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Hi all!
This thread was created to find evidence in the 66 books of the Bible that says true gods existed as real deities who had power other than Yahwey.
Mike and t8 continue to teach Polytheism rather than Monotheism which are two words that are apposed to each other.
They claim they believe and serve only one god while they play word games with capital letters and the definite article.
I want to find out myself if these so-called gods existed in the Bible or were they simply false gods that were nothing but idols created by man as objects of worship.
If these so-called gods were real then there ought to be some evidence that they had supernatural powers of their own.
Lets see if there is any scriptural evidence of powerful gods that wielded supernatural works that caused men to worship them or were they merely false gods created by man as objects of worship meaning they were not gods at all, but only the figment of their imaginations.
Blessings!
WJ
Here are some gods that were mentioned…
Artemis. Greek goddess (K. J. V. Diana) of fertility worshiped at Ephesus and elsewhere during the New Testament era. Her worship combined Greek, Roman, and Anatolian elements and dates back to ca. 1000 b.c. In Ephesus a temple was built in the third century b.c. to replace an earlier one that burned down and became known as one of the seven wonders of the ancient world. A well-known statue of Artemis emphasizes fertility. Paul's preaching directly challenged her worship and precipitated a riot that only official interaction could quell ( Acts 19:23-41 ). In the end the worship of Christ prevailed and the cult of Artemis disappeared from history.
Asherah. The people of Israel had been settled in the promised land for only a brief time before their attention turned to the deities of the Canaanites. The Book of Judges chronicles this apostasy. The people forsook the Lord God to serve Asherah and her husband Baal (Ashteroth is an alternative name for Asherah, Judges 2:13 ; 3:7 ).
The name “Asherah” and its variant spellings occur thirty-nine times in the Old Testament. In a number of these instances, Baal is mentioned along with Asherah. Evidence from Ugaritic mythologies and other texts suggests that the term refers to both the Canaanite goddess and cultic objects facilitating her worship.
That Baal and Asherah are mentioned together in several Old Testament passages suggests that the Canaanites and other peoples considered Asherah to be an important “high deity” along with Baal. The most explicit passage disclosing the close relationship between the two comes from the narrative about Ahab and Jezebel's confrontation with Elijah ( 1 Kings 18:1-19:18 ). Their endorsement of and participation in the worship of these Canaanite deities is the most extreme of any incidents related in Scripture concerning Israelite rulers who adopted the worship of these gods. In fact, Jezebel went so far as to insist that Ahab provide for the worship of her Phoenician deities.
Asherah was one of the three chief consort-goddesses within the Canaanite pantheon, along with Astarte (or Ashtaroth) and Anath. These three goddesses were jealous rivals. In the mythology, Asherah is portrayed as the consort of both El and Baal. In the Ugaritic myths she clearly emerges as the consort of El, the chief high god of the west Semitic pantheon. The Canaanite myths associated El with the source of fresh water, located in the distant west or north. On this basis El's consort was identified mainly as a sea-goddess. During the kingdom period of Israel's history she was the goddess at the side of Baal. On some occasions, however, she comes across as a fierce opponent of Baalparticularly when she thought she would lose her authority or influence among other members of the pantheon or when Baal preferred Anath instead of Asherah as his sexual intimate. The conflict and enmity between Baal and Asherah provided an explanation for the alternating two-climate season each year in the Mediterranean region. Source
I see no evidence here of these so-called gods having any power or performing any supernatural acts.
Notice: Jezebel believed in Baal and Asherah. Didn't Jesus say something about the spirit of Jezebel to one of the seven churches in revelation? HMMM!
Could it be that the spirit of Jezebel resides where there is the belief that other so-called gods were real?
WJ
Good thread idea, Keith!
I think this is a relevant passage to study in this regard:
Deuteronomy
15 “But Jeshurun grew fat, and kicked;
you grew fat, stout, and sleek;
then he forsook God who made him
and scoffed at the Rock of his salvation.
16 They stirred him to jealousy with strange gods;
with abominations they provoked him to anger.
17 They sacrificed to demons that were no gods,
to gods they had never known,
to new gods that had come recently,
whom your fathers had never dreaded.
18 You were unmindful of the Rock that bore you,
and you forgot the God who gave you birth.19 “The Lord saw it and spurned them,
because of the provocation of his sons and his daughters.
20 And he said, ‘I will hide my face from them;
I will see what their end will be,
For they are a perverse generation,
children in whom is no faithfulness.
21 They have made me jealous with what is no god;
they have provoked me to anger with their idols.It is important to note that the word 'god' is not always the same Hebrew word throughout this passage.
The following is John Gill's commentary on v. 17
Quote Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible They sacrificed to devils, not to God,…. Their sacrifices being continued, when it was the will of God they should cease, were reckoned by him not as, offered to him, but to demons, and to such that were not God; they being therein under the instigation of Satan, and doing his lusts, John 8:44; just as Pagans and Papists, worshipping idols under the influence and direction of Satan, are said to worship devils, and sacrifice to them, 1 Corinthians 10:20; and indeed setting up their own righteousness was sacrificing to their own net, and burning incense to their own drag, to an idol, and not to God: to which may be added, that whereas they trampled under foot the Son of God, and did despite to the Spirit of grace, by which Christ cast out devils, and offered himself without spot, they excluded two of the divine Persons in the Deity, and so worshipped not the true God, Father, Son, and Spirit:
to gods whom they knew not, to gods that came newly up; such as angels, into the worship of which they fell, as their writings testify (i), and to which the apostle seems to have respect, Colossians 2:18,
whom your fathers feared not; paid no regard unto, put no trust or confidence in; or, as the Targum of Jonathan,”with whom your fathers had nothing to do:''as they had not with the idol of man's righteousness, but wholly looked unto and trusted in the grace and righteousness of Christ, and expected salvation alone by him: the Gospel of righteousness and salvation by Christ was preached to our first parents in Eden's garden, which they embraced and believed in; Noah was an heir and preacher of the righteousness of faith, that is, of the righteousness of Christ, received by faith; that righteousness, which was what Abraham believed in, was imputed to him for his justifying righteousness; and Jacob waited for the Messiah, the salvation of God; in short all the Old Testament saints were saved by the grace of Christ, as we are; the idols, the works of men's own righteousness, are new deities they paid no deference to, placed no confidence in.
from here: http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/32-17.htm
Keith,
An investigation into the power of demons would be insightful here. If they can do supernatural type of things and be within people or influence people, the people themselves can appear like gods when the demon is working in a supernatural way through them.Kathi
I agree. As far as demons having power it is true they can give some power to man when possessed, but no where in the Bible do we see Jesus calling them gods. Once again they may be gods to men that have idolized them, but for us there is no God but one. Still I don't know of any scriptural evidence of supernatural power by these so-called gods.
WJ
I wonder what Mike and t8 does with scripture like that or this…
… They sacrificed to demons that were no gods,
WJ
Satan who is called the “god of this world” does have the power to deceive and power to kill the body through men who obey him, and those imaginary gods that you have mentioned as well as the Hindu gods, and false religions, and false prophets are the means through which the devil deceives men and hinders or stops them from believing the gospel. The false prophet according to the bible will have the power to deceive by even “calling fire from the sky”, but this is a delusion, just as the magicians duplicated some to the ten last plagues.
But as a Christian, I know that there is “only One True God”, and though they be those that are called “gods”. They are not “a god” to me. My eyes have been opened and I know that the serpent is in the garden.
Love in Christ<
MartyDeuteronomy 32:17
They sacrificed to demons, not God, to gods they had not known; to new gods who had recently come along, gods your ancestors had not known about.I have yet to find a commentator who says “that were no gods”, Keith. All commentators, including Gill that Kathi just quoted, understand that these demons were gods, but not GOD.
I mean really, how much sense does this make:
The sacrificed to demons who were not gods, (but instead they WERE) gods their fathers didn't know, new gods that came up.
Instead, the verse means that they sacrificed to new gods – gods their fathers hadn't known, and these new gods were really demons.
1 Corinthians 10:20
No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.Or will you also change Paul's words to say, “demons who were not gods at all”?
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 12 2013,18:22) The false prophet according to the bible will have the power to deceive by even “calling fire from the sky”, but this is a delusion, just as the magicians duplicated some to the ten last plagues.
Marty brings up a good one, Keith. He even includes his “justification” as to why the gods of Egypt weren't really gods, but instead “magicians” who “duplicated” some of the plagues Jehovah brought on Egypt.But tell me what MAN, magician or not, can turn wooden staffs into snakes? What MAN can turn water into blood? Or produce frogs out of thin air? These are things Pharaoh's priests definitely did – according to Moses himself, right? Moses didn't say they were “magic tricks” or “illusions”, “delusions”, or anything else, did he? Nope, he said “Pharaoh's priests did the same thing“, right?
And Jehovah not only called the gods of Egypt “gods”, but He even “brought judgment” against them for this display, right? How does Jehovah “bring judgment” upon a man made idol? And how does a man made idol produce frogs out of thin air in the first place?
By whose power did Pharaoh's priests do these remarkable signs and wonders? Marty? Keith?
Also,
Before we go too far, we should agree on a definition of “god/elohim/theos”, right?
All scholars agree that the earliest known and most basic meaning of “el” is simply “mighty one”. Jehovah is the Most High mighty one, but surely not the only mighty one.
Webster's defines it this way:
god
Any of various beings conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature.That definition accurately fits every NT instance of “theos”, and 99% of the OT mentions of “el” or “elohim”. (There are a couple instances where “el” is used as an adjective instead of a noun, and is most often translated as “mighty” or “great”.) Strong defines it as “might(y one)” to cover these rare adjectival uses.
So can we agree that “elohim” simply means “mighty one”? And that the English word “god”, as applied in scripture, means any of various beings conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature?
If not, then what is YOUR definition of “god”, Keith? And remember that the definition must fit all Biblical uses of “el”, “elohim”, and “theos”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2013,11:30) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 12 2013,18:22) The false prophet according to the bible will have the power to deceive by even “calling fire from the sky”, but this is a delusion, just as the magicians duplicated some to the ten last plagues.
Marty brings up a good one, Keith. He even includes his “justification” as to why the gods of Egypt weren't really gods, but instead “magicians” who “duplicated” some of the plagues Jehovah brought on Egypt.But tell me what MAN, magician or not, can turn wooden staffs into snakes? What MAN can turn water into blood? Or produce frogs out of thin air? These are things Pharaoh's priests definitely did – according to Moses himself, right? Moses didn't say they were “magic tricks” or “illusions”, “delusions”, or anything else, did he? Nope, he said “Pharaoh's priests did the same thing“, right?
And Jehovah not only called the gods of Egypt “gods”, but He even “brought judgment” against them for this display, right? How does Jehovah “bring judgment” upon a man made idol? And how does a man made idol produce frogs out of thin air in the first place?
By whose power did Pharaoh's priests do these remarkable signs and wonders? Marty? Keith?
Hi Mike:Go back to the scriptures and see that those who duplicated some of the plagues were “magicians.” “Magic”, Mike. What does that mean to you?
Love in Christ,
MartyReally Marty? Do you believe the guys who perform at kid's birthday parties really do magic? Or do you realize they are illusions?
What man, now or then, can LITERALLY turn a wooden staff into a real snake? Moses made it clear that these were not tricks by saying, “they did the same things”.
So if theirs were tricks, then Jehovah turning the staff into a snake was also a “trick”. Was it? If not, then remember that Pharaoh's priests “DID THE SAME THINGS”.
Exodus 7
10 Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake.11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts:
12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake.
Show me where theirs was a “magic trick”, Marty. Show me were Moses said it was “an illusion”.
Can you see how you've for years tried to “justify” these signs and wonders in your mind, simply because you don't WANT to believe the gods of Egypt were real gods – despite the fact that both Jehovah and Moses said they were?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2013,12:30) Really Marty? Do you believe the guys who perform at kid's birthday parties really do magic? Or do you realize they are illusions? What man, now or then, can LITERALLY turn a wooden staff into a real snake? Moses made it clear that these were not tricks by saying, “they did the same things”.
So if theirs were tricks, then Jehovah turning the staff into a snake was also a “trick”. Was it? If not, then remember that Pharaoh's priests “DID THE SAME THINGS”.
Exodus 7
10 Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake.11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts:
12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake.
Show me where theirs was a “magic trick”, Marty. Show me were Moses said it was “an illusion”.
Can you see how you've for years tried to “justify” these signs and wonders in your mind, simply because you don't WANT to believe the gods of Egypt were real gods – despite the fact that both Jehovah and Moses said they were?
Hi Mike:They did the same things:“by their secret arts”.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 13 2013,09:52) They claim they believe and serve only one god while they play word games with capital letters and the definite article.
We don't do that. The Bible does.
Jesus said, 'ye are gods'.
You say that there are no gods.
But we believe Jesus not you of course.Also, we concur with that which is written such as the one true God sent Jesus Christ and for us there is one God the Father.
Whereas you believe that which is not written that God is triune, that there is one God the Father, Son, Spirit, and that the one true God sent another who is the one true God.
Back to the drawing board WJ, I can refute your points with both arms tied behind my back.
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 13 2013,08:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2013,12:30) Really Marty? Do you believe the guys who perform at kid's birthday parties really do magic? Or do you realize they are illusions? What man, now or then, can LITERALLY turn a wooden staff into a real snake? Moses made it clear that these were not tricks by saying, “they did the same things”.
So if theirs were tricks, then Jehovah turning the staff into a snake was also a “trick”. Was it? If not, then remember that Pharaoh's priests “DID THE SAME THINGS”.
Exodus 7
10 Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake.11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts:
12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake.
Show me where theirs was a “magic trick”, Marty. Show me were Moses said it was “an illusion”.
Can you see how you've for years tried to “justify” these signs and wonders in your mind, simply because you don't WANT to believe the gods of Egypt were real gods – despite the fact that both Jehovah and Moses said they were?
Hi Mike:They did the same things:“by their secret arts”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
martyAC 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness
2TH 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
WHO ELSE BE SIDE SATAN AND HIS DEMONS AS A DARK SIDE
OR SECRET ARTS ALSO CALLED BLACK MAGIC AND OTHER NAMESQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 12 2013,19:23) Deuteronomy 32:17
They sacrificed to demons, not God, to gods they had not known; to new gods who had recently come along, gods your ancestors had not known about.I have yet to find a commentator who says “that were no gods”, Keith. All commentators, including Gill that Kathi just quoted, understand that these demons were gods, but not GOD.
MikeHe believed they were gods to those who worshiped them as gods.
Paul says that there are those who are “called lords and gods” yet he says..
NASB
Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that *there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.Why are those words not clear to you?
How can you and t8 claim “There is only One True God and yet claim there are other True Gods?
Anyone can clearly see the politics you guys play with the scriptures on this issue only to deny who Jesus really is.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 12 2013,19:23) I mean really, how much sense does this make: The sacrificed to demons who were not gods, (but instead they WERE) gods their fathers didn't know, new gods that came up.
Once again, they believed they were gods to them but they were merely idols that they worshiped.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 12 2013,19:23) Or will you also change Paul's words to say, “demons who were not gods at all”?
Paul doesn't contradict himself for he says…Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
But you don't believe this do you?
WJ
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 13 2013,00:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 13 2013,09:52) They claim they believe and serve only one god while they play word games with capital letters and the definite article. We don't do that. The Bible does.
Jesus said, 'ye are gods'.
No that is not true at all. Jesus claims no such thing, for he is quoting the Psalmist…Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? John 10:35
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 13 2013,00:25) You say that there are no gods.
But we believe Jesus not you of course.
No apparently you don't believe Jesus for he was not a Polytheist and never called anyone but the Father god including the Pharaoh of his day which was worshiped as god.Quote (t8 @ Aug. 13 2013,00:25) Also, we concur with that which is written such as the one true God sent Jesus Christ and for us there is one God the Father.
No you don't or you would accept Jesus own words when he says…And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3
What does “Only True God” mean? You and Mike believe there are other true gods, and if Jesus was claiming to be “a god” in John 10:35 why would he have said, ““Only True God”?
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 13 2013,00:25) Whereas you believe that which is not written that God is triune, that there is one God the Father, Son, Spirit, and that the one true God sent another who is the one true God.
You also believe in a trinity whereby you must be saved, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, right?Quote (t8 @ Aug. 13 2013,00:25) Back to the drawing board WJ, I can refute your points with both arms tied behind my back.
Maybe you should untie them because as far as I can see the words of Jesus and Paul refute your claim that there is more than one god.NASB
Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that *there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
WJ
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 14 2013,00:53) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 13 2013,08:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2013,12:30) Really Marty? Do you believe the guys who perform at kid's birthday parties really do magic? Or do you realize they are illusions? What man, now or then, can LITERALLY turn a wooden staff into a real snake? Moses made it clear that these were not tricks by saying, “they did the same things”.
So if theirs were tricks, then Jehovah turning the staff into a snake was also a “trick”. Was it? If not, then remember that Pharaoh's priests “DID THE SAME THINGS”.
Exodus 7
10 Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake.11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts:
12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake.
Show me where theirs was a “magic trick”, Marty. Show me were Moses said it was “an illusion”.
Can you see how you've for years tried to “justify” these signs and wonders in your mind, simply because you don't WANT to believe the gods of Egypt were real gods – despite the fact that both Jehovah and Moses said they were?
Hi Mike:They did the same things:“by their secret arts”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
martyAC 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness
2TH 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
WHO ELSE BE SIDE SATAN AND HIS DEMONS AS A DARK SIDE
OR SECRET ARTS ALSO CALLED BLACK MAGIC AND OTHER NAMES
And so the scripture that you quoted states: “Satan, with all powers and signs and false wonders.”Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Aug. 12 2013,20:41) Hi Mike: They did the same things:“by their secret arts”.
Yep. So I ask you again: What human being, now or back then, can literally turn a wooden staff into a living snake?Please answer this time, Marty.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 13 2013,12:20) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 12 2013,19:23) Deuteronomy 32:17
They sacrificed to demons, not God, to gods they had not known; to new gods who had recently come along, gods your ancestors had not known about.I have yet to find a commentator who says “that were no gods”, Keith. All commentators, including Gill that Kathi just quoted, understand that these demons were gods, but not GOD.
MikeHe believed they were gods to those who worshiped them as gods.
Good. We agree then that these demons WERE gods who were NOT “God”.Now, which part of the verse tells us these demons were “false gods”, or “so-called gods”? Which part of that verse tells us they were not gods at all?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 13 2013,12:20) NASB
Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that *there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.Why are those words not clear to you?
He goes on to say, as indeed there ARE many gods, both in heaven and on earth. He then goes on to say that Jesus is our ONE Lord, right? Does this mean the Father – the one Jesus called “the Lord of heaven and earth” – is NOT our Lord? Does it mean that the earthly lords Paul told us to obey as if they were Christ himself were NOT really our Lords?Keith, why do YOU just keep posting a part of the story? Why are the other words he said not clear to YOU?
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