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Nick………you know as well as i do the word FEAR means reverence and respect, not the modern English meaning Nick unless you were under the old covenant EX 20:20, that the FEAR of HIM be in YOU that you sin NOT. Is that the way we of the New Covenant should be Nick. Going around shaking in dread of our Loving FATHER as they were. You can Put new wine in Old Skins Nick it doesn't work. The old covenant worked through Law (forced compliance) through the Medium of FEAR , If you chose to find perfection that way then make sure you do it (ALL) less you fall under a curse , for it says cursed is everyone who does not do all that is contained in the law. AS Paul quoted. But we have not come to that Mountain to FEAR as they Did, but to a new and Living way. Nick you can't have it both way brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene
Quote (martian @ Feb. 05 2009,11:03) Quote (meerkat @ Feb. 05 2009,08:44) Kerwin/Gene, Both of you accusing the other “not of God” are both judging each other – to me it seems that neither is showing the fruit of the Spirit which is love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith.
There is a difference between searching the scriptures, seeking truth, standing up for the truth, not tolerating falsehood and on the other hand resorting to personal attacks.
Correct —- especially on a web site. This is a game venue.
Paul says that to be saved you must believe that Jesus rose from the grave and is our saviour. Doctrines other then that have nothing to do with it.
Martian,The sayings of Paul and the original disciples in the NT in context I think some of them related to them pleading with the Jews and others to save themselves from the wrath of God that was coming against the old covenant peoples which happened in 70AD – I believe that some things have been taken out of context and transplanted into a final armegeddon philosophy that of all prophecy is about a future hellfire wrath with believers being good and getting eternal life and unbelievers automatically being evil and getting eternal torment and all of this is still coming in our future.
I really think that some instances of believe and be saved was about a physical salvation from the wrath of God and was not meaning only those that believe will be righteous and all others who do not believe are therefore evil and will be tormented eternally.
Hi MK,
You mean Jn3?14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
nick………So whats that got to do with FEAR, And remember the word Condemned can also equally mean Judged . Jesus himself said He came not to Judge or condemn anyone. It is unfortunate the the same word is used for both.
18…> He that believes on Him is not judged; but he that believes not is Judged all ready, because he hath not believed ……
19…> and this is the judgement, that light is come into the world……Non of this has any thing to do with fearing GOD, FEAR is (NOT) of FAITH but is only good to try to get a person to do something , and Faith is Not needed to accomplish that at all. Nor a changed Heart by GOD, If what you do is because of FEAR then you still are under the OLD COVENANT a covenant the did not require Faith at all, Just Law (force compliance) through the medium of fear.EX20:20 In fact if you care to investigate you will find the reason God turned His loving Commandments into the form of a LAW was because of their (UNBELIEF) and because of that God, Got them to obey through FEAR as EX 20:20 plainly shows and Paul brought this out also.
love and peace to you and yours……………………………….gene
Gb,
The NT does not speak in a kindly way of those who reject the grace of the fear of GodRomans 3:18
There is no fear of God before their eyes.Indeed this virtue is extolled
2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.Ephesians 5:21
Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.Colossians 3:22
Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God;Revelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.But you walk in your own light
Nick……….So all the other scriptures that show that Love casts out fear, and we have (NOT) received a Spirit of FEAR but of Power and love and of a sound mind, and Nothing is perfected in FEAR for FEAR has torment, DON”T apply. right Should we then cut them out of or Bibles, to fit you fear teachings, or should we believe that all the fearful and unbelieving will have their part in the lake of fire as Scripture says. Which shall it be ? Your fear BASED religion is not of FAITH At all. Fear is a deterrent but never changes the heart and mind of anyone , if it could then there would not be a need for the new covenant. For you have (NOT) come to that mountain to FEAR as they did. But you insist we should go to that mountain to fear as they did. And so you can walk in your own light of fear also. with the torment that goes along with it. (For fear (HAS) TORMENT) and (NOTHING ) is PERFECTED IN FEAR.. Think about it Nick. Would you really want to live in a world where everyone is going around full of fear and trembling anyway. Love GOD and keep the commandments by His Spirit given us. There is no fear in that Nick, but LOVE which cast (OUT) FEAR. as scripture plainly says. It up to you to believe it or not.
love and peace to you and yours…………………..gene
Nick……….Is it what i Think or what SCRIPTURE SAYS? Again tell us what scriptures we should through out of the bible in order to meet you fear religious teachings.
peace and love ……………………………..gene
Gene Balthrop wrote:
Quote It's interesting how all fear monger use the same scriptures to justify themselves , but all the many other Scriptures the Show Fear is not what we receive and we are to Love God and Keep His commandments and these are fulfilled through the Love of GOD in our Hearts and minds
In other words your choose to cherry pick the scriptures you will believe and how you would interpret them instead of looking at for a rational whole that is consistent with God’s nature.
Gene Balthrop wrote:
Quote What do you do with the scripture in Titus that says we have (NOT) received a SPIRIT of FEAR as you preach, but of Power and Love and of a sound MIND?
I already told you God does not give us a Spirit of doom but he does give us a spirit of hope that we will overcome all of our sins.
Gene Balthrop wrote:
Quote Even regular concordance will tell that the word means reverence and respect, not like our English definition means.
Please! I can understand the use of the word “fear” in its context and as I pointed out Jesus did not say “Respect him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell”. The obvious word in the context is “fear”. Stop ignoring those scriptures that you cannot twist to tell your itching ears what they want to hear.
Gene Balthrop wrote:
Quote Here is another Scripture you fear mongers can chew on, Eze 36:27 And (I) will put my SPIRIT within you, and (CAUSE) you to walk in my statues and ye shall keep MY Judgments and do them. DO you see any fear there; fear mongers will have their part with the unbelievers in the lake of fire as revelation says.
Ezekiel 36:27(NIV) reads:
Quote And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws
That is one reason those with the Spirit are careful to keep God’s laws. Here is more reason why you should fear God’s judgment if you chose to persist in your disobedience.
Ezekiel 36:16-18(NIV) reads:
Quote Again the word of the LORD came to me: “Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman's monthly uncleanness in my sight. So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols.
You say that “God has blinded himself to my uncleanliness by the blood of Jesus and so will not punish me for the wicked things I choose to do”. In that way you trample the blood of Jesus under your feet. I assure you if you continue in that path you will be doomed. So save yourself and believe that God can break the chains of your slavery to sin and will do it through Jesus the Messiah.
Meercat and Martain,
I beg you to reconsider your definition of judge because it is not consistent with what scripture means when it states do not judge. What scripture means is do not pronounce judgment on anyone even yourself, as that is the job of God. My conscious is clear that I have not done that. In fact scripture states that:
Proverbs 20:11(NIV) reads:
Quote 11 Even a child is known by his actions,
by whether his conduct is pure and right.So we can obviously judge whether a person’s conduct is pure and right or not and if it is not we are commanded not to stand on the sidelines but rather to:
Leviticus 19:17(NIV) reads:
Quote 17 ” 'Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt.
That is all I have done in my writing to Gene and I have expressed my hope that he would stop holding to the wicked teaching he has heard and instead believe that God will and can stop him from sinning through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.
So in this case I am confident I have conformed to what God instructs his people to do.
Quote In other words your choose to cherry pick the scriptures you will believe and how you would interpret them instead of looking at for a rational whole that is consistent with God’s nature. Exactly. I have categorical proof that he does do this. Pages of it.
Quote Stop ignoring those scriptures that you cannot twist to tell your itching ears what they want to hear.
Kerwin, I totally feel your frustration here and sympathize. When someone cannot even acknowledge the existence of certain scriptures, and will not even discuss them, but only wants to discuss their one single scripture which they misunderstand, it is so maddening.Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 05 2009,18:06) Meercat and Martain, I beg you to reconsider your definition of judge because it is not consistent with what scripture means when it states do not judge. What scripture means is do not pronounce judgment on anyone even yourself, as that is the job of God. My conscious is clear that I have not done that. In fact scripture states that:
Proverbs 20:11(NIV) reads:
Quote 11 Even a child is known by his actions,
by whether his conduct is pure and right.So we can obviously judge whether a person’s conduct is pure and right or not and if it is not we are commanded not to stand on the sidelines but rather to:
Leviticus 19:17(NIV) reads:
Quote 17 ” 'Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt.
That is all I have done in my writing to Gene and I have expressed my hope that he would stop holding to the wicked teaching he has heard and instead believe that God will and can stop him from sinning through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.
So in this case I am confident I have conformed to what God instructs his people to do.
I am not in the middle of your argument with GB. I simply put in the Hebrew concept and meaning of “fear”. All of us then stand responsible to use it or not.Kerwin,
My point was not that you were defending right and pointing out what you thought was error it was your manner and tone and your assumption that because Gene has what you term a false teachings that he is not saved. My comment was aimed at both of you because Gene is also making personal attacks against you as well, as well as those who do not agree with him.
I understand that if someone accuses you it is a very human and natural reaction to give them back what they have given you – if they say “Your religion is of fear – and the fearful face the wrath of God – so you will face the wrath of God” it is very easy to turn around and say
Quote
Gene Balthrop wrote:Quote Quote When i do wrong i do not FEAR any wrath of GOD, i have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous,
I agree that you do not believe in God because if you did then you would fear to disobey Him and if you do not repent then you will perish. But instead of believing in God you choose to gather around you those who tell your itching ears what you want to hear. That is normal behavior, at least at this time, according to scripture.
An illustration of incorrect manner is the inquisition when the Roman Catholic church used scripture to support their view that they could kill, persecute and destroy any opposition to their views. That is an extreme example but it would have started out as an idea that if some have heretical ideas we can rebuke them – we need to rebuke them – when we verbally rebuke them they just keep on saying the same thing, so we need stronger rebuking, and ended with the extreme.
What happened to Jesus words in Matt 5 2And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect
Also 2 Tim 2:24-26 2 Timothy 2:24-26 (King James Version)
24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Kerwin,
From my feelings and understandings at the moment is that I love God and Christ and am trying to obey him, and learn – I do not fear (as in scared of Him) God, I do have an immernse awe of his total power and infiniteness – to me it is because I love him and trust him to help me when I sin because I am human and sin and when I do sin, I feel regret and a desire to be like Christ.
To me it is an obedience to the nature of Christ – loving, truthful, merciful that I am trying to follow, actions coming from that inner place and not just an outward display of actions to prove that I am obedient.
From what I can see is I have no control over being physically born and had no control over the state of the creation that is – God created all and I am born into a world of sin and death as a sinful human, I could and did fear the wrath of God – however we are urged to overcome – to me it seems that fear and unbelieving and sin and death and destruction are all related and has a relationship to wrath and the deeds of the flesh – just as life, light, love and spirit are all related and the spiritual, ultimately, has no part with the flesh.
Kerwin……..So tell us which of all the scriptures i quoted we should through put of the Bible, maybe you and David and Nick, can put your heads together and figure which oneS we need to through out. And if anyone is Cherry picking Scriptures it's you and Nick with regards to FEAR. You serve your way with fear and trembling, thats fine with me, I serve My way with Faith and love, because I don't fear God in fact I love him and His ways, and strive to do what He says because i know thats the best way to live and enjoy life, fear has nothing to do with it. The LOVE thAT CASTS (OUT) FEAR is what works. The fearful (who by the way) are the unbelieving will have their part in the Lake of Fire, as scripture says. You both remind me of the servant who was so fearful He hid the talent His lord gave Him. Mat 25:24 > Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art a hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strewed: And I was (AFRAID), and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast what is thine. Now what happened to the fearful person, Mat 25:30 ..> And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
So tell us what we are to do with these scriptures O fearful and trembling ones.
NOTHING IS PERFECT IN FEAR, FOR FEAR HAS TORMENT. TOSS IT OR SAVE IT BUT IGNORE IT?
LOVE CASTS (OUT) FEAR…………………………………… TOSS IT OR SAVE IT BUT IGNORE IT?
BUT YOU HAVE NOT RECEIVED THE SPIRIT OF FEAR, BUT OF POWER AND LOVE AND A SOUND MIND..TOSS IT OR SAVE IT BUT IGNORE IT?
FOR YE HAVE NOT RECEIVED THE SPIRIT OF BONDAGE AGAIN TO FEAR; BUT YE HAVE RECEIVED THE SPIRIT OF ADOPTION, WHEREBY WE CRY ABBA, FATHER……………………………….TOSS IT OR SAVE IT BUT IGNORE IT?
FEAR AND DREAD SHALL FALL UPON THEM; BY THE GRATENESS OF THINE ARM THEY SHALL BE STILL AS A STONE TILL THY PEOPLE PASS OVER, O LORD, TILL THE PEOPLE PASS OVER WHICH THOU HAST PURCHASED. ……TOSS IT OR SAVE IT BUT IGNORE IT?
kERWIN, NICK, STEP UP AND TELL US WHICH OF THESE SHALL WE TAKE OUT OF OUR BIBLES, IN ORDER TO IN ORDER TO FIT YOUR FEAR MONGERING PORTRAYAL OF GOD the FATHER.
LOVE AND PEACE TO YOU AND YOURS……………………gene
meerkat wrote:
Quote My point was not that you were defending right and pointing out what you thought was error it was your manner and tone and your assumption that because Gene has what you term a false teachings that he is not saved.
I am not sure if you do not read scripture, or if you read it why you do not understand it but I do know that scripture is extremely hard on those that teach what is false in the Christian Church. Here is one scripture.
Galatians 1:6-9(NIV) reads:
Quote I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
I want you to know Paul who we considered as being carried along by the Spirit said let those who teach a false doctrine be eternally condemned and then repeated himself to add emphasis. God does not take those who speak falsely in His name lightly because they use his name in vain. Latter on in the same letter Paul also said:
Galatians 2:4-5(NIV) reads:
Quote This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you.
He calls these Christians false brothers and spies and implies the come to sabotage the hope of Christians by making other Christians slaves to sin again. Gene preaches a gospel where you are always a slave to sin because he states you can not stop sinning and scripture tells us quite clearly that anyone who sins is a slave to sin.
John 8:34(NIV) reads:
Quote Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.
And
Romans 6:16(NIV) reads:
Quote Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
meerkat wrote:
Quote What happened to Jesus words in Matt 5
Do you think Jesus forgot his own words when he labeled the Jews in John 8 children of the devil.
John 8:43-45(NIV) reads:
Quote Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
Should I go on pointing to where the people of God often put names on those who refuse to do what is right? I know you have a desire for peace but the peace you hope for is a false peace that results from an alliance with the devil. Jesus spoke against that peace with the words.
Matthew 10:34(NIV) reads:
Quote “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
The peace Jesus comes to bring is the peace that is between man and God but those who love darkness hate that peace and so when you're at peace with them you are at war with God.
meerkat wrote:
Quote Also 2 Tim 2:24-26 2 Timothy 2:24-26 (King James Version)
24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
That is a good scripture for me to contemplate. Thank you for bringing it up.
Kerwin………You make a lot of noise, but little understanding, So you say you are without sin, so you can quite sinning because of the fear that in you, right, . But Paul said The good he would do he did not do but the evil He would not do that he Did, O wretched man that i am , He says who can deliver me from the body of sin, He thanked God through Jesus Christ was delievered ., So who was He delievered sense he just admitted he did sin? It was through the death of Jesus paying for His sins, that he was thankful for. Then went on to say with my mind i serve the law of God, but with my body the law of sin and death. So you would say Paul was promoting sin in you mind. John said who ever says he has no sin (IS A LIAR) so where does that put you. And to accuse me or anyone else Here of saying it's OK to sin is a FLAT LIE. You simply are a false accuser, and your PRIDE and ARROGANCE has made you position yourself above others. And all liars will have there Part in the lake of fire, as well as all the fearful and unbelieving also.
Truth is you don't really FEAR GOD at all, that just talk that gives you position over others, IMO.
Now Back to the post i posted, still waiting for you answer as to what we are supposed to do with the scriptures i Posted, and foaming out fear threats, doesn't answer the questions. SHOULD WE TOSS THEM OR JUST IGNORE THEM, as you seem to do?
gene
Nick……same question to you < Which of the quoted scriptures I quoted should we TOSS OUT OR JUST IGNORE. Why can't you or Kerwin answer this when obviously you two are against them. Is it because you are not sure about your (FEAR) teachings. Please expound if you can.
love and peace to you………………………..gene
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