE” , or there would simply be NO WILL at all. God Will is the product of Council. For He does all things after the Council of His WILL. God give us LIBERTY to use our captivated Wills in our lives. Out of all the babbling about a “FREE” Will , NO ONE HAS PRODUCED ONE SCRIPTURE THAT SAY MAN HAS A “FREE” WILL (IN) him. IMO
love and peace…………………….gene
T8 and Gene,You see this is what i see,
I see that Gene has a different interpretation of Free will.I see Free will, as a choice that doesnt depend on somone else controlling my choices.
My choice can be influenced by others or even manipulated if im stupid enough. but In the end im responsible for what i do. People can be influneced but we can make choices based on our own desires or dreams. which is not influence but our own agenda.
Our desire is based on our own set purpose or vision.I think freewill is a choice that one can make without God forceing you. Because his will is perfect, and is narrow, Freewill is the act of making any choice.
Going back to the example.
Gene,
leaving the bed in the middle of the night, when it is dark, from the left or the right side, isinfluenced will
or freewill?t8 personally i think gene agrees with us, but his only problem is with the word not the idea behind it.
SFit is mainly that Gene takes FREE will ,the word to is extreme philosophical term,but do not take the word predeterminism to its extreme as well ,this create a problem to Gene.
both those terms are cancel each other out at the extremes
this is not the way to go, you show the right way to see it
good quotePierre
Terrarica,
Ya in another thread we were argueing until the death, until i realized that we are argueing the extremes but not the reality of it.
I asked him the same questtion, and than i realized we agree yet not.anyways its a misunderstanding of terms.
*This is why i push for people to state why they say things, and for them to define things, because we end up wasting time argueting abotu things that we agree on, or that have already been dropped.
IF we can simply understand why we say things or state things, we can understand the person and get to the point already.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 23 2010,15:44) t8 personally i think gene agrees with us, but his only problem is with the word not the idea behind it.
Ya, I said the same thing to him. I said that I thought it was just word games and was the reason that a debate wasn't going to be beneficial.BTW, my first son was a breech baby meaning that he wasn't in the correct position for birth. Tried as we did to get him to move, he did not. We tried to affect his will using certain techniques recommend by our mid-wife, but in the end, he just chose to stay put. Anyway, one c-section later and 4 more years since then, and he is a great kid today. A bit stubborn sometimes.
I see the many arguements concerning “free will”. Yet in Eph.1:11 Scripture says “in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,” If God is operating all in accord with HIS WILL, how can we expect that our will will overpower His will?
God is in complete control, of our will as well as His. The proof is in 1Cor.15:27-28…
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)This is what God will complete at the “consummation”, the completed creation.
God Bless, Jerry.
Quote (chosenone @ June 26 2010,06:38) I see the many arguements concerning “free will”. Yet in Eph.1:11 Scripture says “in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,” If God is operating all in accord with HIS WILL, how can we expect that our will will overpower His will?
God is in complete control, of our will as well as His. The proof is in 1Cor.15:27-28…
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)This is what God will complete at the “consummation”, the completed creation.
God Bless, Jerry.
Co.
What is your arguement.
First of all what do you define as free will?Hi SF.
No arguement here, just scripture. I do not define “free will”, no where in scripture is this term used. In Eph.1:11… “in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,” notice “being designated beforehand”, Does this not say that God has predestined mankind in accord with the counsel of “His” will? Does not God, who is “operating all in accord with the counsel of His will”, say that mankind has any say in his own destination? No, all is predestined by Him (God).
“All is of God” (1Cor.11:12, 2Cor.5:18, Ro.11:36) I do not argue with scripture.God Bless, Jerry.
Quote (chosenone @ June 26 2010,15:56) Hi SF.
No arguement here, just scripture. I do not define “free will”, no where in scripture is this term used. In Eph.1:11… “in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,” notice “being designated beforehand”, Does this not say that God has predestined mankind in accord with the counsel of “His” will? Does not God, who is “operating all in accord with the counsel of His will”, say that mankind has any say in his own destination? No, all is predestined by Him (God).
“All is of God” (1Cor.11:12, 2Cor.5:18, Ro.11:36) I do not argue with scripture.God Bless, Jerry.
CO
you say; I do not argue with scripture.
I say;
no, you just twist themPierre
Pierre, you accuse, but don't give any reference as to how I twisted scripture. Please show me where I have “twisted” scripture”.
Do not bear “false witness”. Prove your accusations!Jerry.
Chosenone ……….Amen to that post , that seem to be done a lot here lately.
Peace and love brother………………..gene
Quote (chosenone @ June 26 2010,09:56) Hi SF.
No arguement here, just scripture. I do not define “free will”, no where in scripture is this term used. In Eph.1:11… “in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,” notice “being designated beforehand”, Does this not say that God has predestined mankind in accord with the counsel of “His” will? Does not God, who is “operating all in accord with the counsel of His will”, say that mankind has any say in his own destination? No, all is predestined by Him (God).
“All is of God” (1Cor.11:12, 2Cor.5:18, Ro.11:36) I do not argue with scripture.God Bless, Jerry.
Hi Co,
I can easily just say you shouldnt believe in the bible,
because the word “bible” is not in scripture.again, define freewill.
how can we understand you if your not willing to give us your understanding?
Quote (chosenone @ June 26 2010,16:30) Pierre, you accuse, but don't give any reference as to how I twisted scripture. Please show me where I have “twisted” scripture”.
Do not bear “false witness”. Prove your accusations!Jerry.
COyou hiding and not answering questions to me and to SF,
you believe in predeterminism and will not see it any other way,
and you make scriptures bend and twist to justify your believe.
Pierre
ps;any one can go back and see for himself.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 23 2010,03:08) barley……..Welcome to the site…………..remember, we chose as a result of Faith, as you say, however that faith is a gift of GOD and that causes us to Chose . It says “Unto each has been (Given) a measure of faith”. And also remember Jesus said (NO) Man (CAN) come unto me unless the Father (draw) Him. No one will chose Gods way by his own so-called “FREE” Will, we are compiled to chose GOD by HIS effectual working Spirit in us. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
The scriptures indicate that we have the choice to serve, obey God or not to obey, serve, etc. God makes it clear that we have choices, see Deuteronomy 30:19. God exhorts them to choose life, but the choice is not made by God but the hearer. Joshua likewise, choose this day whom ye will serve, but as for me and my house we shall serve the Lord.We have choices. The epistles offer another choice than what the world has to offer. Romans 12:9 we can choose to love without hypocrisy or love hypocritically. We can either cleave to evil or abhor evil, we can cleave to good or abhor good.
Moses as recorded in Exodus 3:3 made the decision to turn aside and to see why the bush was not burnt. He could have chosen to ignore it. Although, it seems likely that most people would have turned to look at it. God knows how to get people's attention.
Romans 12:3 makes it clear that we have the choice to make as to whether we will think soberly according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith or not. Every man = every believer. Even though we have received the measure of faith, it is still up to us to think soberly regarding it.
A person may receive a gift from a friend, but it is up to the the recipient to use it.
Quote (terraricca @ June 27 2010,17:55) Quote (chosenone @ June 26 2010,16:30) Pierre, you accuse, but don't give any reference as to how I twisted scripture. Please show me where I have “twisted” scripture”.
Do not bear “false witness”. Prove your accusations!Jerry.
COyou hiding and not answering questions to me and to SF,
you believe in predeterminism and will not see it any other way,
and you make scriptures bend and twist to justify your believe.
Pierre
ps;any one can go back and see for himself.
Pierre.
Once again you accuse me of “twisting scripture” but never show me where I have done so!
You say: “any one can go back and see for himself.” That is a cop out, Go back and print a quote that you say I have “twisted scripture”
I “challange you”… GO BACK AND QUOTE ME FROM PREVIOUS POSTS WHERE YOU SAY “I HAVE TWISTED SCRIPURE”.
I'll bet you won't do so, because you accuse falsely, a very unchristian thing to do.Jerry.
Quote (chosenone @ June 26 2010,12:38) I see the many arguements concerning “free will”. Yet in Eph.1:11 Scripture says “in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,” If God is operating all in accord with HIS WILL, how can we expect that our will will overpower His will?
God is in complete control, of our will as well as His. The proof is in 1Cor.15:27-28…
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)This is what God will complete at the “consummation”, the completed creation.
God Bless, Jerry.
Chosenone………Exactly right brother. They disagree but not one Scripture to back it up or explain what you have posted in a different way. Fact is they have Yet to post (ONE) scripture the says (man has a “free” Will (IN) him. But yet they want to argue the point as it it does say that. Interesting. Man want to be a GOD and therefore wants His own “FREE” Will to rule in His life and will only give GOD consent if from himself wants to, so man is really his own God. The same thing took place at the Garden of Eden. It was man exercising His own ” influenced” Will that separated him from God in the first place and many still are self willed (I) Gods. IMOpeace and love to you and yours………………gene
Thanks Gene, it's good to hear some positive opinions, not just negative opinions not backed by scripture.
God Bless, Jerry.
Gene Jodi and Chosenone,
Are these verses missing out of your Bibles?
1 Cor.9:17-19 For if I do this thing “willingly”, I have a reward: but if against my will,
a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. What is my reward then? Verily that, when
I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power
in the gospel. For though I be “free” from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I
might gain the more.EdJ.
I'll post these verses from the “Concordant version”, which is a word for word translation of the Greek. I feel it is more accurate…17 For if I am engaging in this voluntarily, I have wages, yet if involuntarily, I have been entrusted with an administration.
18 What, then, is my wage? That, in bringing the evangel, I should be placing the evangel without expense, so as not to use up my authority in the evangel.
19 For, being free of all, I enslave myself to all, that I should be gaining the more.Although the word “free” is used, scriptures never use the term “free will”.
Eph.1:11 …in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,
Notice … “being designated beforehand” God has predestined all, our so-called 'free will' cannot change anything.
Also … “Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will”, If God is operating “ALL” in accord to His will, how can we change anything with our will?God Bless, Jerry.
How could anyone have the same example as I of Jesus to follow and declare that they have no free will. How free do you need to be? You can walk down the street and rob somebody, kill somebody, heal someone, say good things to build one up or say destructive things to degrade and tear down. You can love or hate. What law from God are you under? Someone has believed a lie. Its our choice in this life also to believe destructive, negative trash that is written or stick with Godly truth, love, and positive reinforcement. What was it again that Jesus couldn't do? He even said his life was his to pick up or lay down. Nobody takes it from him! There is a definite choice avaliable to all who live on planet earth, to choose life or death. This idea of predestined or God controlled puppets is not for me. I will follow Jesus where there is life.All things are possible to him who believes. God is not running the show on earth. Wake up! If God were in charge of the earth there would only be peace, love, joy etc., the fruit of the spirit of God. Man was given control of the earth. Thats why is a mess. The only strings that God pulls is those of faith. You cannot have faith that God may or may not. Wheres the faith? IMO, TK
Hi TK.
Eph.1:11… 11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,God Bless, Jerry.
tim………..Chosenone is right brother. there exist not such thing as a will that is “FREE” that is an oxymoron , a will would not be a will if it were “FREE”. It would be a lose canon bouncing around off everything there is. We are all (caused) to come to GOD by His effectual working Spirit (IN) Us. I think you are confusing the Word Liberty to express our (INFLUENCED) Will mixed up with Us Having a “FREE” Will (IN) Us the exist (NO) scripture that say we have a so-called “FREE WILL” (IN) us. see if you can find one brother.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
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