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Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2013,20:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2013,20:06)
The Hebrew says “worthless”, not “idols”.
Mike,
The Septuagint has the word for false gods.
Like I said, the ORIGINAL HEBREW says “worthless”, not “idols”.Have you been able to find the phrase “false gods” in the original texts of any of those many scriptures you posted yet?
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2013,02:10) Pierre,
Jehovah is both God of gods and Lord of lords…God, our Father and Lord Jesus Christ.
But wait! Jehovah is not only the God of gods and Lord of lords, but also the King of kings! So now we have the Father, the Son, Artaxerxes, and Nebuchadnezzar! What a happy little quadrinity!
In reality, Kathi, Jehovah is not only the God of us, but also the God of Jesus Christ. Jesus himself told us that he and we have the same exact God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 18 2013,22:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2013,20:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2013,20:06)
The Hebrew says “worthless”, not “idols”.
Mike,
The Septuagint has the word for false gods.
Like I said, the ORIGINAL HEBREW says “worthless”, not “idols”.Have you been able to find the phrase “false gods” in the original texts of any of those many scriptures you posted yet?
Mike,The Septuagint was translated by Jews. Neither language was dead at the time.
Kerwin, this is the part of the definition of the Greek word “eidolon” that Kathi didn't post:
1b) used of the shades of the departed, apparitions, spectres, phantoms of the mind, etc.
You of all people know what a shade is, right? A shade is a spirit/ghost/demon, right?
So in reality, the Greeks took the Hebrew phrase “the gods of the nations are worthless”, and changed it to “the gods of the nations are demons”.
Hmmmmm………….. Where else in scripture are we told that exact same thing?
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 18 2013,14:10) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 17 2013,08:53) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2013,12:04) True or False? 2 Samuel 7:22
“How great you are, Sovereign LORD! There is no one like you, and there is no God (elohim) but you, as we have heard with our own ears.
Kathino one argues that their is only one almighty like Jehovah God who is above all other gods ,just as the Israelites heard it and experienced it ,scriptures will confirm this over and over
Pierre,
Jehovah is both God of gods and Lord of lords…God, our Father and Lord Jesus Christ.
KathiWe went through this already ,you know why your concept of making the father and the son one unit TWO GODS IN ONE, you are still despaired in trying but it is falls as can be,
The scriptures are saying that “God is the God of gods , this means that their is no greater god than the father ,
Scriptures says that God is also “LORD. Of lords , this also means that their is no lord above him, and sins Christ his our Lord he is not above his own father because he his the LORD of Lords, got it
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 16 2013,02:58) Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2013,21:11) Quote What does “Only True God” mean? You and Mike believe there are other true gods, and if Jesus was claiming to be “a god” in John 10:35 why would he have said, “”Only True God”? –wj
If you understood what god means, (mighty one/strong one/powerful one, etc) then it would be easy to understand that he is the only one who is “mighty” RELATIVE to all others. He is ALL mighty. He is the only truly mighty one (compared to all others)
So David does that mean that everyone who is mighty is “a god”?I understand that men make them gods, but are they gods just because they may be mighty?
Then our President who is the most powerful man in the world is “a god” according to Mike and t8's theology.
But I dare say they would not call him a god. Or who knows, maybe they will.
WJ
No, they wouldn't call him a god, but I would imagine they would understand that to many, he is in fact a god. In virtually every respect.The celebrities/politicians of today have essentially become gods to people, with power, money, influence, and they are often almost worshiped because of these things. (It's not the worship that makes them gods (mighty ones) to people. Its the fact that they are mighty ones.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 16 2013,03:24) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2013,21:08) Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2013,20:08) Quote How can you and t8 claim “There is only One True God and yet claim there are other True Gods? –wj
The same way I claim that George, my life long friend, who I've known for decades, is my only TRUE friend, despite my other friends not being “false” friends.
Or the same way I could call Jehovah “the only true Savior” without implying that Jesus and others were “false” saviors.
Really?What does the word “ONLY” mean Mike?
If he is the “Only True Savour” then that must mean there are no other “true Savours”.
But as concerning God the Bible goes one step further and not only says “ONLY” but also “ONE”..
“ONLY ONE TRUE GOD”… John 17:3
Nevertheless you still haven't produced any Biblical evidence of these so-called gods who performed miraculous acts. The Magicians of Egypt does not work for you. Even David explains about the snakes and their trickery.
WJ
Wj, the problem with this post and the one before it to me, is you focus on the “only” and assume the true means: “the opposite of false.”True can mean: “Exactly conforming to a rule, standard, or pattern: trying to sing true B.”
I used to play in a band. There is B. And there is “close enough to b,” so lets just call it B.
Of course all of your friends, every one of them, isn't a false friend. So, why include the word “true” in front of it? To differentiate that one, from all others, to show that they alone (“only”) are a friend co pared to all others. Yes, all others are friends, just like everyone in the band is trying to play B. it's just that your buddy from 20 years ago, the one you know would give his life for yours, he is your only “true friend,” meaning, he measures up to the highest standard of the word “friend.”
It doesn't mean other friends are false friends.
There are a thousand shades of blue, that almost everyone would call blue. But perhaps to an artist, once the tiniest bit of red is put in, you have purple, despite it appearing blue. Or the tiniest bit of yellow mixed in, and technically, you have a shade of green. Green, is a mixture of blue and yellow. So, even if it looks blue and even if you can rightly call it blue and everyone will agree, in the strictest sense, it is green.
So, if someone shows you five different blues, and you pick out the only one that is true blue, that true blue, it doesn't mean the other blues are false blue or fake blue. Almost everyone would still call them all “blue.” It's just, they actually aren't in the strictest sense.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2013,18:29) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2013,09:03) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2013,20:07)
I have yet to find a commentator who says “that were no gods”, Keith. All commentators, including Gill that Kathi just quoted, understand that these demons were gods, but not GOD.
No Mike you should say…“Good. We agree then that these demons WERE gods (to them) who were NOT “God(s)” (at all)”.
Okay Keith,Here is the context, starting in chapter 31:
16 And the Lord said to Moses: “You are going to rest with your ancestors, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering.
No Mike,Once again in the scriptures there are no chapter divisions so read on and you will see the context….
They made me jealous by what is no god and angered me with their worthless idols. I will make them envious by those who are not a people; I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding. Deut 32:21 NIV
Why would you think that Moses believed these “foreign gods” were real when in the same breath he says they are “NO GODS” but worthless idols created by men?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2013,18:29) 18 And I will certainly hide my face in that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.
Why didn’t Moses say these so-called gods were wicked if they were real gods instead of just saying the people were wicked?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2013,18:29) 19 Now write down this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them. 20 …..and when they eat their fill and thrive, they will turn to other gods and worship them……..
21 I know what they are disposed to do, even before I bring them into the land I promised them on oath.[/color]
Again, context bears out they will turn to “what is no god” but rather worthless idols!Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2013,18:29) There is nothing in these words to suggest these “other gods” are “false gods” or “man-made idols”. The difference between us is that Jehovah calls them gods and I believe him. You don't.
Wrong, Jehovah through Moses says they are worthless idols which are no gods. The difference between us is I believe the scriptures that says “there is no god but one” while you have a Polytheistic view that says there are more than one God.Try again!
WJ
WJ
Quote They made me jealous by what is no god and angered me with their worthless idols. I will make them envious by those who are not a people; I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding. Deut 32:21 NIV what was it that if you say it in this way ;that the people in Moses time would have understood ,taken in account the way they were using their own language ;
KJV
They have moved me to jealousy
(8765) with [that which is] not
God
_; they have provoked me to anger
(8765) with their vanities
_: and I will move them to jealousy
(8686) with [those which are] not a people
_; I will provoke them to anger
(8686) with a foolish
nation
_.
NASB ©
'They have made
Me jealous
with what is not God
; They have provoked
Me to anger
with their idols
. So I will make them jealous
with those who are not a people
; I will provoke
them to anger
with a foolish
nation
,
HEBREW
Moyeka
lbn
ywgb
Me
alb
Maynqa
ynaw
Mhylbhb
ynwoek
la
alb
ynwanq
Mh (32:21)with [that which is] not
Godthis would be more truthful ;because they already knew their God to be God so that if they go to another they could not be that GOD that they have serve or serve then ,right
yesQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2013,18:29) Chapter 32 is the actual song, sang before these things happened, but sang in a past tense form as if they are things that did already happen. And 32:17 speaks about how these “foreign gods” are really demons.
But if you are unable to use your common sense to see that Moses was saying the new gods to whom they sacrificed were really “demons” in verse 17, then can you at least acknowledge that EVERY Trinitarian commentator quoted on Biblos.com understands it as “they sacrificed to gods who were not God?
This is the commentary of one of the most renowned commentators…1. What sort of gods they chose and offered sacrifice to, when they forsook the God that made them, v. 16, 17. This aggravated their sin that those very services which they should have done to the true God they did, (1.) To strange gods, that could not pretend to have done them any kindness, or laid them under any obligation to them, gods that they had no knowledge of, nor could expect any benefit by, for they were strangers. Or they are calledstrange gods, because they were other than the one only true God, to whom they were betrothed and ought to have been faithful. (2.) To new gods, that came newly up; for even in religion, the antiquity of which is one of its honours, vain minds have strangely affected novelty, and, in contempt of the Ancient of days, have been fond of new gods. A new god! can there be a more monstrous absurdity? Would we find the right way to rest, we must ask for the good old way, Jer. 6:16. It was true their fathers had worshipped other gods(Jos. 24:2), and perhaps it had been some little excuse if the children had returned to them; but to serve new gods whom their fathers feared not, and to like them the better for being new, was to open a door to endless idolatries. (3.) They were such as were no gods at all, but mere counterfeits and pretenders; their names the invention of men's fancies, and their images the work of men's hands. Nay, (4.) They were devils. So far from beinggods, fathers and benefactors to mankind, they really were destroyers (so the word signifies), such as aimed to do mischief. If there were any spirits or invisible powers that possessed their idol-temples and images, they were evil spirits and malignant powers, whom yet they did not need to worship for fear they should hurt them, as they say the Indians do; for those that faithfully worship God are out of the devil's reach: nay, the devil can destroy those only that sacrifice to him. How mad are idolaters, who forsake the rock ofsalvation to run themselves upon the rock of perdition!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2013,18:29) Can you acknowledge the parallel in 1 Corinthians 10:20? 20 No, but the sacrifices of Gentiles are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.
I acknowledge that Paul believed their worship of Idols was to demons but not that Paul believed they were gods but only gods to those who worshipped them. Where does Paul say that idols are real gods? Where is there a scripture that says demons are real gods, but rather evil spirits that associated themselves with the worship of idols?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2013,18:29) And can you acknowledge that Paul also called the most powerful demon of all “the god of this world”?
I can acknowledge that you and t8 love to give power to satan as a god yet the scripture you use says nothing about satan. In fact the scriptures say it is God that blinds the minds of them that believe not.Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with theirheart, and be converted, and I should heal them. John 12:39, 40
And even if you are right about that verse, Paul is in no way contradicting his own words that “there is no god but one” by saying satan is “a god”, but rather to the world he is “a god”.
My Bible tells me that all things are in Jesus hands and that he has “ALL Authority” in heaven and in earth.
Jesus never referred to satan as “a god”. But there are numerous NT scriptures that state man made idols are gods. The Caesar of his day was considered a god.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2013,18:29) I am well aware that the Trinitarian translators WANT the Bible to literally only speak of one god. They figure that if they can convince the unwitting that there LITERALLY exists only one god, they can nonsensically claim that the Son OF that one god actually IS that one god he is the Son OF. After all, he would HAVE TO BE that one god if there truly EXISTED only one, right?
Did you ever consider that maybe they see it that way because the Bible clearly says “THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD AND THERE ARE NO OTHERS BESIDE HIM”. How plain can that be?Mike, you and t8 accuse Trinitarians of a belief system originating from pagan origins, yet the two of you have a belief system that is rooted in Greek Mythology.
Greek mythology is the body of myths and teachings that belong to the ancient Greeks, concerning their gods and heroes, the nature of the world, and the origins and significance of their own cult and ritual practices. It was a part of the religion in ancient Greece. Modern scholars refer to and study the myths in an attempt to throw light on the religious and political institutions of Ancient Greece and its civilization, and to gain understanding of the nature of myth-making itself. Greek Mythology
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 17 2013,09:51) So in one breath, David said there is no elohim besides Jehovah, and also that Jehovah delivered Israel from Egypt and its elohim. (In what way did Jehovah deliver Israel from the gods of Egypt? What man-made idol did He rescue them from?)
Yet you acknowledge that the worship of those idols was the worship of demons. So God delivered them from those strange gods which were not gods at all but merely idols inspired by demons. If a demon told you he was a god would you believe him Mike?You and t8 should go back to the basics and read what the scriptures say about the desire of men to be gods…
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Gen 3:4, 5
Why do you choose to believe satans lies?
WJ
Quote (david @ Aug. 26 2013,16:37) (It's not the worship that makes them gods (mighty ones) to people. Its the fact that they are mighty ones.
Wrong David,Then that would mean that everything that is Mighty is a god.
The term mighty is subjective. To a 4 year old child his Father is mighty, but does that make his Father a god?
To a human an elephant is mighty, but does that make the elephant a god?
WJ
Quote (david @ Aug. 26 2013,16:48)
Wj, the problem with this post and the one before it to me, is you focus on the “only” and assume the true means: “the opposite of false.”
DavidWhy do you seek to redefine words? Only means “Only”.
If he is my “Only” True Friend then that means I have no other true friends.
ONLY….
ADJECTIVE:Alone in kind or class; sole: an only child; the only one left.Standing alone by reason of superiority or excellence.
ADVERB:
Without anyone or anything else; alone: room for only one passenger.I realize you must do this to justify your belief in other gods.
WJ
David
Quote (david @ Aug. 26 2013,16:48) But perhaps to an artist, once the tiniest bit of red is put in, you have purple, despite it appearing blue.
But it is no longer blue is it? Kind of like you, t8 and Mike believe these other gods are blue when they are not blue at all are they?
Quote (david @ Aug. 26 2013,16:48) So, if someone shows you five different blues, and you pick out the only one that is true blue, that true blue, it doesn't mean the other blues are false blue or fake blue.
Of course not, because they are all true blue. But if it was true that there is “Only One True Blue” then there would be no other true blue.Why is this such a grey area for you?
I am disappointed in you David, for this is elementary stuff. WJ
Its amazing at what length Polytheist will go to support their theory simply because to do other wise they would have to acknowledge Jesus is God.
But I am still yet to see where so-called gods exist scripturally, but rather they are gods made by humans through their worship whether it be idols or demons.
Here is a list of the false gods found in scripture…
8747 false gods
Any gods other than the Lord himself. Some of these divinities took the form of images, others were mythical. Some Israelites became involved in idolatrous worship of such gods. The book of Acts records attempts to deify human beings.
False gods associated with foreign nations in the OT
Amon, the chief god of Egypt See also Jer 46:25
Asherah, a Canaanite goddess Ex 34:13-14 Asherah was the consort of El, the chief Canaanite god. Wooden poles, perhaps carved in her image, were often set up in her honour and placed near other pagan objects of worship. See also Dt 7:5; Jdg 6:25-30 Gideon destroys an Asherah pole; 1Ki 14:15,23; 1Ki 15:13; 1Ki 16:33; 1Ki 18:19 Elijah summons 400 prophets of Asherah to Mount Carmel. King Josiah’s reforms: 2Ki 23:4-7,13-16
Isa 27:9; Jer 17:2; Mic 5:14Ashtoreth, a goddess of war and fertility Jdg 2:12-13 Ashtoreth, the consort of Baal, was associated with the evening star and was worshipped as Ishtar in Babylon and as Athtart in Aram. To the Greeks she was Astarte or Aphrodite and to the Romans, Venus. See also Jdg 10:6; 1Sa 7:3-4; 1Sa 12:10; 1Sa 31:10; 1Ki 11:5,33
Baal, a Canaanite and Phoenician god of fertility and rain Jdg 2:10-13 Baal, meaning “lord”, was pictured standing on a bull, a popular symbol of fertility and strength. Baal was associated with Asherah and Ashtoreth, goddesses of fertility.
Baal-Zebub, a popular deity of the Philistines Mt 12:24 pp Mk 3:22 pp Lk 11:15 Beelzebub is the Greek form of the Hebrew name “Baal-Zebub”, meaning “lord of the flies”. See also 2Ki 1:1-6,16-17
Bel, the chief deity of Babylon Isa 46:1 Bel was another name for the sun god, Marduk. Nebo, the god of learning and writing was the son of Marduk. See also Jer 50:2; Jer 51:44
Chemosh, the chief god of Moab 1Ki 11:7 See also Nu 21:29; 1Ki 11:33; 2Ki 23:13; Jer 48:7,13,46
Dagon, worshipped in Babylonia and Philistia Jdg 16:23 See also 1Sa 5:2-7; 1Ch 10:10
Molech, the chief deity of Ammon 1Ki 11:4-5 See also Lev 18:21 The practice of sacrificing children to Molech was common in Phoenicia and the region; Lev 20:2-5; 1Ki 11:7,33; 2Ki 23:10 Josiah destroyed the area where the altars for child sacrifice were located; 2Ki 23:13; Isa 57:9; Jer 32:35; Jer 49:1,3; Zep 1:5; Ac 7:43
Tammuz, a Babylonian fertility god Eze 8:14
The worship of false gods was a snare to God’s people
Their worship included disgusting rites 1Ki 14:23-24; 1Ki 19:18; Jer 7:31; Hos 13:2
Numerous attempts were made to stop the worship of Baal and other false gods Jdg 6:28-32; 1Ki 18:17-40 See also 2Ki 10:18-28; 2Ki 11:18; 2Ki 23:4-5,13
Attempts to stop false worship proved unsuccessful 2Ki 21:3 The word “Baal” was not orginally a proper name but came to be used as such. See also 2Ch 28:1-4; Hos 13:1-2
Warnings against and condemnation of, the worship of false gods
Ps 40:4; Da 3:29 Nebuchadnezzar came to realise the foolishness of worshipping false gods See also Ps 4:2; Jer 13:25; Jer 16:19; Am 2:4; Zep 1:4
The first Christians were confronted with the worship of Greek and Roman deities
Zeus and Hermes Ac 14:12 Zeus was the patron god of the city of Lystra and his temple was there. Paul was identified as the god Hermes (the Roman Mercury), Zeus’attendant and spokesman.
Artemis Ac 19:24-28 Artemis was the Greek name for the Roman goddess, Diana.
Castor and Pollux See also Ac 28:11 the two “sons of Zeus”, regarded as the guardian deities of sailors
Attempts to deify human beings
Ac 12:21-22; Ac 14:12-15; Ac 28:6 Source
WJ
“No idol is anything in the world” 1 Cor 8:4
World Renowned AT Robertson states…
No idol is anything in the world (ouden eidwlon en kosmwi). Probably correct translation, though no copula is expressed. On eidwlon (from eido), old word, see on Acts 7:41 ; Acts 15:20 ; 1 Thessalonians 1:9 . The idol was a mere picture or symbol of a god. If the god has no existence, the idol is a non-entity. This Gentile Christians had come to know as Jews and Jewish Christians already knew. No God but one (oudei qeo ei mh ei). This Christians held as firmly as Jews. The worship of Jesus as God's Son and the Holy Spirit does not recognize three Gods, but one God in three Persons. It was the worship of Mary the Mother of Jesus that gave Mahomet his cry: “Allah is One.” The cosmos, the ordered universe, can only be ruled by one God ( Romans 1:20 ).
That was the time they made an idol in the form of a calf. They brought sacrifices to it and held a celebration in honor of what their hands had made. Acts 7:41
Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. Acts 15:20
For they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 1 Thess 1:9
WJ
And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. Deut 4:28
And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. Deut 28:64
Howbeit every nation made gods of their own, and put them in the houses of the high places which the Samaritans had made, every nation in their cities wherein they dwelt. And the men of Babylon made Succothbenoth, and the men of Cuth made Nergal, and the men of Hamath made Ashima, And the Avites made Nibhaz and Tartak, and the Sepharvites burnt their children in fire to Adrammelech and Anammelech, the gods of Sepharvaim. 2 Kings 29-31
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