False gods/idols vrs the one true god

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2013,12:00)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 12 2013,20:41) Hi Mike: They did the same things:“by their secret arts”. Yep.  So I ask you again:  What human being, now or back then, can literally turn a wooden staff into a living snake? Please answer this time, Marty.

No human being in his own power can literally turn a wooden staff into a living snake. God gave Moses the power to do this, but what the magician did is an illusion. Satan and his false wonders.

Can you not read? The scripture that you quoted stated that the magicians did what they did “by their secret arts”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Okay Keith,

You didn't answer the last two posts on page 1, but that's okay. I want to keep this discussion focused anyway.

Right now, the first scripture was brought up by Kathi, so let's finish with that scripture.

What we do know is that demons were called gods by Moses.

And since Moses gave no indication that these demons were “false gods” or “so-called gods”, we have no scriptural reason to believe they were, do we?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 13 2013,19:09)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2013,12:00) What human being, now or back then, can literally turn a wooden staff into a living snake? No human being in his own power can literally turn a wooden staff into a living snake.

Now we're getting somewhere.  

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 13 2013,19:09)

God gave Moses the power to do this………

So it was the god of Moses who gave Moses the power to perform signs and wonders?

Boy, we're really getting close now, Marty.

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 13 2013,19:09)

…..but what the magician did is an illusion.

Dang!  You were almost about to make a very logical deduction when your “justification” powers kicked in.  

Marty, show me in the scripture where the staffs turning into living snakes was “an illusion”.  (Remember that scripture says, “they did the SAME THINGS”.)

Isn't it better for us to believe the SCRIPTURE rather than your “justification”?

[david]

Interesting thread.

I'd like to point out that the bible doesn't use words like polytheism or monotheism. This discussion would be quite different if we removed these trigger fear words from the discussion. These words carry baggage.

[david]

Quote

But tell me what MAN, magician or not, can turn wooden staffs into snakes?

People still do this trick in Egypt. Much like birds, when you bend back the head of certain snakes, they go into a trance like state and stay rigid until snapped out of it. Magicians use this principle to “hypnotize” birds, or to bring supposedly dead birds back to life. Or, to walk around with a stick and throw it to the ground turning it into a snake, supposedly.

I know this is not really central to the topic and am annoyed with myself for mentioning it.

[david]

Quote

magicians also did the same things by their secret arts:

I read a magic book that focused on the “Indian rope trick, an effect performed mostly in India or Egypt traditionally, or not at all. It's sort of an urban legend. But it was that book, if memory serves me, that mentioned that Egyptians today are still known to turn (apparently) wooden sticks into snakes, by their secret art. Ie: magic/knowledge of snakes.

[david]

Quote

How can you and t8 claim “There is only One True God and yet claim there are other True Gods?

–wj

The same way I claim that George, my life long friend, who I've known for decades, is my only TRUE friend, despite my other friends not being “false” friends.

[david]

Quote

What does “Only True God” mean? You and Mike believe there are other true gods, and if Jesus was claiming to be “a god” in John 10:35 why would he have said, “”Only True God”?

–wj

If you understood what god means, (mighty one/strong one/powerful one, etc) then it would be easy to understand that he is the only one who is “mighty” RELATIVE to all others. He is ALL mighty. He is the only truly mighty one (compared to all others)

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2013,12:23)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 13 2013,19:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2013,12:00) What human being, now or back then, can literally turn a wooden staff into a living snake? No human being in his own power can literally turn a wooden staff into a living snake.   Now we're getting somewhere.   Quote (942767 @ Aug. 13 2013,19:09) God gave Moses the power to do this……… So it was the god of Moses who gave Moses the power to perform signs and wonders? Boy, we're really getting close now, Marty. Quote (942767 @ Aug. 13 2013,19:09) …..but what the magician did is an illusion. Dang!  You were almost about to make a very logical deduction when your “justification” powers kicked in.   Marty, show me in the scripture where the staffs turning into living snakes was “an illusion”.  (Remember that scripture says, “they did the SAME THINGS”.) Isn't it better for us to believe the SCRIPTURE rather than your “justification”?

Hi Mike:

Magic, by their secret arts, false wonders

Surely, now you are going to prove that these so called miracles are real? Go right ahead.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[abe]

Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2013,17:51)

Interesting thread. I'd like to point out that the bible doesn't use words like polytheism or monotheism.  This discussion would be quite different if we removed these trigger fear words from the discussion.  These words carry baggage.

Hi David,

Idol·a·ter noun \ī-ˈdä-lə-tər\

Definition of IDOLATER
1
: a worshiper of idols
2
: a person that admires intensely and often blindly one that is not usually a subject of worship
See idolater defined for kids »
Variants of IDOLATER
idol·a·ter or idol·a·tor
Examples of IDOLATER

First Known Use of IDOLATER
14th century
Related to IDOLATER
Synonyms
gentile, heathen (or idolator), pagan
Related Words
atheist, giaour, infidel, misbeliever, miscreant, nonbeliever, unbeliever; non-Christian, non-Jew, non-Muslim; neo-pagan, polytheist

Near Antonyms

*Christian,* Jew, Muslim

Peace brother……………..

[david]

Quote (abe @ Aug. 14 2013,15:07)

Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2013,17:51) Interesting thread. I'd like to point out that the bible doesn't use words like polytheism or monotheism.  This discussion would be quite different if we removed these trigger fear words from the discussion.  These words carry baggage. Hi David, Idol·a·ter noun \ī-ˈdä-lə-tər\ Definition of IDOLATER 1 : a worshiper of idols 2 : a person that admires intensely and often blindly one that is not usually a subject of worship See idolater defined for kids » Variants of IDOLATER idol·a·ter or idol·a·tor Examples of IDOLATER First Known Use of IDOLATER 14th century Related to IDOLATER Synonyms gentile, heathen (or idolator), pagan Related Words atheist, giaour, infidel, misbeliever, miscreant, nonbeliever, unbeliever; non-Christian, non-Jew, non-Muslim; neo-pagan, polytheist Near Antonyms *Christian,* Jew, Muslim Peace brother……………..

We should use the word idolaters then.

Wj should claim that mike and t8 are idolaters, if that is the case. But obviously, neither of these claim to worship several gods. In fact, they might claim that wj does this.

The thing is, polytheism can mean: believing many gods exist, OR the worship of these gods. The bible doesn't mention “polytheism,” specifically. Idolatry is condemned in the bible.

T8/mike: believe the bible speaks of more than one god I think.
Wj: believe The father should be worshipped as god. Believe the son should be worshipped as god I think.

We can both attack the others positions calling names. It's better to look at what the bible says. If someone is an idolaters, then make the claim.

[terraricca]

why is it when we say that we believe that their are many gods in existence ,why does people instantly figure that we worship those gods ;

it like talking about country Presidents to someone and you say their are many countries that have a president ,then suddenly they say you must have multi nationalities ;ridicule for the least

[abe]

Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2013,20:56)

Quote (abe @ Aug. 14 2013,15:07) Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2013,17:51) Interesting thread. I'd like to point out that the bible doesn't use words like polytheism or monotheism.  This discussion would be quite different if we removed these trigger fear words from the discussion.  These words carry baggage. Hi David, Idol·a·ter noun \ī-ˈdä-lə-tər\ Definition of IDOLATER 1 : a worshiper of idols 2 : a person that admires intensely and often blindly one that is not usually a subject of worship See idolater defined for kids » Variants of IDOLATER idol·a·ter or idol·a·tor Examples of IDOLATER First Known Use of IDOLATER 14th century Related to IDOLATER Synonyms gentile, heathen (or idolator), pagan Related Words atheist, giaour, infidel, misbeliever, miscreant, nonbeliever, unbeliever; non-Christian, non-Jew, non-Muslim; neo-pagan, polytheist Near Antonyms *Christian,* Jew, Muslim Peace brother…………….. We should use the word idolaters then. Wj should claim that mike and t8 are idolaters, if that is the case.  But obviously, neither of these claim to worship several gods.  In fact, they might claim that wj does this.   The thing is, polytheism can mean: believing many gods exist, OR the worship of these gods.  The bible doesn't mention “polytheism,” specifically.  Idolatry is condemned in the bible.   T8/mike: believe the bible speaks of more than one god I think. Wj: believe The father should be worshipped as god.  Believe the son should be worshipped as god I think. We can both attack the others positions calling names.  It's better to look at what the bible says.  If someone is an idolaters, then make the claim.

Hi David,

Is.45:5   “I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;

6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other,

Peace brother…..

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 13 2013,20:51)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2013,12:23) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 13 2013,19:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2013,12:00) What human being, now or back then, can literally turn a wooden staff into a living snake? No human being in his own power can literally turn a wooden staff into a living snake.   Now we're getting somewhere.   Quote (942767 @ Aug. 13 2013,19:09) God gave Moses the power to do this……… So it was the god of Moses who gave Moses the power to perform signs and wonders? Boy, we're really getting close now, Marty. Quote (942767 @ Aug. 13 2013,19:09) …..but what the magician did is an illusion. Dang!  You were almost about to make a very logical deduction when your “justification” powers kicked in.   Marty, show me in the scripture where the staffs turning into living snakes was “an illusion”.  (Remember that scripture says, “they did the SAME THINGS”.) Isn't it better for us to believe the SCRIPTURE rather than your “justification”? Hi Mike: Magic, by their secret arts, false wonders Surely, now you are going to prove that these so called miracles are real?  Go right ahead.

The SCRIPTURES say that Pharaoh's priests turned staffs into snakes, water into blood, and produced frogs all over the land out of thin air.

What reason in the world would I have to NOT believe these things happened just as SCRIPTURE said they did?  What reason do YOU have to disbelieve these scriptures, Marty? (Please answer this question directly.)

Marty, you were SOOOOOO close to a logical deduction before.  You realize that no human being can do the things these priests did.  And you realize that Moses was only able to do these things by the power of his god.

Maybe it will help you if I add this verse into the equation:

Exodus 12:12 King James Version
For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

If “the gods of Egypt” were not involved in the signs and wonders, then why on earth would God “execute judgment” against them?  And HOW exactly could God “execute judgment” against inanimate, man-made idols?  (Better yet, how does an inanimate, man-made idol turn water into blood?)

Marty, is there any SCRIPTURAL reason to believe “the gods of Egypt” are NOT powerful, living beings who performed signs and wonders through Pharaoh's priests?

Can you see how close you came before you started “rationalizing” and “justifying” things?  You realized that Moses turned water into blood by the power of his god.  So why WOULDN'T your brain naturally take you to the conclusion that the priests of Egypt ALSO turned water into blood by the power of THEIR gods?

As for your question, the scripture say these things happened.  I believe those scriptures.  So I'd say it is YOU who needs to prove that those signs and wonders WEREN'T real.  Because there is NOTHING in the scriptural account of those events that even HINT at them not being real.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2013,20:08)

Quote How can you and t8 claim “There is only One True God and yet claim there are other True Gods? –wj The same way I claim that George, my life long friend, who I've known for decades, is my only TRUE friend, despite my other friends not being “false” friends.

Or the same way I could call Jehovah “the only true Savior” without implying that Jesus and others were “false” saviors.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (abe @ Aug. 13 2013,23:57)

Is.45:5   “I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;

Speaking of which…………..

Isaiah 43:11 KJV
I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

What do you do with a verse like that, Abe?  How do you reconcile those words against verses like this:

Nehemiah 9:27 KJV
……..when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.

Obadiah 1:21 KJV
And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

I really want to know, Abe.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2013,22:56)

We should use the word idolaters then.

And since none of us believe man-made IDOLS are gods of any kind, “idolater” is also a misnomer.

So let's do what David suggested, and keep the name-calling out of this. Let's instead focus ONLY on what the scriptures actually DO say on the subject at hand.

[david]

So mike, who are the gods then, demons? (Bad angels)

[abe]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2013,18:26)

Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2013,22:56) We should use the word idolaters then. And since none of us believe man-made IDOLS are gods of any kind, “idolater” is also a misnomer.   So let's do what David suggested, and keep the name-calling out of this.  Let's instead focus ONLY on what the scriptures actually DO say on the subject at hand.

Hi Mike,

(Quote)
“idolater” is also a misnomer.

Rev.19:9   Then he said to me, “Write, Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'” And he said to me, “These are true words of God.”

10Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus;  *Worship God*. For the  Testimony   of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Rev.22:8   I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to   Worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book.   *Worship God.”*

*Worship at the feet of the  angel  who showed me these things.*

There is One Spirit…………..Right?

Peace….

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2013,20:07)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 13 2013,12:20) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 12 2013,19:23) Deuteronomy 32:17 They sacrificed to demons, not God, to gods they had not known; to new gods who had recently come along, gods your ancestors had not known about. I have yet to find a commentator who says “that were no gods”, Keith.  All commentators, including Gill that Kathi just quoted, understand that these demons were gods, but not GOD. Mike He believed they were gods to those who worshiped them as gods. Good.  We agree then that these demons WERE gods who were NOT “God”.

No Mike you should say…

“Good.  We agree then that these demons WERE gods (to them) who were NOT “God(s)” (at all)”.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2013,20:07)

Now, which part of the verse tells us these demons were “false gods”, or “so-called gods”?  Which part of that verse tells us they were not gods at all?

This part…

KJV
As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are “CALLED” gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2013,20:07)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 13 2013,12:20) NASB Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that *there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. Why are those words not clear to you? He goes on to say, as indeed there ARE many gods, both in heaven and on earth.

No you left out part of it…

For though there be that are called gods…. And many translations have it…

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth… NKJV

There may be so-called gods both in heaven and on earth… NLT

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth… NIV

For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth- ESV

For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth… NWT

Even your NWT says they are “CALLED” gods not that they are gods.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2013,20:07)

He then goes on to say that Jesus is our ONE Lord, right?  Does this mean the Father – the one Jesus called “the Lord of heaven and earth” – is NOT our Lord?

No, and neither does that passage teach that the Father is our God and not Jesus, right?

You can’t have it both ways Mike? Jesus is One Lord and One God with the Father.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2013,20:07)

Does it mean that the earthly lords Paul told us to obey as if they were Christ himself were NOT really our Lords?

The difference is the Bible never says there is “ONLY ONE TRUE LORD” or “THERE IS NO LORD BUT ONE” does it?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2013,20:07)

Keith, why do YOU just keep posting a part of the story?  Why are the other words he said not clear to YOU?

It seems to me that you take parts of scriptures out of its context. Why are words like “ONLY” and “ONE” not clear to you?

WJ

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