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Ken,
That is why I believe that the logos became flesh not at the birth of Yeshua, but at the baptism. We know some things: (1) You listed verses that speak of ascension and descension (2) the Gospel of John does not speak of the birth but intersperses John the Baptist with the logos prelude. (3) When does God Himself call Yeshua His Son — at the baptism. (4) God speaks at the baptism — just as He spoke at creation.
Mat 3:15 But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he permitted Him.
Mat 3:16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
Mat 3:17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”Quote (IM4Truth @ Aug. 08 2007,11:21) He was the first that came forth from the Father. He was spirit, and He created everything by the power of the Father. How then do you explain-
Proverbs 8:22 The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. 23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth 26 when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the world's first bits of soil. 27 When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, 29 when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 then I was beside him, LIKE A MASTER WORKER; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, 31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the human race.
The spirit of wisdom was created at the beginning before God created the heavens and earth. This spirit says that she was with God when God created the heavens and earth.
If you are right then why doesn’t it say-
-a Spirit Son was the first thing that God created, and the Spirit Son went on to create the heavens and earth?How also do you explain that the most exalted king of the earth, was going to be APPOINTED as firstborn, and would be David’s descendent.
Psalms 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my sacred oil I have anointed him. 21 My hand will sustain him; surely my arm will strengthen him. 22 No enemy will subject him to tribute; no wicked man will oppress him. 23 I will crush his foes before him and strike down his adversaries. 24 My faithful love will be with him, and through my name his horn will be exalted. 25 I will set his hand over the sea, his right hand over the rivers. 26 He will call out to me, 'You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.' 27 I will also appoint him my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth. 28 I will maintain my love to him forever, and my covenant with him will never fail. 29 I will establish his line forever, his throne as long as the heavens endure. 30 “If his sons forsake my law and do not follow my statutes, 31 if they violate my decrees and fail to keep my commands, 32 I will punish their sin with the rod, their iniquity with flogging; 33 but I will not take my love from him, nor will I ever betray my faithfulness. 34 I will not violate my covenant or alter what my lips have uttered. 35 Once for all, I have sworn by my holiness– and I will not lie to David– 36 that his line will continue forever and his throne endure before me like the sun; 37 it will be established forever like the moon, the faithful witness in the sky.” Selah
Genesis 48:18 Joseph said to his father, “Not so, my father! Since this one is the firstborn, put your right hand on his head.” 19 But his father refused, and said, “I know, my son, I know; he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great. Nevertheless his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his offspring shall become a multitude of nations.” 20 So he blessed them that day, saying, “By you Israel will invoke blessings, saying, “God make you like Ephraim and like Manasseh.' ” So he put Ephraim ahead of Manasseh.
-Ephraim was appointed at the right hand of his father even though he was not the firstborn son.
Acts 2:29 “Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “'The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.'” 36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
God kept His promise to David and exalted his descendent Jesus to His right hand, giving Jesus the rights of a firstborn son.
Heb 1:2 – but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom he also created the worlds.
Jesus was appointed heir of all things-and through the foreknowledge of Jesus God created the worlds
Acts 17:31 because he has fixed a day on which he will have the world judged in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”
Notice a MAN is appointed firstborn-not a Spirit Son is the firstborn!
1Co 15:21–
For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being;Col 1:18 -He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the
dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything.Re 1:5 – and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood,
Notice it is a human being who is raised from the dead and called the firstborn. No where in scripture are we told that a Spirit Son is the firstborn of all creation raised from the dead.
To say that a pre-existent Spirit Son is the firstborn is to make God a liar to David, for God told David that he would appoint his descendent (a man/a human being), as the firstborn and as the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
Jodi To me it simply does not make sense that God had to create Wisdom, when He was all Wise and Almighty in every way. Do not understand WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY? No He did not lie, He was talking about the Jesus that became flesh. Everybody gets mixed up. It was Jesus who had preeminence in all. He became man, in order to die for us. What does preeminence mean. He was first in everything.
You mean because Jesus was a spirit before, that now He cannot become a Human Being.
What do you think what He meant when He said in
John 17:5 : And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.”
From spirit to Man back to spirit and He became even more. What is so hard to understand. When God was talking to David, He was talking about the Human Jesus. There is no lie. I will not deny the scriptures that I gave, I cant explain them any other way. Did you really look at those scriptures with an open mind?
What does Rev.1:5 have to do with preexisting
Just because that Jesus was a Human when He died, He did not live before as a Spirit? These scriptures tell it all. He was first in everything.
John 17:5, John 6:62, Col 1:16&17&18 and Rev.3:14 , Hebrew 1:2You give me the Proverbs, lets see what the Moffat translation have to say about that
Proverb 6:22 ” The Eternal formed me first of His creation, first of all his works in the days of old.”
verse 23 “I was fashioned in the earliest ages, from the very first, when the earth began.”
verse 24I was born when there were no abysses, when there was no fountains full of water;”
verse 25 “ere he sunk the bases of the mountains, ere the hills existed, I was born.”
verse 26″ when earth and fields were not created nor the very clods of the wold.”
verse 27 “When He set the heaven up, I was there, when He drew the the Vault o”er the abyss.”
verse 28 “when he made the clouds firm overhead, when He fixed the fountains of the deep.”
veers 29 ” when He set the boundaries of the sea, when he laid foundation for the earth;”
verse 30 ” I was with him then, his foster child, I was his delight day after day, playing in His presence constantly.” I dont know why He said foster child.Peace and Love Mrs.
Jodi If He was first , He was first in everything is that not what scripture is saying? If God says that He created through Jesus the world then He had to be there, how else could Jesus create all.
Hebrew 1:2………….through whom He also created the world.” You are giving scriptures that supports that Jesus was there, when the world was created. He is called firstborn of the dead and firstborn of all creation. Why are you denying those scriptures I don't get it. I did not write those scriptures out, you can look them up in your Bible. That is what they say. i JUST GIVE YOU ONE
Hebrew 1:2 has in the last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, THROUGH WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLD;
Mrs.Kejonn,
Jesus was CONCEIVED in Mary by God's holy spirit —– does that qualify as a moment in time when God became the Father of the baby growing inside of Mary? If not, what would you call the conception/virgin birth. Who's son was Jesus AT HIS BIRTH? Joseph's boy?
Quote (IM4Truth @ Aug. 08 2007,15:35) Jodi To me it simply does not make sense that God had to create Wisdom, when He was all Wise and Almighty in every way. Do not understand WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY? No He did not lie, He was talking about the Jesus that became flesh. Everybody gets mixed up. It was Jesus who had preeminence in all. He became man, in order to die for us. What does preeminence mean. He was first in everything.
You mean because Jesus was a spirit before, that now He cannot become a Human Being.
What do you think what He meant when He said in
John 17:5 : And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.”
From spirit to Man back to spirit and He became even more. What is so hard to understand. When God was talking to David, He was talking about the Human Jesus. There is no lie. I will not deny the scriptures that I gave, I cant explain them any other way. Did you really look at those scriptures with an open mind?
What does Rev.1:5 have to do with preexisting
Just because that Jesus was a Human when He died, He did not live before as a Spirit? These scriptures tell it all. He was first in everything.
John 17:5, John 6:62, Col 1:16&17&18 and Rev.3:14 , Hebrew 1:2You give me the Proverbs, lets see what the Moffat translation have to say about that
Proverb 6:22 ” The Eternal formed me first of His creation, first of all his works in the days of old.”
verse 23 “I was fashioned in the earliest ages, from the very first, when the earth began.”
verse 24I was born when there were no abysses, when there was no fountains full of water;”
verse 25 “ere he sunk the bases of the mountains, ere the hills existed, I was born.”
verse 26″ when earth and fields were not created nor the very clods of the wold.”
verse 27 “When He set the heaven up, I was there, when He drew the the Vault o”er the abyss.”
verse 28 “when he made the clouds firm overhead, when He fixed the fountains of the deep.”
veers 29 ” when He set the boundaries of the sea, when he laid foundation for the earth;”
verse 30 ” I was with him then, his foster child, I was his delight day after day, playing in His presence constantly.” I dont know why He said foster child.Peace and Love Mrs.
It's not hard to understand, I just don't find it to be biblical.
Why is it hard for you to understand that the bible says that the firstborn was Jesus born of Mary. No where does it say that the firstborn was a pre-existent Spirit Son. You are ADDING to scripture. Instead of looking to the Old Testament and seeing how it is that Jesus is APPOINTED firstborn, you are MAKING UP a story about a pre-existent Son. If a firstborn already existed, then why would God tell David that he would appoint him a firstborn son, from his line? Would it be more likely that David thought God was talking about a firstborn Spirit morphing into a baby with his blood, or that David would think under his Hebrew culture that appointed firstborn meant that a baby of his blood would grow in great favor with God and earn the rights to a firstborn's inheritence, and become heir to God the Father's kingdom. Clearly David would and did believe the latter.Yes Jesus had glory with God in the beginning, this is why God created the heavens and earth. He created them with Jesus born of Mary in mind. Without the foreknowledge of God perfecting man, by the use of a human being, God would not have created the earth. This is how God created the earth through Jesus.
You are misinterpreting the word THROUGH here. Simple example,…..through Molly I decorated her room. Without knowing that I was going to bring Molly into the world, I would have never decorated a room for her. It is through the foreknowledge of my daughters birth that I created her room. This is the same for God created the heavens and earth. Without God foreknowing of a righteous man, leading others to righteousness He would have never created the heavens and earth. By God the heavens and earth were created, but it is through the foreknowledge of Jesus that God created them. As well, it is For the perfected man that God created the heavens and the earth.
-Does the bible ever tell us that a pre-existent Spirit Son created the heavens and earth?
-Does the bible tell us that Jesus was foreknown to God, and that he would wipe away our sins?I prefer to interpret scripture with the use of other scriptures, and not make up stories to find understanding.
Lets look really close at this scripture-
Hebrew 1:2 has in the last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, THROUGH WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLD.
Please notice- this scripture says that God made the world through Jesus, it does not say that Jesus made the world through God.
If the pre-existent Spirit Son was made into Jesus, what part of the Spirit Son can we see in Jesus. Was it his mind? Was it his flesh? What exactly did it serve God, or Jesus for that matter, to make his Spirit Son into a baby? I have not read a scripture that said that Jesus did all things through God's Spirit, and the Spirit Son's spirit. Like I mentioned before, I don't see any purpose in the pre-existent Spirit Son.
First in everything. Ok instead of looking to the Old Testament and seeing how God told David that his descendent would become King of Kings-THUS BEING FIRST IN EVERYTHING,
you follow the made up story that this must mean he is the first thing ever created.First, meaning ahead of everything. This interpretation is not stretching since, we know that Jesus is above all things and that he is the head of the body. Oh yes, and of course he is our leader, he is first -and we FOLLOW him.
Your interpretation is stretching because there is not a word in the bible that talks about the creation of a Spirit Son being created first.
When you say that Jesus is firstborn as a pre-existent Spirit Son- those words are empty. To be called firstborn when you are not literally the first thing God created is a greater honor.
Yes out of the dead, Jesus is the firstborn out of all creation into eternal life. Jesus was appointed firstborn, heir and king of all creation, and he was born first out of the dead into eternal life. This is scriptural and not hard to understand.
Yes it is true God did not have to create wisdom. God is wisdom. He did however have to create away in which a free will individual can learn God's wisdom. The human brain to take on the wisdom of God is a complex process, and it involves the sharing of information. God shares information with us through His Spirit. The Spirit of wisdom in Proverbs is this spirit.
What I was trying to point out with Proverbs is that the two things you are claiming about a pre-existent Spirit Son, #1 the first thing God created and #2 the person who created the heavens and earth, are mentioned in these passages but without any reference to him. If he were going to be mentioned in the bible, which he isn't, you would think that this would be the place.
I have NOT denied the scriptures you have stated I have actually used them giving what I believe is a correct interpretation, one that relies on other scriptures.
We both say that it shouldn't be hard to understand the others view. I understand your view perfectly, your right it is not hard, especially since it invloves a limited number of misinterpreted scriptures. In my opinion you have not looked into what the bible tells you firstborn means, instead you have made up a story to give yourself understanding to what it means.
I think we might just have to agree to disagree on this-
Peace and love to you to Mrs.Not3,
Yes, he was the Son of God by birth. But my thought is that the logos did not become flesh until the baptism. Unless the logos is also the Holy Spirit! Now this only “works” if you think that logos signifies something other than a “plan”. There are too many verses that support Yeshua having some sort of existence IMO to deny the “plan” scenario.
But I often wonder if all of this knowledge of prior glory and other stuff that he spoke of was always with him. As I've stated before, why is there nothing recorded of him with the exception of his birth and the temple scene at age 12 in Luke before his baptism? And what does this signify in relation to Yeshua's baptism?
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?”
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 “Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Joh 3:8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?”
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?
Joh 3:11 “Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.
Joh 3:12 “If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
Joh 3:13 “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.Now, let me ask you? Why was the baptism so important? Was Yeshua not without sin? Was he doing it just so we'd follow his example? Why did the Holy Spirit come down and alight on him? Does baptism not signify our rebirth? Dying to the old life, raised up to the new? Also, why the change in the way people saw him?
Mat 13:54 He came to His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?
Mat 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
Mat 13:56 “And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”
Mat 13:57 And they took offense at Him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household.”
Mat 13:58 And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.On yet another note, why do we not see where Satan really laid the pressure on Yeshua until after his baptism? Why do we not see any record of anyone calling him Son of God — not even Satan — until after the baptism? The only thing we have that is even remotely close is this
Luk 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
Now this to me signifies that Yeshua did not have an earthly Father for his humanity, but God. But still, in all of Luke 2, he is not called Son of God again. He was called Savior, “a light of revelation to the Gentiles”, and the “glory of God's people, Israel”.
I think it is also interesting that neither Mark nor John record the birth story. Both start at the baptism. And the account of the baptism is not clear because it does not record the actual act, but the implication is clear, and the order of recognition seems to fall in place. Check it out.
Joh 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Joh 1:30 “This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'
Joh 1:31 “I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water.”
Joh 1:32 John testified saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.
Joh 1:33 “I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'
Joh 1:34 “I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.”Now look at the order. The implication is that JTB knew that Yeshua was Savior before the baptism (1:29) but he did not testify that he was the Son of God until after he speaks of the sign of the Holy Spirit descending and remaining on Yeshua.
Now I must admit, of all the baptism accounts, I struggle with the Gospel of John's. All 3 of the synoptic Gospels record that the voice of God signifies that Yeshua is the Son of God. The GoJ account has JTB testifying it. Why this significant difference? There has to be some reason I'm missing.
Why do we as children call our father, father? because he gave us live. Why do we call our heavenly Father, Father? because he is the giver of all live. That is the definition of father, “giver of live”.
Why does Jesus, his son, call the Father, Father? because the father gives live to the son.
Mary conceived through the Holy Spirit, should not the Holy Spirit be the father?
Why is something so simple so confusing?
Mrs.Jodi I am not making up stories, all I have been doing is giving you is scriptures. All you doing give me other scriptures that have nothing to do with preexisting. Why?
Again John 17:5
John 6:62
Col.1:16-17_18
Rev. 3:14
Hebrew 1:2
You would do yourself a favor and look at these scriptures. Not me. I am done with this.
Mrs.Quote (IM4Truth @ Aug. 09 2007,04:31) Jodi I am not making up stories, all I have been doing is giving you is scriptures. All you doing give me other scriptures that have nothing to do with preexisting. Why?
Again John 17:5
John 6:62
Col.1:16-17_18
Rev. 3:14
Hebrew 1:2
You would do yourself a favor and look at these scriptures. Not me. I am done with this.
Mrs.
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.-Does this scripture say that a Spirit Son was created and existed before God created the heavens and earth.—————NO
-Does anywhere in the bible give the account of the creation of the Spirit Son—————–NO
-Does the bible tell us that Jesus was foreknown to God TO BE His son, and TO BE APPOINTED as firstborn———————-YES
So if I were to conclude FROM what the bible GIVES me, the scripture is telling me that Jesus had glory with God before He created him.
If God does have foreknowledge I think He’d know ahead of time if Jesus WOULD have glory or not. Not only do I believe that God knew Jesus would have glory, but I most certainly think that God delighted in knowing it.
Yes, I know what you are thinking IAM4Truth, my interpretation does not change the fact that God could have foreknown that the Spirit Son would become a man who would have glory. The problem is this scripture, as well as the entire bible lacks telling me about the Spirit Son, so I interpret the scripture without ADDING him in!
John 6:62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
You have a problem here, because notice it says SON of Man ascend to where he was before—it does not say Spirit Son, but it is talking about a man being with God before.
-Does the OT tell us that a special MAN dwelled in the presence of God in heaven before he was born on earth?————NO
-Does the OT tell us that a special man existed in the mind of God and would be born a descendent of David?………………….YES
Jesus came down from heaven, because he was the direct plan of God, and God put that plan into action when the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus. What Made Jesus who he was, was the Spirit that came down. What made Jesus ascend to heaven was that same Spirit. This is biblical, what is not biblical is taking the scripture to mean that Jesus pre-existed.
The scripture is telling us that Jesus CAME FROM GOD, and that he was the planned Messiah God had said he would one day manifest on earth.
Col.1:16-18
Rev. 1:5
Hebrew 1:2To be honest IM4Truth you are being a little frustrating because you tell me to look at these scriptures as if I did not just explain them to you. The problem is I am explaining them through the use of other scriptures, you on the other hand are explaining them by what you find most logical in your mind. You rather go by what you think it means then what the bible tells you from other scriptures what it actually means. I find this to be a major error on your part in trying to define biblical truth. If there is anything I have learned about reading the bible is that scriptures that are up for interpretation need the use of other scriptures to interpret them correctly.
A person is reading the bible from beginning to end. They come across some scriptures that sound like Jesus must have pre-existed. They are confused because they don’t ever recall reading anything prior on such a notion, so they decide to look back and investigate. What they find is Jesus was foreknown, and that Jesus would be appointed as a firstborn, as well as that a person under Hebrew culture can be given firstborn rights and inheritance without actually being firstborn. What they don’t find is any account of a pre-existing Jesus. Continuing on they come across scriptures saying that Jesus is firstborn of the dead. They then logically conclude that their thinking that Jesus might have pre-existed was false, because, not only could they not biblically confirm this notion, but the bible prooved the truth to be otherwise.
I gave you scriptures telling you what Jesus as firstborn means. You are right they have nothing to do with pre-existence. Why in the world would they since pre-existence only exists in your mind, and not in the bible.
IAM4TRUTH I am very good at keeping an open mind. I like to try and understand why people see things differently, and I try and let what I see in their understanding impact my own understanding. This process usually has one of three results, either I further confirm my own belief, or I become convinced of what they believe, or I end up with a whole new belief. As well as keeping an open mind, I also like to keep an open bible.
Even though I'm a little frustrated, especially since you don't seem follow your own advice…keeping an open mind and actually looking at ALL scriptures, I still am and have been enjoying our debate
Peace to youGood discussions everyone! Wow, this is exciting. I've only been checking in here and there because we have so many projects going on right now at home (a remodel, my garden is expanding and kids are in sports – whew).
I have responses ready for Jodi and KJ, I just need a few moments to get them on the right threads. I'm hoping this weekend I'll have some time.
I've been encouraged by the talks here and other threads. Keep it up brothers and sisters!
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 11 2007,16:49) Good discussions everyone! Wow, this is exciting. I've only been checking in here and there because we have so many projects going on right now at home (a remodel, my garden is expanding and kids are in sports – whew). I have responses ready for Jodi and KJ, I just need a few moments to get them on the right threads. I'm hoping this weekend I'll have some time.
I've been encouraged by the talks here and other threads. Keep it up brothers and sisters!
See Sis if you kept the Sabbath you would have time.Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 12 2007,01:35) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 11 2007,16:49) Good discussions everyone! Wow, this is exciting. I've only been checking in here and there because we have so many projects going on right now at home (a remodel, my garden is expanding and kids are in sports – whew). I have responses ready for Jodi and KJ, I just need a few moments to get them on the right threads. I'm hoping this weekend I'll have some time.
I've been encouraged by the talks here and other threads. Keep it up brothers and sisters!
See Sis if you kept the Sabbath you would have time.
Again, bro, I DO keep the Sabbath…..it may not be like you do, but I do keep it. No judgement, right?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 12 2007,14:24) Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 12 2007,01:35) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 11 2007,16:49) Good discussions everyone! Wow, this is exciting. I've only been checking in here and there because we have so many projects going on right now at home (a remodel, my garden is expanding and kids are in sports – whew). I have responses ready for Jodi and KJ, I just need a few moments to get them on the right threads. I'm hoping this weekend I'll have some time.
I've been encouraged by the talks here and other threads. Keep it up brothers and sisters!
See Sis if you kept the Sabbath you would have time.
Again, bro, I DO keep the Sabbath…..it may not be like you do, but I do keep it. No judgement, right?
Sis you know that their were no names for any of the days except the Sabbath. I suppose that you know that the Sabbath is on the seventh day. There are those that teach you can keep the Sabbath on any day you wish as long as you keep one in seven.Now when the forth commandment say remember to keep the Sabbath, which day is it speaking of? There is only one day that has a name in the bible and that is the Seventh day Sabbath. So when God says to remember the Sabbath isn't he saying to keep the seventh day?
The seventh day is the only day with a name so what other day is he speaking of. He is singling out the only day with a name the seventh day.Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 12 2007,15:04) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 12 2007,14:24) Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 12 2007,01:35) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 11 2007,16:49) Good discussions everyone! Wow, this is exciting. I've only been checking in here and there because we have so many projects going on right now at home (a remodel, my garden is expanding and kids are in sports – whew). I have responses ready for Jodi and KJ, I just need a few moments to get them on the right threads. I'm hoping this weekend I'll have some time.
I've been encouraged by the talks here and other threads. Keep it up brothers and sisters!
See Sis if you kept the Sabbath you would have time.
Again, bro, I DO keep the Sabbath…..it may not be like you do, but I do keep it. No judgement, right?
Sis you know that their were no names for any of the days except the Sabbath. I suppose that you know that the Sabbath is on the seventh day. There are those that teach you can keep the Sabbath on any day you wish as long as you keep one in seven.Now when the forth commandment say remember to keep the Sabbath, which day is it speaking of? There is only one day that has a name in the bible and that is the Seventh day Sabbath. So when God says to remember the Sabbath isn't he saying to keep the seventh day?
The seventh day is the only day with a name so what other day is he speaking of. He is singling out the only day with a name the seventh day.
Bro, with all due respect (you know I love you):Romans 14:4-6
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 12 2007,17:30) Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 12 2007,15:04) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 12 2007,14:24) Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 12 2007,01:35) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 11 2007,16:49) Good discussions everyone! Wow, this is exciting. I've only been checking in here and there because we have so many projects going on right now at home (a remodel, my garden is expanding and kids are in sports – whew). I have responses ready for Jodi and KJ, I just need a few moments to get them on the right threads. I'm hoping this weekend I'll have some time.
I've been encouraged by the talks here and other threads. Keep it up brothers and sisters!
See Sis if you kept the Sabbath you would have time.
Again, bro, I DO keep the Sabbath…..it may not be like you do, but I do keep it. No judgement, right?
Sis you know that their were no names for any of the days except the Sabbath. I suppose that you know that the Sabbath is on the seventh day. There are those that teach you can keep the Sabbath on any day you wish as long as you keep one in seven.Now when the forth commandment say remember to keep the Sabbath, which day is it speaking of? There is only one day that has a name in the bible and that is the Seventh day Sabbath. So when God says to remember the Sabbath isn't he saying to keep the seventh day?
The seventh day is the only day with a name so what other day is he speaking of. He is singling out the only day with a name the seventh day.
Bro, with all due respect (you know I love you):Romans 14:4-6
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.
Read the whole chapter. it deals with those weak in faith and food offered to idols then compare 1 cor 8.Besides this is it the only weak scriptures that you can read what ever you want into it.
Over and over we are told to keep His Commandments. You disagree?
I don't know if I fully agree?
Over and over again I read about the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and the reconciliation of my soul to God. I read that the law was useless to perform these tasks.
The Law was put into place so that we would realize we needed a Saviour. The Law was put into place because God knew we would break the law……..that sin would abound even more – right? Christ was the end of the Law – right? Are we to obey the commandments when the commandments were given to the Jews? The Word tells us that even tho we are Gentiles, and do not have the Law, we obey it nevertheless because it is written on our hearts. To this degree, I believe we are to obey.
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