- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 07 2010,19:54) Quote (peace2all @ Jan. 07 2010,11:30) jesus had god's divine nature and was sinless in nature also. he only saw and spoke and did what only god can.
he could not be tempted or sin because he was in complete unity with god.
the very nature of jesus is constant tht the unity is deep, yet some want to past him as this seperate individual in every possible way and thats not so.
sepereate in role and distinction but not in nature and word or spirit.
What do you think divine means to a monotheistic Hebrew?
all i know is people either say he is only man or that he is god's son who is not in any way in untiy with the father except for listening to his father.bible clealy tells otherwise.
i've been saying tht jesus is different in role and distinct person but is in unity with god in nature,word and spirit.
jesus clearly said he can only do what the fathers will is, that he is the visible example of the invisible god.
he clearly is worshiped and called god and eternal father and prince of peace and never disputes his unity with god as being more than a spereate entitiy with no unity at all.
he never corrects these worships or praise, he glorifys himself with god even though god shares that with no one unless it is unto himself.
he is a part of god more than people want to accept.
he is as the scriptures say , the word of god. it is from god that he was manifest via his spirit and given his spirit to be shown as the annointed king of isreal and to do only that god can because its all god knows.
jesus can't do the things the father wouldn't or can't do because he is true in nature,spirit and words.
he is not seperate as a man and his son are. those are illistrations for man to see the communication and role of each.
this is more than god speaking to a prophet and giving orders , this is god creating from his sprit a example of himself and filled wth his spirit giving him complete unity in nature,spirit,words.
its not the invisible god inhabiting jesus but what makes him up is. i think thats what people don't see, when one speaks of unity.
god has come to be seen to man as he has many times and talked to them. he has clearly been in two places at once.
this is no different except that it was done to show how physically to do gods will instead of it just as a written word.
the words written by god as law couldn't even get a handful of his people to listen, by god visibly showing them, he has now united people across the world to his ways.
if he chooses to fulfill his prophecies in this manner than so be it, things will come to be as foretold and only god knows how to do it and when.
that sinless perfect person cleansed us from eternal sin handed from adam, we now had a chance to repent and follow his ways and be able to have a chance in his kingdom.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 07 2010,15:31) Quote (peace2all @ Jan. 07 2010,14:17) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 07 2010,13:55) Hi P2A,
Indeed the Son of God was filled with fullness of the Spirit of his God at the Jordan becoming united with Him. Then he began his ministry empowered by God's Spirit.[acts 10.38, lk4, Jn3, Jn14, Jn17]
but his spirit is what was placed there.mary was virgin.
i see you had a post about dinosaurs and creation times
you said that god could have tested out different animals before starting adam & eve and that yuo said to someone that we don't know wht god thinks or does and that why does he need to be a boring god …etc.
so why then do you close you eyes to a way that god can use himself to communicate to us.
scriptures point out that it was so.
one god is only worshiped as almighty, only one path that leads to his kingdom, only one source is responsible for all.
keep your faith alive inside.
Hi p2a,
So you say but scripture says in several places that he was conceived of the Holy Spirit.He was only active by the power of the Spirit after his anointing at the Jordan.
Before then his neighbours noted nothing different about him and his only advantage shown was his wisdom and knowledge of scripture at the age of 12.
Try Acts 10.38
nick, scriptures say that after the spirit of god fell unto him he remembered who he was and where he came from.before that he had no clue and lead a normal life.
Jodi Lee said:
Quote Are you saying that you believe some Spirit Son decided to come to earth acting upon himself and become a servant?
Uh no!
Jodi Lee:
Quote Not only did Jesus not send himself, but what was SENT was in fact the PROMISED Christ, not a pre-existent being was sent to become Christ, but the person who YHVH promised He would send Jesus Christ was sent.
Where did I say that Jesus sent Himself? I have consistently maintained that Jesus was sent as a volunteer. I have repeatedly said that He acted upon Himself and became a servant and that He did not have to come (Philippians 2).Are misrepresentations all the argument you have left? Was Jesus less than Isaiah who said, “Lord, here I am send me?”
Jodi Lee:
Quote Exodus 31:3 And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
There you go again! You continue to view Jesus in the days of His flesh and insist that all that was true of Him then is true of Him now. Yes Jesus was anointed by the Spirit in the days of flesh and was under the Spirit's guidance. But the Spirit is subject to the exalted Jesus and glorifies the exalted Jesus:
Quote 5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
Please note:1. Jesus sends the Spirit, vs. 7
2. The Spirit will not speak on His own authority but speaks ONLY what Jesus gives Him to speak, vs. 13
3. The Spirit glorifies Jesus, vs. 14
4. The Spirit takes what belongs to Jesus (“what is mine”) and declares it to His disciples, vs. 15
This surely looks like a ROLE REVERSAL to me ! !
It is not necessary to answer your post in its entirety for I have shown that you cut n' paste the scriptures to support your Arain views.
Jodi Lee:
Quote We bow to Jesus for with all he was GIVEN by the Father, he did not use it for his own gain, he did not become puffed up in pride like so many other men, instead he was a servant unto us, even to his own death. Because of THIS, not because Jesus pre-existed in some form, but because of what he accomplished as a man through the Spirit of the Father, he was EXALTED.
No one has said that Jesus was exalted because He pre-existed in some form. Trinitarians universally maintain that Jesus was exalted because of His obedience. But this does not mean that He did not pre-exist. Paul CLEARLY says that He existed in “God's form” prior to His taking the form of a servant, and that He did not cling to that but was made in the likeness of men. And being found in fashion as a man He humbled Himself and became obedient to death. Therefore, God has highly exalted Him.You're trying to have it both ways. You confess that Jesus was exalted yet you believe He is still a servant and under the Spirit's direction. In this way you really deny that He was exalted. I have shown that Jesus in His exalted state directs the Spirit (John 16:5-15).
I have shown many times before that “ALL authority” in reference to Jesus means exactly that! His authority extends to the point that He may reveal the Father to whomsoever He wills.
“All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”
You say that you “bow” to Jesus for what He has done. Can you bow to Him for choosing to reveal the Father to you according to His own will? Matthew 11:27
thinker
thinker…………Paul did not say He (preexisted before his berth) that is you trinitarian addition, in fact if you look up the word existed you will find it is (existing) present tense , not a past tense as (existed) would imply. Check it out.
Quote (Gene @ Jan. 07 2010,12:37) thinker…………Paul did not say He (preexisted before his berth) that is you trinitarian addition, in fact if you look up the word existed you will find it is (existing) present tense , not a past tense as (existed) would imply. Check it out.
GeneWould Jesus tell us that he came down from heaven if this is not the case?
There is no wiggle room in the following scriptures. Jesus was speaking in plain English.
Jn 6:38
For *I CAME DOWN* FROM HEAVEN, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.Jn 6:41
The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, “I am the bread which *came down from heaven*“.Jn 6:42
And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, *I came down* from heaven?Jn 6:51
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven“: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.And to make sure that they fully understood what he was saying, he goes on to say…
Jn 6:
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, “Doth this offend you“?62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man *ASCEND UP WHERE HE WAS BEFORE“?
And what about these…
Heb 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:Jn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which *I had with thee* before the world was.You could read these scriptures to a 5 year old and they would come to the same conclusion that Jesus existed before he came in the flesh and came down from heaven.
But of course today just like then, many are offended by his words.
These scriptures do not need any special interpretation!
The writers of the scriptures clearly stated what they heard under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit!
WJ
Quote (Gene @ Jan. 08 2010,04:37) thinker…………Paul did not say He (preexisted before his berth) that is you trinitarian addition, in fact if you look up the word existed you will find it is (existing) present tense , not a past tense as (existed) would imply. Check it out.
Gene,
Paul said that Jesus existed in God's form and then He BECAME in the form of a man. What does this tell you?Do the math guy!
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 08 2010,04:22) You're trying to have it both ways. You confess that Jesus was exalted yet you believe He is still a servant and under the Spirit's direction.
thinker
Hi ThinkingMan,We are presented with yet another very interesting yes/no dichotomy.
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 06 2010,13:54) If you are not going to make an attempt to show half intelligence I will not continue to indulge you.
thinker
Indulge for us all who only show to you half intelligence' yet another perceived discrepancy,
your recent words do not seem to agree with these two verses?Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him:
but unto him that blasphemeth against the HolySpirit shall not be forgiven;
neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Matt.12:32Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 07 2010,03:04) TO ALL:
I am committed to defining all things within their biblical context.
thinker
Please explain?Jodi Lee said:
Quote Our Heavenly Father does not change from being our One True God, and the fact that He planned for us eternal life through the man Jesus of whom He MADE for us to be a Master and the Christ, certainly does NOT change either.
Jesus Christ is not “a” master to us. He is “the ONLY master and Lord” (Jude 4). He is the “only King of kings and Lord of lords.” Your statement is anathema!The “only true God” statement does not exclude Jesus. By your logic the Father would be excluded from the statement “Only Master and Lord” (Jude 4). Jesus is the “only King of kings and Lord of lords.” Applying your logic consistently would mean that the Father is not also King of kings and Lord of lords.
Either be consistent in your logic or dump it.
Jodi Lee:
Quote We are to have Faith, trusting that Jesus is in fact our Mediator, the man who reconciled us back to the Father.
Please reply to 1 John 5:13-15 which says that John wrote that we might believe in the name of the Son of God and that this should produce the confidence to petition Him in prayer expecting that He will answer if what we ask is according to HIS WILL.It is clear that your view of faith in Christ does not go far enough.
Jodi Lee:
Quote …Faith in the fact that he is the MAN who died for us and that he is the man who was raised from the dead, giving us hope and faith that our Heavenly Father will also raise us from the dead. This is the Gospel the light and truth
Jesus CLEARLY taught that He and the Father TOGETHER would raise the dead.Quote “For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
There it is! The Son raises the dead TOGETHER WITH the Father. Moreover, there is that pesty little phrase you don't like, “whom He will.”Did you get that Jodi. The Son will raise from the dead whomsoever HE WILLS.
“This is the Gospel the light and the truth.”
Again, the faith toward the Son of God you advocate is less than what is required of you.
Jodi Lee:
Quote This is a statement by Jesus that applies to ALL men throughout ALL of time.
Jesus said that He raises from the dead whom He will. “This is a statement by Jesus that applies to ALL men throughout ALL of time.”Jodi Lee:
Quote John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.” THESE WORDS DO NOT BECOME OBSOLETE!
I was hoping you would bring this up. Jesus indeed said that men must worship the Father in spirit and in truth. But did you notice that Jesus did not tell us what this means. He left that for the apostle Paul to explain.According to Paul worship in the spirit is trust through Christ toward God. Faith toward God in its old covenant content is abolished. In this age it is “trust through Christ toward God.”
Quote And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the spirit; for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.
Boom! The worship of God in the spirit is TRUST THROUGH CHRIST! Paul goes on to say that we are being changed from the image of Moses (the letter) to the image of Christ (the spirit).So if you worship God according to old covenant principles then you are not worshiping Him at all. Faith toward God today is trust through Christ not just as “a” lord but as “the ONLY master and Lord” and as the “King of kings and Lord of lords” and as God representatively and as the One who raises from the dead whom He wills, and as the one who may reveal the Father to whomsoever He wills and the one to whom we may petition expecting an answer if our petition be according to His will.
THESE WORDS DO NOT BECOME OBSOLETE!
Jodi Lee:
Quote Righteousness comes through the belief that a man died for our sins and was raised from the dead. Righteousness comes through belief that the Father fulfilled His promise to David in that He would not allow His Holy One to see corruption. If we belief in Jesus Christ we believe that he was that Holy One, born of the seed of David and raised of the seed of David! Yes but this is only half the truth. A half truth is a lie!. See the biblical evidence immediately above. He is also the “I AM” and he said that if you do not believe this you shall “die in your sins.”
“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” John 8:24
I won't die in my sins.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 08 2010,06:53) Hi TT,
The son has been given all authority by his God.
The lesser is blessed by the greater.[Heb7]
The Son was given all authority in the manner that an employee is given his wages. Christ received His just reward. Justice knows no inequality.thinker
Hi TT,
So Jesus is to God as an employee is to an employer?
What happened to your silly equal trinity idea?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 08 2010,07:09) Hi TT,
So Jesus is to God as an employee is to an employer?
What happened to your silly equal trinity idea?
The point of the illustration is that it God did not award all authority to Christ as a superior but as a debtor. Justice required God to give Christ all authority and justice knows no inequality.Love knows no inequality either. The Father gave all authority to Christ out of love. Justice knows no inequality and love knows no inequality.
But you are free to twist my words as you please. The stats show that there are many who visit and read this board. So people know that you never have anything to contribute that is of any substance.
thinker
thinker……….Did Justice require GOD to given Him HIS HOLY SPIRIT also? Does Justice require GOD to give us His spirit also, or is it the LOVE of GOD that does it. Your pushing Jesus ahead of equal to GOD the Father is in error, Jesus is a recipient of GOD'S LOVE , just as we are also. No difference , for GOD is NOT Partial nor is He a respecter of persons. He loves Hs creation the WORLD and Has set out to (SAVE) It and deliver the (WHOLE) creation from corruption. AS SCRIPTURE SAYS.
either what genesis says is true that god and the holy spirit created all
or jesus is the word of god and god, and vise versa whom both have been always
or jesus was just a man as the prophets were…. but then any man could have done what jesus did. so that is not true, because there were others that did not sin. jesus though with god's nature and spirit were not under that sin law from adam.
with all the scriptures that show jesus in such unity in god and been worshiped by his apostles as god
jesus takes on all gods nature and spirit and words and works. nothing is ever from or of him, only the fathers.the unity is shown as how a human can relate to it by family members. one having more authority and power over the other.
jesus is part of god, is in unity with him and not as seperate as one thinks. god's unity is complex. this does not mean jesus wasn't a man, son of god born of his spirit and given his spirit.
if god's own words made all and jesus is god's word then how is that not in unity with god.
is his word also wisdom? is god almight y the source of all and jesus is his word's and wisdom?
no matter how you want to play it jesus and god are more than a father and son as us humans are .
their unity is very different and complex.
Gene said:
Quote Your pushing Jesus ahead of equal to GOD the Father is in error,
Gene,
You say that Jesus is not equal with God. But we have disproved you a thousand times and you just stop your ears. Paul said that the Son WILL BE subject to the Father. This means that the Son was EQUAL with the Father at the time Paul wrote the book. The statement “will be subject” makes no sense if Jesus was subject then. The proof is in the fact that the Son may reveal the Father to whomsoever HE WILLS. But you don't like that statement! You just keep your bottle of white out for certain parts of your Bible. And if you could delete this truth from mine and WJ's posts you would.I am teaching the doctrines of the Christian church for the last 2,000 years. You say that Jesus was just a recipient of God's love. This is bunk man! The Father and the Son MUTUALLY loved each other. And it was Jesus who died for you out of love for you and you just spit in His face.
“I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.”
Do you see that Gene! The Son of God LOVED you but you say that the Father did everything and that the Son did nothing.
And when will you ever get around to answering Hebrews 5:9?
“And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,”
Jesus is the SOURCE of salvation man! I'm not “pushing” anything. I'm trying to get you aligned with God's new covenant way so you don't perish!
You have no case Gene. You can't take what was true of Christ in the days of His flesh and make it true of Him now. He is the our “only Master and Lord” now. At some point you will have to get with the program before it's too late.
thinker
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 07 2010,13:25) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 06 2010,11:10) Jodi Lee said: Quote Once again are you saying this is a lie, or we are suppose to believe that to some people the Father is the God of Jesus but to others He is not the God of Jesus? I have said over and over again that the Father is the God of Jesus but NOT the Lord of Jesus.
Jesus Himself is the King of kings and Lord of lords.” Moreover, He is the ONLY King of kings and Lord of lords.” He has no Lord over Him.thinker
Hi ThinkingMan,We have another very interesting yes/no presented.
Thinker had previously said he would gladly explain using scripture.Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 07 2010,03:04) TO ALL: I am committed to defining all things within their biblical context.
thinker
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me,
ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Are you overlooking these scriptures, or do they have no relevance any more as well?
Please indulge?
ED J
Hi Thinker,Here's another.
Ed J
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 08 2010,06:12) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 08 2010,04:22) You're trying to have it both ways. You confess that Jesus was exalted yet you believe He is still a servant and under the Spirit's direction.
thinker
Hi ThinkingMan,We are presented with yet another very interesting yes/no dichotomy.
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 06 2010,13:54) If you are not going to make an attempt to show half intelligence I will not continue to indulge you.
thinker
Indulge for us all who only show to you half intelligence' yet another perceived discrepancy,
your recent words do not seem to agree with these two verses?Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him:
but unto him that blasphemeth against the HolySpirit shall not be forgiven;
neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Matt.12:32Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 07 2010,03:04) TO ALL:
I am committed to defining all things within their biblical context.
thinker
Please explain?
Hi Thinker,Here's another.
Please explain?Ed J
thinker………I did not say Jesus did nothing, i said (He) said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF. that is the point Here, you Trinitarians remove GOD the FATHER from that picture and replace Him with Jesus by himself. That is the POINT>
hi TT
you can see i was right wen i told you that you dispute not for truth but for the sake of confrontation and disregarding bible truth.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
