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Quote (Ed J @ June 02 2010,08:44) Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 02 2010,08:30) Can you answer the following? 1) Where do people extract their choices?
2) Are choices not made out of prior influences and experiences?
3) Choices are DEPENDENT upon factors, many of which the individual has no control over.
3) A) So how does that make a persons choice free?4) Would you say that a person's choice of what they are going to eat for dinner is completely and utterly free, or is it dependent upon several different factors?
Hi Jodi,OK; if you seek agreement!
1) Many places.
2) Sometimes.
3) Name some?
3) A) Explain what you mean?4) A person can hardly choose some kind of food they never heard of before, even though it may be available to them.
So they would not be “Free” to make a choice that they were unaware of.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Jodi,I answered all your questions. What no response?
Who is your will held captive by?God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ June 07 2010,02:17) T8…….Good let look at what your have said. (IF) we confess our sins, Now consider why you even would (confess) your sins. Is it because You Just out of the (BLUE) decided to confess them, or was it because Something (IN) you (Influencing) you to do that. Remember if we are going to trout the word “FREE” WILL (nothing can be (influencing) it or it simply would not be “FREE”, now would it. We are (CAUSED) to do what we do, by our (captivated) Wills hardly “FREE” at all. People get (LIBERTY) to exercise their (captivated Wills) mixed up whit then Possessing a “FREE” WILL.
T8, i maintain the term “FREE” WILL being (IN) a person is nowhere (IN) Scripture, if So Produce it.
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Gene. There are many influences but we choose freely which influence will influence us.e.g., Do we choose to obey the influence of the flesh or the Spirit?
That is why we are able to be judged, because we can choose. Otherwise we would not be responsible.
Adam and Eve had free will to choose to eat either from the Tree of Life or the Tree of Good and Evil.
God influenced them to eat from the tree of life and not the tree of good and evil. The Devil influenced them to eat from the latter.
They then had a choice which is what having a free will is about. Do we choose God's will or another will. That is free choice.
And yes there are influences. But we are free to choose which ones will actually influence us.
You are wrong brother T8,
God had influenced Adam and Eve on both ways not alone one way that is the tree of life but also the tree of knowledge to know good and evil.Peace to you
AdamQuote (Gene Balthrop @ June 08 2010,00:49) Terraricca……..Again you speak what you do not understand IMO, You say (willing) of (unwilling) where is the word “FREE” “WILLING” at. A Will rather Willing or Unwilling is not a “FREE” Will is it? Just Produce (ONE) Scripture that say Man Has a “FREE” WILL (IN) HIM. I have yet to see you or anyone else produce that scripture even though you trout that false teaching around. IMO peace and love…………………..gene
genei have ask you many times were are your scriptures to show that will and willing are force opon all of us by God
show me were
Pierre
Quote (gollamudi @ June 14 2010,15:52) You are wrong brother T8,
God had influenced Adam and Even on both ways not alone one way that is the tree of life but also the tree of knowledge to know good and evil.Peace to you
Adam
Gollif i show you a bill of $1000. dollars and ask you to do what i want you to do for me (something no good )this is influence
but it does not force you to take the money in any way it will be your decision to do it or not.
Pierre
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 08 2010,00:49) Terraricca……..Again you speak what you do not understand IMO, You say (willing) of (unwilling) where is the word “FREE” “WILLING” at. A Will rather Willing or Unwilling is not a “FREE” Will is it? Just Produce (ONE) Scripture that say Man Has a “FREE” WILL (IN) HIM. I have yet to see you or anyone else produce that scripture even though you trout that false teaching around. IMO peace and love…………………..gene
Hi Gene,Right here… But you will probably reject this due to your (NOT Free) captive will!
1 Cor.9:17-19 For if I do this thing “willingly”, I have a reward: but if against my will,
a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. What is my reward then? Verily that,
when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power
in the gospel. For though I be “free” from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that
I might gain the more. (Mark 10:42-45)God bless
Ed J (Eccl.9:16)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgGood scripture Ed J.
But those who disagree with free will have chosen freely to disagree that there is no free will.
Scripture might not be enough to sway them to choose otherwise.
We will see if they can exercise their ability to choose.
Quote (gollamudi @ June 14 2010,15:52) You are wrong brother T8,
God had influenced Adam and Even on both ways not alone one way that is the tree of life but also the tree of knowledge to know good and evil.Peace to you
Adam
And according to your doctrine, who is influencing me for not agreeing with you?Also, if you are right, then it is not my fault if I can't freely choose what to believe.
@ gollamudi
How am I suppose to choose freely to believe what you are saying if you are saying that I cannot even do that because I can't choose freely?
Why even bother to convince me if I cannot choose to believe you?
Quote (t8 @ June 14 2010,18:47) @ gollamudi How am I suppose to choose freely to believe what you are saying if you are saying that I cannot even do that because I can't choose freely?
Why even bother to convince me if I cannot choose to believe you?
Hi brother T8,
Thanks again for your responses above. Yes, you are right in saying that you have right to choose not believe what I say here. But the problem here is not that we have complete free will but a biased will which is the result of our own understanding on the data fed to us from various sources. That is what brother Gene often brings our here that we have 'will' surely due to the results of cause and effects. I don't think we can call it a real 'free will'. If God had not drawn you to Him you could have not used your free will and come to Him as you wish. No brother no… it is big blunder on Christianity which created so many myths like this including Trinity, Preexistence, virgin birth, human sacrifice, bodily resurrection etc.Peace and love to you
AdamQuote (t8 @ June 14 2010,18:43) Good scripture Ed J. But those who disagree with free will have chosen freely to disagree that there is no free will.
Scripture might not be enough to sway them to choose otherwise.
We will see if they can exercise their ability to choose.
Hi T8,Once people make up their mind 'a preponderance of evidence' doesn't seem to matter to much at that point.
Take Stuart, almost everyone here has said something to him, his eyes yet are closed as his avatar suggests.
And then there's BD, what a story we have there, I have been knocking over his house of cards for months now.
But like it says in the 'hadiths' regroup and mount your attack allah is behind you for victory(something like that).
No matter how low there brought, the bottom is always lower; truly this is the meaning of the bottomless pit!
(Rev.9:11)
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (gollamudi @ June 14 2010,20:39) Hi brother T8,
Thanks again for your responses above. Yes, you are right in saying that you have right to choose not believe what I say here. But the problem here is not that we have complete free will but a biased will which is the result of our own understanding on the data fed to us from various sources. That is what brother Gene often brings our here that we have 'will' surely due to the results of cause and effects. I don't think we can call it a real 'free will'. If God had not drawn you to Him you could have not used your free will and come to Him as you wish. No brother no… it is big blunder on Christianity which created so many myths like this including Trinity, Preexistence, virgin birth, human sacrifice, bodily resurrection etc.Peace and love to you
Adam
The fact remains we are free to choose.Look, all things provoke, entice, lead, promote, influence.
That is all things.
So now that we have that out of the way, it is up to us what we choose.
We can choose to serve God, Satan, our stomach, our wallet, our selfish ambition, our boss, our friends, mankind in general.
All things have some kind of influence, otherwise what is the point in their existence?
I think this argument is just getting silly. It is obvious that we can choose from differing influences. The fact remains we are free to choose and that is why we are accountable for our actions and every words we speak.
No excuses. We had the choice.
Now God draws men to himself, yes, and so the flesh draws men to destruction.
But it is up to us whom or what we will serve.
It is our choice and there is no point in pretending that we cannot choose freely among things of influence.You know sometimes I have even chosen to not do the thing I wanted to do the most (at the time), because I knew it was wrong. I didn't really desire not to do it, but that I knew it was right not to. I still chose to not do that which I wanted to do. You can still win against overwhelming influence, if you have an alternative to turn to. Even sometimes a grain of faith can win over a tree of sin. Our choices are extremely important. It is almost the one thing that we own and it affects our destiny.
Quote (t8 @ June 14 2010,22:28) You know sometimes I have even chosen to not do the thing I wanted to do the most (at the time), because I knew it was wrong. I didn't really desire not to do it, but that I knew it was right not to. I still chose to not do that which I wanted to do. You can still win against overwhelming influence, if you have an alternative to turn to. Even sometimes a grain of faith can win over a tree of sin. Our choices are extremely important. It is almost the one thing that we own and it affects our destiny.
This is where the fact lies brother T8,
Even Paul said it right in Romans 7 he could not do what he wanted to do but did what did not want to do. what does that mean? Is it free will or forced or influenced will? This is where I and brother Gene differ with most of you here. Most of You still hold to your ideas. You see the definition of Free will no where it is said that 'inlfuenced will' is equalent to 'Free Will'. If you want here is the definition;“Free will is the purported ability of agents to make choices free from constraints. Historically, the constraint of dominant concern has been the metaphysical constraint of determinism. The opposing positions within that debate are metaphysical libertarianism, the claim that determinism is false and thus that free will exists; and hard determinism, the claim that determinism is true and thus that free will does not exist” taken from Wikipedia.
Please think over
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ June 14 2010,23:02) This is where the fact lies brother T8, Even Paul said it right in Romans 7 he could not do what he wanted to do but did what did not want to do. what does that mean?
Please think over
Adam
Hi Adam,That's easy to answer, fat people don't want to eat fattening foods and be fat.
But they eat and eat and eat, and then feel horrible that there FAT FAT FAT.
The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak! Do you now understand; Adam?God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ June 14 2010,16:14) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 08 2010,00:49) Terraricca……..Again you speak what you do not understand IMO, You say (willing) of (unwilling) where is the word “FREE” “WILLING” at. A Will rather Willing or Unwilling is not a “FREE” Will is it? Just Produce (ONE) Scripture that say Man Has a “FREE” WILL (IN) HIM. I have yet to see you or anyone else produce that scripture even though you trout that false teaching around. IMO peace and love…………………..gene
Hi Gene,Right here… But you will probably reject this due to your (NOT Free) captive will!
1 Cor.9:17-19 For if I do this thing “willingly”, I have a reward: but if against my will,
a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. What is my reward then? Verily that,
when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power
in the gospel. For though I be “free” from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that
I might gain the more. (Mark 10:42-45)God bless
Ed J (Eccl.9:16)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
ED J……….No where in this is it indicated we have a so-called “FREE WILL” (IN) us. We are given (LIBERTY) to exercise our (captivated will) these are our desires driven by a predetermined mind that has acquired its information from past associations and understandings, it is a predisposed Will that work in All. The term “FREE WILL” is an Oxymoron, it simply would not be a WILL if it were “FREE”, Just common sense should tell us this. What do you think It means that He (Jesus) came to set the (captives) free means?. Man is held captive by his false understandings and lust causing him to WILL or desire things that are not right, far from a “FREE WILL” working In him. Think about it.peace and love…………………….gene
Quote (t8 @ June 14 2010,22:28) Look, all things provoke, entice, lead, promote, influence. That is all things.
So now that we have that out of the way, it is up to us what we choose.
T8……..What do you mean, ” now that we have that out of the way”? That is the issue here It Shows that our WILL are totally (INFLUENCED) YOU have answered you question about you WILL. it is a INFLUENCED WILL hardly “FREE” At all. GET IT! That is what we are talking about. Yes we have (LIBERTY) from GOD to exercise our Captivated WILL to a point, But having that liberty does (NOT) equal to Having a FREE WILL (IN) us. Think about it man!peace and love to you and yours………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 15 2010,00:45) Quote (Ed J @ June 14 2010,16:14) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 08 2010,00:49) Terraricca……..Again you speak what you do not understand IMO, You say (willing) of (unwilling) where is the word “FREE” “WILLING” at. A Will rather Willing or Unwilling is not a “FREE” Will is it? Just Produce (ONE) Scripture that say Man Has a “FREE” WILL (IN) HIM. I have yet to see you or anyone else produce that scripture even though you trout that false teaching around. IMO peace and love…………………..gene
Hi Gene,Right here… But you will probably reject this due to your (NOT Free) captive will!
1 Cor.9:17-19 For if I do this thing “willingly”, I have a reward: but if against my will,
a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. What is my reward then? Verily that,
when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power
in the gospel. For though I be “free” from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that
I might gain the more. (Mark 10:42-45)God bless
Ed J (Eccl.9:16)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
ED J……….No where in this is it indicated we have a so-called “FREE WILL” (IN) us. We are given (LIBERTY) to exercise our (captivated will) these are our desires driven by a predetermined mind that has acquired its information from past associations and understandings, it is a predisposed Will that work in All. The term “FREE WILL” is an Oxymoron, it simply would not be a WILL if it were “FREE”, Just common sense should tell us this. What do you think It means that He (Jesus) came to set the (captives) free means?. Man is held captive by his false understandings and lust causing him to WILL or desire things that are not right, far from a “FREE WILL” working In him. Think about it.peace and love…………………….gene
Hi Gene,As this Bible verse correctly states…
Prov.23:6-7 Eat thou not the bread of him that hath an evil eye, neither desire
thou his dainty meats: For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:
Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.
I agree, your 'will' is 'NOT Free' and definitely held captive!I on the other hand possess a “Free Will” not encumbered by what yours is held captive by!
The food you offer me (which is merely 'your' opinion), I refuse out of my “Free Will” to do so!
You offer 'your' repeated opinion, and I have offered many many of God's Bible verses to you.You telling me 'your opinion' over and over doesn't make it become true through repetition.
This is the 'tactic' that BD also implements, and it hasn't been working to well for him either.Ed J (Isaiah 54:17)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgED J……. You cant even understand what you Just quoted ED J, (SO a man thinks so he (IS)> Where does it say anything about Him having a “FREE WILL” There, a Man thinks according to His knowledge just as you do. You accuse me of what you yourself are doing, and you have failed show us (JUST ONE SCRIPTURE) that say there is a “FREE WILL” (IN) Man or even GOD FOR that Matter. Your lie about you producing proof is nothing but a LIE, From YOU own deluded and CAPTIVATED WILL> .
And what Spirit are you from, seeing you set out to be a (ACCUSER) of others and present yourself as someone who (OPINIONS) are more valuable then others here. You are welcome to have Opinions but others are just as welcome to have there also. Your are not one ounce more creditable then others > Not matter how many numbers you think mean something which in fact mean nothing. IMO
Quote (Ed J @ June 15 2010,00:00) Quote (gollamudi @ June 14 2010,23:02) This is where the fact lies brother T8, Even Paul said it right in Romans 7 he could not do what he wanted to do but did what did not want to do. what does that mean?
Please think over
Adam
Hi Adam,That's easy to answer, fat people don't want to eat fattening foods and be fat.
But they eat and eat and eat, and then feel horrible that there FAT FAT FAT.
The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak! Do you now understand; Adam?God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi brother Ed J,
That shows you are led by your flesh which means influenced will but no “Free Will”. Hence the matter ends here.
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