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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 19 2010,03:14) T8……..”can a Ethiopian change his Skin or a Leopard His spots”, why did Christ come to set the captives Free if they were already free to change by their so-called Free Will. Trying to throw humor at this as if were senseless in foolish on your Part, and is what all who can not defend their positions do, they can't Logically explain their understandings so they throw insults at it. T8 i have ask for (ONE) Scripture that says we poses a “FREE WILL” (IN) us. again i am not saying we don't have (LIBERTY) to exercise our captivated Will. Your word make (YOU) your own savior , by you so-called “FREE WILL” (YOU) Chose to save your self by you Choices. Nothing could be further from the truth. Jesus even told the disciples they did not chose Him , but he chose them. You “Free Will ideology deals God out of the deck and give you credit for all your decision of salvation. If that were the case there would be no need for God to send Jesus would there , we could just simply chose our way to salvation. This question on “FREE WILLS” is far more important then you even begin to imagine, it is at the core of what separated us from GOD.
If Jesus could have willed his way into salvation why did he say not my Will be done but they will be done. Jesus did not rely on His WILL as you seem to do. And your are right it is Faith in GOD, but even that Faith is given and is not a matter of our wills, “FOR GOD GIVEN TO EACH A MEASURE OF FAITH”. Why should he give any measure of Faith if Our so-called “FREE WILLS” could attain to it, who needs GOD for Help. This is a great issue and not a small matter as you portray it T8. It is seriously at the core of religious beliefs and cause many to error. IMO
The question comes down to this are we saved by GOD”S Will or does He have to ask our permission through our “FREE” Wills to save us . And if by some quintessence we Chose GOD and to LOVE Him by our own (NON) influenced Wills , then as absolute “FREE” of GOD'S Powers we give Permission to Him to SAVE US. Can't you see that makes (YOU) in Charge of your salvation and pushes GOD out of the Picture. This is the exact thing Adam and Eve Were doing , wanting to be (FREE:of GOD'S influence and be a “FREE WILLER'S” apart from GOD's Will. They wanted their own Choices to rule by there own Free Wills and as a result left God and started all Humans down a course of destruction , because all have chosen to follow their own captivated Wills working through the OWN DESIRES. Scripture says “IT IS (NOT) WITHIN A MAN TO DIRECT HIS PATHS” GOD must direct and Keep us in the right paths we can not do it on our own. IMO
peace an dlove to you and yours T8………………….gene
Another wonderful post brother Gene and I hope brother T8 will accept this truth. He can not use his so called Free Will since it doesn't exist by itself. He can only choose what he was most influenced in his life.Thanks and love to you
AdamQuote (t8 @ June 19 2010,19:16) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 19 2010,03:14) T8……..”can a Ethiopian change his Skin or a Leopard His spots”, why did Christ come to set the captives Free if they were already free to change by their so-called Free Will. Trying to throw humor at this as if were senseless in foolish on your Part, and is what all who can not defend their positions do, they can't Logically explain their understandings so they throw insults at it. T8 i have ask for (ONE) Scripture that says we poses a “FREE WILL” (IN) us. again i am not saying we don't have (LIBERTY) to exercise our captivated Will.
Obviously Gene, I cannot change or utilize free will to believe your message. So trying to convert me shows that you have little faith in your own doctrine.
T8……….Just as i thought you would do, divert and opt out, failing to address what i posted . If there is error in it, then post it brother. I am more then willing to debate the issue of “FREE” WILLS.peace and love to you and yours brother…………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 20 2010,01:30) Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,19:16) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 19 2010,03:14) T8……..”can a Ethiopian change his Skin or a Leopard His spots”, why did Christ come to set the captives Free if they were already free to change by their so-called Free Will. Trying to throw humor at this as if were senseless in foolish on your Part, and is what all who can not defend their positions do, they can't Logically explain their understandings so they throw insults at it. T8 i have ask for (ONE) Scripture that says we poses a “FREE WILL” (IN) us. again i am not saying we don't have (LIBERTY) to exercise our captivated Will.
Obviously Gene, I cannot change or utilize free will to believe your message. So trying to convert me shows that you have little faith in your own doctrine.
T8……….Just as i thought you would do, divert and opt out, failing to address what i posted . If there is error in it, then post it brother. I am more then willing to debate the issue of “FREE” WILLS.peace and love to you and yours brother…………………gene
geneyou use your free will not to respond to my quote,
but use your free will to comment and request from others what you are not prepared to give,because you chose not to.
we can do what we want in our thinking (spirit)this is were we chose to fallow the spirit (will)of God or to fallow the spirit (will)of the world.our actions without a word will show to all who we serve.
Christ freed us now we can chose,two ways the world and God.
if you Gene can not chose then you are blind ,open your eyes to the truth and see.
Pierre
Terraricca………..Your getting all mixed up , where did i ever say we have (NO) choice on what we do, The question is not that we have a Choice, the question is that a “FREE” Choice FREE of ANY (INFLUENCE) You have really just agreed with me by saying What you said and don't even realize it. You said we can do what we want with our “Thinking Spirit” and that is right and what you do is a (RESULT) of that “THINKING” SPIRIT, that is what (CAUSED) you to do and say what you are saying , Nothing FREE About it.
All you and the Rest of the “FREE WILLER'S have to do is produce (ONE) Scripture that say man have a “FREE” WILL (IN) HIM. Just that simple. Have you ever wondered why you and others can not produce it< It is because there exists no such thing as a "FREE" WILL all wills are (INFLUENCED) and this influence (causes) us to WILL and do the things we do, nothing "FREE" about it. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Quote (gollamudi @ June 19 2010,21:40) Another wonderful post brother Gene and I hope brother T8 will accept this truth.
Accept it with my freedom to choose using my will, and then give up on that free will after that?Quote (Gene @ Feb. 08 2010,06:07) The humble put their Wills to death as our Lord Jesus Christ did and accept the Will of GOD. IMO
If people do not have the freedom to choose, then how are they going to humble themselves?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 20 2010,12:55) Terraricca………..Your getting all mixed up , where did i ever say we have (NO) choice on what we do, The question is not that we have a Choice, the question is that a “FREE” Choice FREE of ANY (INFLUENCE) You have really just agreed with me by saying What you said and don't even realize it. You said we can do what we want with our “Thinking Spirit” and that is right and what you do is a (RESULT) of that “THINKING” SPIRIT, that is what (CAUSED) you to do and say what you are saying , Nothing FREE About it. All you and the Rest of the “FREE WILLER'S have to do is produce (ONE) Scripture that say man have a “FREE” WILL (IN) HIM. Just that simple. Have you ever wondered why you and others can not produce it< It is because there exists no such thing as a "FREE" WILL all wills are (INFLUENCED) and this influence (causes) us to WILL and do the things we do, nothing "FREE" about it. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
geneare you try to be the influence in people mind so they may change to your views of scriptures
?even that takes a free will to do it.
Pierre
Interesting topic. Freedom to choose is not the same thing as ability to accomplish. God does overstep our free will. That is why He says to choose. We cannot save ourselves, it is a gift from God, but we can choose to receive that gift. Romans 10:9. We do choose to meet the two conditions in Romans 10:9 or we choose not to. The next choice after that is, do I want to do anything with that gift of salvation or not. God has enabled believers, ie, those that are saved, to live according the nature of that free gift of salvation. It is always our choice to do or not to do the will of God. If we ignore scripture, there is very little that God can do on our behalf. When we believe scripture, we can move mountains.
Quote (barley @ June 22 2010,11:50) Interesting topic. Freedom to choose is not the same thing as ability to accomplish. God does overstep our free will. That is why He says to choose. We cannot save ourselves, it is a gift from God, but we can choose to receive that gift. Romans 10:9. We do choose to meet the two conditions in Romans 10:9 or we choose not to. The next choice after that is, do I want to do anything with that gift of salvation or not. God has enabled believers, ie, those that are saved, to live according the nature of that free gift of salvation. It is always our choice to do or not to do the will of God. If we ignore scripture, there is very little that God can do on our behalf. When we believe scripture, we can move mountains.
It is a great post Barley, I really appreciate it and you seem to have truth with you on many concepts. Please do share more.Peace to you
AdamQuote (Gene Balthrop @ June 19 2010,19:30) Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,19:16) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 19 2010,03:14) T8……..”can a Ethiopian change his Skin or a Leopard His spots”, why did Christ come to set the captives Free if they were already free to change by their so-called Free Will. Trying to throw humor at this as if were senseless in foolish on your Part, and is what all who can not defend their positions do, they can't Logically explain their understandings so they throw insults at it. T8 i have ask for (ONE) Scripture that says we poses a “FREE WILL” (IN) us. again i am not saying we don't have (LIBERTY) to exercise our captivated Will.
Obviously Gene, I cannot change or utilize free will to believe your message. So trying to convert me shows that you have little faith in your own doctrine.
T8……….Just as i thought you would do, divert and opt out, failing to address what i posted . If there is error in it, then post it brother. I am more then willing to debate the issue of “FREE” WILLS.peace and love to you and yours brother…………………gene
Gene,Did someone say debate,
Do you and t8 want to debate about free will?
im more than willing to set this up if t8 accepts!!check out this thread
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….67;st=0I think this is a useless debate. It is just playing with words and in my opinion will just be a time waster.
We all know that we have influences and constraints, not to mention desires and all kinds of other things that are designed to make us choose these things. But the point is that these agents are useless if we have no ability to choose. We have to choose to comply in order to do anything, just as I have to choose to participate in a debate in order to comply with that.
I don't care if people think it is impossible for me to choose to debate on this subject (for example). It matters little, except to say that the worse possible outcome of believing this doctrine is making the excuse, “the Devil made me do it”, in which case proponents of of those who choose to believe that free-will doesn't exist, could make the excuse to not place blame on a person who comes up with such an excuse because he had no choice to commit the crime.
So I choose freely with my will, to debate other matters of what I choose to believe are of greater importance.
BTW, I make these choices because I can.
Question about free will,
When your alone at night, and your trying to get to the kitchen,
yet you have a simple choice, to either leave your bed through the left side or the right side,you choose one,
Is this a influenced will?
or is this free will?Good point SF.
But even two opposing influences require a choice as to which one will be your master.
Going back to your example.
What if everything in the bedroom was symmetrical and getting out of either side of the bed posed no advantage whatsoever. Would that mean that you couldn't get out of bed because you would have no influence?
Gene, you could set up this experiment yourself. Try to make getting out of either side of the bed as even as possible. When you are convinced there is no advantage, then sleep in the bed and see if you can get out of the bed. Then take a mental note as to why you got out of the bed on that particular side. If you can think of why, then eliminate that reason, and repeat the experiment. Keep doing this until you can honestly say, I got out of this side of the bed because I chose to.
It might take a month or so, but let us know how you get on.
Good arguments you brought forth brother T8. I think the example should solve the issue of Free Will altogether.
Thanks and peace to you
Adambefore answering anything Gene,
Define what Freewill is.
and than define Influenced willEditing: to add about t8 post.
assume that everything is dark, one couldnt even see where the exit would be to enter into the kitchen.
SF………..Good lets determine what is a “FREE” WILL………..First of all if we are going to use the word “FREE” we need to understand what Free means correct?… To Me it means unrestricted, uninfluenced , unaltered, in (anyway) unforced, But according to T8 and you we are being influenced , we do have desires, and there are constraints, and lusts i might add, and (these) drive our choices. So this alone destroys the word “FREE” in the Ideas of WILLS. Why do you think it says Jesus came to set the captives FREE, what are they held captive by. You both are confusing (LIBERTY) to exercise our captivated Will with us having a “FREE” WILL (IN) Us.
T8 ……..What you wrote contradicts your own idea of a WILL that is “FREE” IS:, think about it man!.
Free Will is an OXYMORON, because (NO) WILL is “FREE” , or there would simply be NO WILL at all. God Will is the product of Council. For He does all things after the Council of His WILL. God give us LIBERTY to use our captivated Wills in our lives. Out of all the babbling about a “FREE” Will , NO ONE HAS PRODUCED ONE SCRIPTURE THAT SAY MAN HAS A “FREE” WILL (IN) him. IMO
love and peace…………………….gene
barley……..Welcome to the site…………..remember, we chose as a result of Faith, as you say, however that faith is a gift of GOD and that causes us to Chose . It says “Unto each has been (Given) a measure of faith”. And also remember Jesus said (NO) Man (CAN) come unto me unless the Father (draw) Him. No one will chose Gods way by his own so-called “FREE” Will, we are compiled to chose GOD by HIS effectual working Spirit in us. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
But people also have destructive desires too. So even if God gives a measure of faith, we also have a measure of carnality.
But God is not unjust. Just as he said “When the enemy comes in like a flood I will pour our my Spirit”, he seems to counter the enemy so that we are not overwhelmed, in order for us to be able to choose fairly.
That is why we can be judged. Because we then become responsible for our decisions.
Quote (t8 @ June 23 2010,15:37) But people also have destructive desires too. So even if God gives a measure of faith, we also have a measure of carnality. But God is not unjust. Just as he said “When the enemy comes in like a flood I will pour our my Spirit”, he seems to counter the enemy so that we are not overwhelmed, in order for us to be able to choose fairly.
That is why we can be judged. Because we then become responsible for our decisions.
t8very good comment ,well said.
i hope some will understand itPierre
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 22 2010,21:00) SF………..Good lets determine what is a “FREE” WILL………..First of all if we are going to use the word “FREE” we need to understand what Free means correct?… To Me it means unrestricted, uninfluenced , unaltered, in (anyway) unforced, But according to T8 and you we are being influenced , we do have desires, and there are constraints, and lusts i might add, and (these) drive our choices. So this alone destroys the word “FREE” in the Ideas of WILLS. Why do you think it says Jesus came to set the captives FREE, what are they held captive by. You both are confusing (LIBERTY) to exercise our captivated Will with us having a “FREE” WILL (IN) Us. T8 ……..What you wrote contradicts your own idea of a WILL that is “FREE” IS:, think about it man!.
Free Will is an OXYMORON, because (NO) WILL is “FREE” , or there would simply be NO WILL at all. God Will is the product of Council. For He does all things after the Council of His WILL. God give us LIBERTY to use our captivated Wills in our lives. Out of all the babbling about a “FREE” Will , NO ONE HAS PRODUCED ONE SCRIPTURE THAT SAY MAN HAS A “FREE” WILL (IN) him. IMO
love and peace…………………….gene
T8 and Gene,You see this is what i see,
I see that Gene has a different interpretation of Free will.I see Free will, as a choice that doesnt depend on somone else controlling my choices.
My choice can be influenced by others or even manipulated if im stupid enough. but In the end im responsible for what i do. People can be influneced but we can make choices based on our own desires or dreams. which is not influence but our own agenda.
Our desire is based on our own set purpose or vision.I think freewill is a choice that one can make without God forceing you. Because his will is perfect, and is narrow, Freewill is the act of making any choice.
Going back to the example.
Gene,
leaving the bed in the middle of the night, when it is dark, from the left or the right side, isinfluenced will
or freewill?t8 personally i think gene agrees with us, but his only problem is with the word not the idea behind it.
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