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Quote (t8 @ May 04 2008,00:11) God offers salvation but we choose whether to accept it. God doesn't force salvation on humanity. He allows them to reject him if they want.
t8……I would have to disagree with you on this point, God does not offer salvation, He causes salvation, it's as much a creation as man himself is. ” fore you are (CREATED) unto good works”, and again for you are saved by GRACE and that not of yourselves it is a gift of GOD, and again ” no man (CAN) come unto me unless the Father drag Him”. God doesn't force salvation he simply creates it and drags us to it.One of the biggest problems we have is understanding the meaning of the word (GRACE), most think grace is (unmerited pardon), and obviously that is implied, but the true meaning is God's influencing on you. It says's Jesus was a (MAN) full of Grace. He didn't sin , so he didn't to be forgiven anything did he, so we see hear GRACE meant God's influence or working in his life.
Paul said he worked more then all the rest, then went on to say YET NOT I< but the GRACE of God WORKED in me. Another words God was doing the work in Paul causing him to do the things He was doing.
Man wants to think He is the determiner of His destiny but the fact are he isn't and never was, and thank God for that. T8 there is no so called (FREE WILL) period, all things are the result of Cause and Effect.
peace to you and yours brother………………gene
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 04 2008,03:11) Quote (t8 @ May 04 2008,00:11) God offers salvation but we choose whether to accept it. God doesn't force salvation on humanity. He allows them to reject him if they want.
Gene's ideas are that God “causes” us towards the acceptance of salvation. In essence, we are not in control of this “cause and effect” cycle. What do you think, t8?
Mandy…… You got absolute right, God is the cause and Salvation is the result. God said ” (I) will take out of them the stony heart and give them a heart of Fresh, and again the gentiles who have not the law (But) do the thing contained in them show the Laws of Gd written on their Hearts (BY) the Hand of GOD.What i thing sometimes what we don't understand is there is (ONLY) one perfect way and Will. Everyone can't have a separate perfect WILL only God the Father Has that, and He is conforming all of us to that perfect will that has always existed.
Man wants to believe he is the captain of his ship, but he isn't, God is. We are all his workmanship (CREATED) unto good works. cause and effect at work in the Hand of our Heavenly Father.
Everyone who thinks He is the captain of His destiny will enter into sever Judgments (fiery trails) with God and then he will know who's the captain is.
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 04 2008,08:05) Not3in1,May wrote:[quote=t8,May 04 2008,00:11]God offers salvation but we choose whether to accept it.
Mandy…… You got absolute right, God is the cause and Salvation is the result. God said ” (I) will take out of them the stony heart and give them a heart of Fresh, and again the gentiles who have not the law (But) do the thing contained in them show the Laws of Gd written on their Hearts (BY) the Hand of GOD.
What i thing sometimes what we don't understand is there is (ONLY) one perfect way and Will. Everyone can't have a separate perfect WILL only God the Father Has that, and He is conforming all of us to that perfect will that has always existed.
Man wants to believe he is the captain of his ship, but he isn't, God is. We are all his workmanship (CREATED) unto good works. cause and effect at work in the Hand of our Heavenly Father.
Everyone who thinks He is the captain of His destiny will enter into sever Judgments (fiery trails) with God and then he will know who's the captain is.
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Hi brother Gene,
What a wonderful post on free will. It is only one perfect will that is of the Father our God because of which you and me are here in this state.
May God continue to bless you with His (free) will.
AdamAdam……….once we understand that every persons actions is a matter of cause and effect, it becomes easy to forgive them, because you understand they are only doing what was installed in them through their lives. We are all held captive by our thoughts and we act them out and the greater the influence of good or evil is in a person that is what they will do.
The carnal mind (the mind we are born with), is a enemy of God, it's not subject to the laws of God neither indeed can be. So it exists in hostility to God. But the question is, is it their fault their that way, no it is not their fault, it is simply whats in them. God takes full responsibility for all sin or He would not have forgiven it. For Christ died for the sin of not just Us but the sins of the whole world, just as it says.
For God has concluded all under sin that He might have mercy on (ALL). And He has forgive ALL through the blood of (HIS) Sacrificed Lamb, Jesus. Having therefore been redeemed by His offering we (WILL)All be saved from wrath.
YET AS BY FIRE (intense Judgments) of God .For this reason Jesus said forgive and it will be forgiven you. Thats a blanket statement and applies to no matter what the sin is. Once we see a person is the product of there thinking and will do whats in there heart it becomes easy to forgive, because you realize they can only do whats in them is a result of their past and present learning.
Jesus came not to condemn the world, Why because their is nothing to Condemn, because all is of God and Allowed By Him, and all will be saved by Him also, Because it's his will that NON PARISH.
Even the most vile of Humans are driven by causes that effect their lives, But look what Paul Said, He was the worst of all sinners because He persecuted the Church of God and He did even having some killed. But what happened when God moved on Him, a completely new Paul. And Paul concluded if God can do that for Him He can do it for anyone.
We need to be more forgiving to all and that includes me also.
peace and love to you and yours…………..gene
Oh! my brother Gene, I am really moved by the Spirit of God as I read your post above.
What a wonderful God we have who is in full control of our lives. There is nothing to worry when we are in His safe hands.
Your explanation about the evil others do to us is really amazing. How can we hate our brother after knowing the cause and affects in their lives?
May God continue to strengthen you with His wisdom to interpret scriptures well in these last days.
Peace to you
AdamHi,
There is no such thing as complete freedom of any person's will or God would not be God.
God is in control of all facets of all lives and He gives grace to some to respond to His call.Nick……..you got that right, there is no such thing as (FREE WILL) everything is the product of cause and effect. Including our conversion and forgiveness and even our repentance is all caused by ONE GOD (The Father.) Who is in control of all things that exists in heaven and in earth.
peace to you and yours………….gene
Hi,
If you set out to assassinate someone and it was not in the acceptable will of God that he dies will you succeed?Gene..ok..lemme respond
True, God did predict the course of certain individuals, such as Jacob and Esau. But this was not predestination. In the case of Esau and Jacob, God simply foreknew which of the national groups descending from them would gain dominance over the other. However, there is no indication that God had fixed their eternal destinies. Much of a child’s general disposition and temperament appear to be shaped by genetic factors. Jehovah may have considered the genetic makeup of unborn Esau and Jacob in determining which son would dominate.—Compare Psalm 139:14-16.
Similarly, Jehovah used his foreknowledge regarding Samson, Jeremiah and John the Baptizer. This foreknowledge, however, did not guarantee that they would remain faithful until death. God also foretold that one of David’s sons would be named Solomon and that Solomon would be used to build the temple. (1 Chronicles 22:9, 10) Solomon, nevertheless, fell into apostasy in his later years.—1 Kings 11:4, 9-13.
You mentioned Judas Iscariot did you not. Was not the traitorous course of one of Jesus’ disciples clearly prophesied in advance you say? Yes, but the prophecies did not specify which disciple would be the betrayer. Indeed, what if Jesus had known that Judas would be the betrayer? Then Jesus’ appointing Judas as an apostle would have made Him a “sharer” in that betrayer’s sins. (Compare 1 Timothy 5:22.) God himself would also be an accomplice, since Jesus preceded his selection of Judas with fervent prayer to Jehovah.—Luke 6:12-16.
He knew that Satan the Devil had previously used a man’s close friend as a betrayer, as he had done in the case of David’s friend Ahithophel. Therefore, it was Satan, not God, who “put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray” Jesus Christ. (John 13:2; 2 Samuel 15:31) Rather than resisting satanic influence, Judas allowed sin to gain the mastery over him. And at some point Jesus was able to read Judas’ heart and therefore foretell his betrayal. (John 13:10, 11) Thus Jesus knew of Judas’ betrayal “from the beginning”—not of his acquaintance with Judas, but from the “beginning” of that one’s acting treacherously.—John 6:64.
The apostle Paul told fellow anointed Christians: “We were foreordained according to the purpose of him who operates all things according to the way his will counsels.” (Ephesians 1:11) Since man’s fall into sin, it has been God’s purpose to vindicate His name by means of His Kingdom. To that end, God has at times used his ability to foresee the future. For instance, he foreordained that there would be a people who would be joint heirs with Jesus Christ in the Kingdom, although individuals must prove faithful to be part of it.—2 Peter 1:10, 11.
If this doctrine were true, it would mean that God foreknew all that would result from his creating man—the deflection of Adam and Eve, the wars, the crime, the immorality, the oppression, the lying, the hypocrisy, the disease. By speaking the words, “Let us make man,” then, God deliberately would have been setting all this wickedness in motion
God’s placing before Adam and Eve the prospect of everlasting life would, therefore, have been a sham. So would the Bible’s invitation, “Let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.”—Revelation 22:17.
Matthew 22:14- 14 “For there are many invited, but few chosen.”
: “You know that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, as a ransom that you were released from your fruitless form of conduct received by tradition from your forefathers. But it was with precious blood, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, even Christ’s.” (1 Pet. 1:18, 19, NW; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14; Heb. 9:12; Rev. 5:9) With his blood Christ buys them and they become his. He is their owner. To them it is written: “You do not belong to yourselves, for you were bought with a price.” (1 Cor. 6:19, 20; 7:23, NW) According to predestinarian teaching, if Christ has redeemed them, released them, purchased them, become their owner, they could never fall away. But the Bible says they can, and some do: “These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will turn out of the way and follow their acts of loose conduct.” “But as for them, the judgment of ancient times is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering.”—2 Pet. 2:1-3, NW.
From another post..same topic
Hi DK,
I think you have already seen the responses of Gene in the topic “eternal torment”.
Whatever the examples you quoted like “many are called few are chosen” there is the point God has chosen us not that we have used our so called free wills and came to God. You are wrong in interpretation of scriptures. See the in-depth study what Gene has put forth there is nothing like free will given to man the creature.to all…….I contend that there is not such thing as (FREE WILL) all choices are the product of cause and effect. A man is caused to be saved by (ONE) TRUE GOD, who effects our minds in such a way it causes us to go to Jesus Christ. Jesus said “NO man (CAN) come to me (UNLESS) the Father (DRAG) him.” There are many who will come to Jesus though and say lord in your name we did all these great works but what was the answer, depart from me you worker of iniquity I know you not.
Did Jesus say they didn't do great works, (NO HE DID NOT) say they didn't do them, but said they were workers of iniquity, whats Iniquity? What does the bible mean when it says thy sins (and) thy iniquities . So we see there is a true going to Jesus and a false going to him. The true ones are those who are brought by God the Father to Christ Jesus.
MY opinion of what a iniquity is , it's some thing that a person thinks is right but in fact is wrong, these people thought they were doing God's will but really weren't. They did great works in Jesus name, but were totally deceived.
The self decision to go to Jesus on your own without being drawn by the Father is Just your own works and takes a form of Godliness but denies the power thereof. And many have that form and denies the power of God , How by thinking it was there (own) (FREE WILL) that brought about their there acceptance of Christ.
The only true conversion is the one GOD the Father Performs, causes , and brings about. The only way you can tell if the person is truly converted is by the sound of the Spirit at work in the person, that the same way Jesus Knows His sheep. And not ONE that the Father brings to Him Will He loose, Because His sheep (KNOW)(recognize) his voice and will not follow another false Sheppard.
peace to you all who are called and chosen,…………gene
Amen my brother Gene,
What an excellent post on free will?
Do continue to reveal the hidden truth of God.
Thanks
AdamDk….. I have written a lot on so called (FREE WILL) there is no such thing as free will, thats an oxymoron because all things are the result of cause and effect. This conforms to all science and Psychological evidence. Nothing takes place with out a cause and that includes our salvation.. We do not go to Jesus on our own, Jesus said no man can come to me unless the Father drag him. Satan does not want you to think that God will absolutely save you no matter what, so He came up with this idea You have self destination which is controll by your own “FREE WILL”, a pure lie. “For He (GOD) works in us (BOTH) to (WILL) and do HIS PLEASURE”and again ” know ye not that you are saved by the grace of God and that not of yourself.”, and again “for we are (HIS) workmanship created unto good works, Jesus said only one will was to be done and it wasn't our will is was GOD”S WILL >
Thats one of the reasons why i believe everyone will eventually be saved and it has nothing to do with Mans so called (FREE WILL) but only Gods Will. Because God is the Only one i believe who has FREE WILL. No one else does.
If you can understand GOD is able to get inside you and cause you to respond they way he wants, then your confidence in Him will grow.Peace brother ………..gene
Hi Gene:
If what you are saying is true, what does God mean by the following scriptures:
Quote Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.And,
Quote 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance
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