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Good Evening Colter,
To say that my argument is disingenuous does indeed baffle me. Are you saying that I am insincere, hypocritical, devious, or dishonest? Which one is it?
I have this feeling that what I put forth is indeed bothering you. Why does it matter to you so much since you don't even believe that the bible is in anyway reliable?
I am HIDING BEHIND scriptures….PLEASE, you have got to be kidding me.
So when I am told that things are a sign, I should understand the dragon to be a literal dragon and that there will be a woman in heaven with the moon under her feet?
I am the one who is giving scripture to support my understanding. I find it VERY interesting that people aren't coming forth and answering my questions or refuting my points, as well as bringing forth those scriptures that tell us that Satan is indeed a fallen angel.
What bothers you is that I have exposed the lies and deceit that false religions, Mainstream Christianity and your UB BOOK have created.
Your right, there were demons in the days of Isaiah, they were known as false gods, like Ishtar/Venus. Jeremiah and Revelation tells us clearly that these false gods, these demons, had no power, they could not talk and they could not walk.
Re 9:20 The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood–idols that cannot see or hear or walk.
I am curious, when you say that Lucifer existed as a celestial being before Isaiah, is this source solely from your UB book, because I have not seen anything with all the reading I have been doing on this subject that supports that in anyway.
Who is talking about God's will failing because of a talking animal? Yah's will is to take the created ignorant mind of man and refine it into His image. The first step is to allow mankind to see his own weaknesses. The first step is to allow us to make mistakes so we can learn from them, because even though we have a brain and the potential to do great things, we can do nothing without Him. We cannot even breathe without the power and wisdom of Yah.
I am here to debate the bible Colter, not the UB and how it shows the bible to be unreliable. The bible does say that we are cursed. I hardly believe that we can call the recent cyclone, the tornadoes, and the earthquake part of a friendly universe.
Ge 4:11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand.
Jer 23:10 The land is full of adulterers; because of the curse the land lies parched and the pastures in the desert are withered. The prophets follow an evil course and use their power unjustly.
Ga 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”
Re 22:3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.
Colter it is the false teachers that took the original scriptures and corrupted them. I honestly, NOT disingenuously, believe that the bible does not say that Satan or the Devil is a fallen angel. I have already shown lots of evidence of this, why don't you attack that and not my character sir.
You have been trying to tell me that I should believe in the Satan of the bible as Lucifer. But you say in your last sentence that he is defeated and gone. The adversary in Revelation lives on. You want me to believe in the Dragon, the Satan of chapter 12, but I am suppose to believe that he no longer exists. Your rather confusing Colter. So I am suppose to believe in that Lucifer is the Dragon according to Revelation but I am not suppose to believe what Revelation tells me about the Dragon? Say what?? Would you like to clarify this for me.
Colter, as you can probably tell from my post you have, as you like to call it, tweaked me a little. But it is all good, I know you probably weren't trying to insult my character. Your a good guy, and I know that right now we will more then likely just continue to disagree on this, but at least one day we know we will be united in the truth.
Peace to you, Jodi
Hi Jodi,
I agree with your understanding of the word satan.
You put forth your argument so much more eloquently than I could that
I do not say much in reference to your posts.If every time the Hebrew word satan or satanas was used in the bible it was read
as adversary, instead as portrayed as a person, there would have been much less confusion.Tim
Greetings Jodi….You present a factual accounting of scripture with respect to your argument on whether fallen angels are responsible for the actions of men…and I must say you have got me reading scripture again….In our system of justice “The Devil Made Me Do It “defence was sumarily rejected over and over again….This speaks volumes with respect to your argument…As we go through scripture there are many examples of physical possession of Demons that manefested in various forms….And were susequently removed….If we can keep in mind that the adversary( satan et.al.)is the spirit of the air ways…would it presumptuous to say he has the ability to broadcast( as if he was a radio transmitter)a message that sublimitaly appeals to human vanity,anger and in general behavior…I know you might consider this a reach and maybe even somewhat childish….As I grow older Iam finding more and more that my interlectual reasoning which is driven largely by vanity and pride is giving way to a simpler form of deductive reasoning….
Quote (Colter @ May 15 2008,04:08) Hi Jodi, * Yes, the UB expands tremendously on the history of our world and the fall of our planetary prince 200,000 years ago. Those who have been indoctrinated into Bible fetishism are unable to learn anything new from the UB because they have to mush pride invested in any one of thousands of doctrines strung together using the Bible. The Jews that Killed Jesus used the same excuse, they hid behind the scripture which they knew to be faulty anyway.
What Jesus taught was superior to Judaism, that hurt their pride so they also conjured up this arrogance about exposing lies, they also had a dim view of God cursing and punishing people. They misapplied the ordinary ups and downs of living in a material world as somehow about (themselves).
* The dragon of Rev. is a fragment of a story concerning something which already occurred, John was shown a panorama of history, past, present and future. Sin is a choice, Jesus taught as much but people don't want to face that so the original sin curse theory becomes a scapegoat.
*If there was no Satan, or the Hebrews ran out of words, and Jesus perpetuated that malfunction by pretending to talk to false Gods, then it is the Bible that has mislead the world. There is a very small fringe of people who practice this shell game of changing the meaning of the words because you don't like what the books say.
Colter
Thanks Colter for clarify some stuff,In the bible, in any book, it is a simple fact that one word can have similar meanings.
When Yeshua was casting out demons, he was casting out unclean spirits, the spirit of madness which we see that God sends onto people and their offspring from Deuteronomy, as punishment for disobeying. All sicknesses and diseases have come upon this world as a punishment. Madness is another one of those.
When we see in Revelation 9:20 the word demon, it is being related to a false god. The Greeks believed that demons could bring good and bad things. Apparently the Israelites and later the Jews were influenced by other cultures to believe that demons were real. This is where such stories as Enoch, the Testament of Solomon, and the Book of Jubilees come from. Yah many times sent angels to inflict man. We know that many times the Israelites strayed and worshiped false gods. It honestly seems quite certain that they confused themselves as well into believing that sometimes those evil messengers God sent were acting on their own accord, falsifying the truth that God alone creates darkness and calamity.
These angels that were inflicting the Israelites began to be called by some, fallen angels, when in all reality they were the evil messengers' Yah was sending.
Psalms 78:49 He sendeth on them the fury of His anger, Wrath, and indignation, and distress — A discharge of evil messengers.
Colter your comment about it being easy for people just to 'change' the meaning of the words in the bible because they don't like them is IMO ridiculous. Your putting the bible in a box, like it is this perfect little present. Unfortunately the bible is not like the UB written recently in one language, the language you speak. Are you seriously telling people that we should just TRUST the English translation of the bible and not investigate the original language of the scriptures we are reading? Should we also deny the fact that different cultures and different languages create barriers of proper understanding and translation from one to the other? I could see why you would want us to be so ignorant. It is obvious that the UB writers were ignorant themselves and speaking from Mainstream Christianity and the King James bible. You don't like people exposing mistranslations because in doing so it makes your book all the more a work of science fiction.
Sorry Colter, just how I see it.
Peace to you, Jodi
OOps, I meant to say in my last post that we all know that one word can have different meanings, they can also have similar meanings as well!
My point however, was that one word can have different, even several different meanings.Quote (Colter @ May 15 2008,08:20) Quote (Jodi @ May 16 2008,02:47) OOps, I meant to say in my last post that we all know that one word can have different meanings, they can also have similar meanings as well! My point however, was that one word can have different, even several different meanings.
The problem Jodi is that they already had the term “adversary” in their language but according to your reasoning they took that word a step further, gave it a proper name, a volitional personality and it's own dialogs. Even the Demons, which you argue were simple disease or the rebellious person, became second person entities with dialogs of their own.It's has been the Bible that has confused people, not us “liars” have you have accused.
Colter
They are not liars, they're understanding is a lie. They are without Yah's direction, so they are lead away in untruth. I always need to remind myself, that it has been Yah's plan to keep the truth hidden. He keeps truth hidden by allowing man to make up his own mind of what the truth is. Pagan converts who made up the early church were not being led by God, neither were the Jews who wrote Enoch, and the Testament of Solomon. This is how the bible we have today and the Christian doctrine of today is obscured from the truth.I am sorry Colter but it all makes sense to me. Deuteronomy tells me that Yah alone brings darkness and creates calamity. False religion says otherwise. I go by what I see the scriptures are telling me, not by what I was raised to believe. Colter have you ever heard of people who have split personalities? I watched a documentary at school in College where a woman was MAD, she had three separate personalities. At different times during the day she could change into anyone of the three personalities, one of her personalities was even a man and she would change her clothes into mens close and she would speak completely different. If your ignorant and superstitious, then you would say that she is possessed by a devil. If you read scripture and understand science you see that God can make the brain capable of doing anything. Did you see the woman on 20/20 last week? She could recite EVERY detail of her whole entire life. Give her a day and she could tell you exactly what she did, what she wore and any current events of that day. The human brain is capable of being amazing, and crazy. There is no need of a fallen angel to possess someone in order for a person to speak as if they are a whole other separate person. The people in the bible who are possessed by an evil spirit are not rebellious people they are people suffering from a disease.
Quote (Colter @ May 15 2008,08:20) Quote (Jodi @ May 16 2008,02:47) OOps, I meant to say in my last post that we all know that one word can have different meanings, they can also have similar meanings as well! My point however, was that one word can have different, even several different meanings.
The problem Jodi is that they already had the term “adversary” in their language but according to your reasoning they took that word a step further, gave it a proper name, a volitional personality and it's own dialogs. Even the Demons, which you argue were simple disease or the rebellious person, became second person entities with dialogs of their own.It's has been the Bible that has confused people, not us “liars” have you have accused.
Colter
The problem is that the same word used for what you believe to be a fallen angel, is the same word that God and man are called.
The original Hebrew word means adversary, and nowhere in the bible is the adversary called a sinful angel or a fallen angel. How many times do we have to go over this?Why didn't the translators just translate the Hebrew word to the English word adversary? Why did they take the Hebrew word which is phonetically saw-tawn, and make a whole new English proper name Satan out of it? If the bible specifically told us in the text that at times an adversary represented a sinful angel who wanted to be God, then maybe I would think that the translators knew what they were doing, and had the correct doctrine. But this is not the case. It seems quite clear to me that they improperly changed it to fit their OWN beliefs that they had made up.
Jodi! I believe you are making to much out of this, just because the King James says Satan which means Adversary, all is false religion? Give me a break. Now if I would say green is red and red is green that would be a different story. But Satan means the same so what is so wrong to say Satan, but if you want to say Adversary that is your proagrative. But I find it very wrong for you to say that it is a wrong doctrine. No, it means the same. Why the translaters did that, I dont know, but there is no difference, since it means the same. The Origin of Satan
Lucifer and other Fallen Angels
Who was Lucifer?
Lucifer was the Anointed Cherub. Anointed means to be set apart for Gods Divine purpose. It also means “bestowal of Gods divine favor”, and “appointment to a special place or function.”
God had given Satan a certain amount of power and authority. But he perverted that power. Lucifer wanted to exalt himself above God… rather than “just” being the Angel of God.If God is so good, then why did he create Satan?
Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways, but iniquity was found in him. It was not put there by God. Lucifer created it.
( this is found in Ezekiel 28:15 )Like man, the angels were created perfect, and with a free will.
Satan was lifted up because of his beauty, he corrupted the wisdom by reason of his brightness (This is in Ezekiel 28:17)
Ezekiel 28:12 (KJV)
“Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.”
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.”
This is not an earthly king, as the word “cherub” is only used in references to angels.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
The word “covering” is from the Hebrew word cakak, and means: to entwine, to fence in, cover over, protect, defend, hedge in, (source “The complete word study Old Testament”)
Was Lucifer’s job to protect the very earth he corrupted? Was this one of his duties that gave him so much pride?
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
0 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Question:
“Where does Satan and the fall fit into all of this? He must have been cast down before Adam and Eve were created because he was there to tempt Eve in the Garden? Was there, could there have been, a pre-Adamic age – and surly this would have been a catastrophic event?
Best regards
Amanda S. Q. 6/19/01Answer:
Satan was cast out of heaven after Adam and Eve were created, because God said the Creation was still “very good” on day 6 after man had been created.There was nothing and no one here before Adam and Eve. Read my page disproving the Gap Theory for more information.
Isaiah 14:12
“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Satan wanted to be God. The Bible tells us in 2nd Corinthians 4:4 that Satan has become the “god of this world”. And Revelation 20:10 tells us that he will be eternally punished for it.15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
When Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, one third of all the angels were cast out with him. (Rev.12:4,9)
Lucifer became Satan, and the fallen angels became Demons.
Peace and Love Irene
Colter,
Ask t8 for editing rights so you don't have to cut and paste your quotes.If you ask in the Help Desk area he will be sure to get it. It makes life a lot easier for you and for us when we read your posts.
Mandy
Quote (seek and you will find @ May 15 2008,12:33) Jodi! I believe you are making to much out of this, just because the King James says Satan which means Adversary, all is false religion? Give me a break. Now if I would say green is red and red is green that would be a different story. But Satan means the same so what is so wrong to say Satan, but if you want to say Adversary that is your proagrative. But I find it very wrong for you to say that it is a wrong doctrine. No, it means the same. Why the translaters did that, I dont know, but there is no difference, since it means the same. The Origin of Satan Lucifer and other Fallen Angels
Who was Lucifer?
Lucifer was the Anointed Cherub. Anointed means to be set apart for Gods Divine purpose. It also means “bestowal of Gods divine favor”, and “appointment to a special place or function.”
God had given Satan a certain amount of power and authority. But he perverted that power. Lucifer wanted to exalt himself above God… rather than “just” being the Angel of God.If God is so good, then why did he create Satan?
Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways, but iniquity was found in him. It was not put there by God. Lucifer created it.
( this is found in Ezekiel 28:15 )Like man, the angels were created perfect, and with a free will.
Satan was lifted up because of his beauty, he corrupted the wisdom by reason of his brightness (This is in Ezekiel 28:17)
Ezekiel 28:12 (KJV)
“Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.”
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.”
This is not an earthly king, as the word “cherub” is only used in references to angels.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
The word “covering” is from the Hebrew word cakak, and means: to entwine, to fence in, cover over, protect, defend, hedge in, (source “The complete word study Old Testament”)
Was Lucifer’s job to protect the very earth he corrupted? Was this one of his duties that gave him so much pride?
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
0 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Question:
“Where does Satan and the fall fit into all of this? He must have been cast down before Adam and Eve were created because he was there to tempt Eve in the Garden? Was there, could there have been, a pre-Adamic age – and surly this would have been a catastrophic event?
Best regards
Amanda S. Q. 6/19/01Answer:
Satan was cast out of heaven after Adam and Eve were created, because God said the Creation was still “very good” on day 6 after man had been created.There was nothing and no one here before Adam and Eve. Read my page disproving the Gap Theory for more information.
Isaiah 14:12
“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Satan wanted to be God. The Bible tells us in 2nd Corinthians 4:4 that Satan has become the “god of this world”. And Revelation 20:10 tells us that he will be eternally punished for it.15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
When Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, one third of all the angels were cast out with him. (Rev.12:4,9)
Lucifer became Satan, and the fallen angels became Demons.
Peace and Love Irene
Mrs., Thanks for your response,The weather is so beautiful out here in Oregon today, I'm going to copy off what you have posted and go outside and enjoy the sunshine and read it, trying to keep an open mind.
Hope your feeling well,
Peace to you, JodiHi Jodi,
The beautiful weather you are experiencing has made it's sunny way up to Washington as well! It's gorgeous outside! I've opened all our windows and even have some reggae playing!
Surf's up dude,
Mandy
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 15 2008,14:24) Hi Jodi, The beautiful weather you are experiencing has made it's sunny way up to Washington as well! It's gorgeous outside! I've opened all our windows and even have some reggae playing!
Surf's up dude,
Mandy
Just checked in Mandy,I love reggae too, especially Hawian reggae! We listen to a lot of Steel Pulse and Natural Vibrations around here. Enjoy the weather!
Jodi and Mandy You lucky Kids, having all that sunshine. All we are having is Rain and we will all week this week. We had so much rain this Spring. Our Grass is nice and green, and we did get our flowers and Georg put them up yesterday in between the rain. Our Hummingbird has come back too and was looking for Food. I got some water started on the stove and forgot about it. The smell got my attention, the whole Kitchen was full of smoke and the pot with water was gone. I had a pot full of crystallized black Mass. Looked kind of cool, but the smoke and smell was something else.
Sorry I am way of the subject, but a guess we all do that sometimes.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (seek and you will find @ May 15 2008,19:14) Jodi and Mandy You lucky Kids, having all that sunshine. All we are having is Rain and we will all week this week. We had so much rain this Spring. Our Grass is nice and green, and we did get our flowers and Georg put them up yesterday in between the rain. Our Hummingbird has come back too and was looking for Food. I got some water started on the stove and forgot about it. The smell got my attention, the whole Kitchen was full of smoke and the pot with water was gone. I had a pot full of crystallized black Mass. Looked kind of cool, but the smoke and smell was something else.
Sorry I am way of the subject, but a guess we all do that sometimes.
Peace and Love Irene
Good evening Irene,I think its good to talk a little about something else other then the bible from time to time. I am sure there are many things we have in common and that we would enjoy each others company very much. So long as we are not talking about Satan
We are B.B.Q'n some beef stuffed with breaded rice right now, I can't wait to eat. Jesse, my husband, got a new B.B.Q'r last weekend and he is enjoying using it. It is such a beautiful evening out here tonight.
Enjoy your flowers, we just planted ours last weekend. Well I am headed back outside, my husband and I are in the middle of playing washers.
Peace and love to you, Jodi
Jodi! Playing washers? What is that? Hmmmm that B.B.Q. sounds really good. We had leftover Roast with Sour Cream Gravy our Grandsons favorite Gravy. You are so right that we have to talk about what we have in common sometimes. If we would count all the things that we have in common I think it would out number tht we don't have in commom. For that I am very thankful for. We have such a loving Heanvenly Father that understands us and has mercy on us for our shortcomings. I joined this website to fellowship rather then to debate and am happy when we are united. We are all God's Children and He loves us all. So that is what we are to do, in that spirit I say to you, I will always Love you and respect you.
With all my Love IreneIsaiah 14:12
“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Satan wanted to be God. The Bible tells us in 2nd Corinthians 4:4 that Satan has become the “god of this world”. And Revelation 20:10 tells us that he will be eternally punished for it.15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
When Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, one third of all the angels were cast out with him. (Rev.12:4,9)
Lucifer became Satan, and the fallen angels became Demons.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,
So when did the angels get thrown out of heaven?
Is it not shown in prophecy written long after Jesus was busy casting demons out?
We are not meant to add our own private speculations to what is written and teach them are we?
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