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Quote (seek and you will find @ May 10 2008,16:10) I understand Jodi, sincerely angry.
I'm still waiting for an explanation on Rev. 12.
Sincerely patient, Mr.
I believe I never said I was angry, just irritated and frustrated. Honestly, I would say I'm more amused then angry.Hopefully I will have a post for you later on tonight. Thanks for being patient.
Greetings Jodi…..My post was in response to a previous post of yours, which suggested to me that the spirit of YAH was mean in nature….To Err is human….Perhaps I misunderstood you…needless to say we agree that the very nature of is God love…..
theodrej As far as all the post that Jodi has made, the way I have understood, that God will send you evil to test you. I do question that, now God who can not look at Sin can send us evil? He will let Satan test us, just like He tested Jesus. That is all I have to say about this subject, since I do not really want to get into a to negative conversation with anyone.
Peace and Love Mrs.
My Husbands signature is IM4TruthI think that the test that He let satan give Job was pretty evil in my opinion.
I mean killing all his family and animals, and wrecking his life is not evil?
If that is considered good, then who needs evil?Tim
Timothy! God did permit Job to be tested in a big way, but through Satan not God Himself, that is the point I was trying to make. God will allow it, and in Job's case God knew that Job was not going to falter of course. God cannot look at sin, that is why when Jesus took all the sin's of mankind on Him, God turned away for the first time in Jesus life. That is why He cried out:” My God, My God why have you forsaken Me.”
God does not send us evil, He will permit us to be tested, yes. Since the Angels had a free will, like we do, they sinned. Lucifer and 1/3 of all Angels went with him. To believe that Lucifer never existed is not according to the Scriptures in my Bible. I really said to much here, but Whoever responds to me with this, please do it an a civil way. No Name calling.
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (seek and you will find @ May 10 2008,07:07) Jodi If you don't believe that Satan is a real spirit being, just because of a name someone has given him, that you think is wrong, than he, Satan, has succeeded in putting doubt into your mind. Would you be happier if he was called Adversary?
See this is just the sort of thing I am talking about. This comment shows me that you have not bothered to read my understanding that I have shared, because if you'd had you wouldn't of asked me such a stupid question. Talk about a one sided conversation. It certainly does not seem that you are here to respectfully listen to other points of view and try to understand where someone else is coming from.Tell me specifically just how a fallen angel has put doubt in my mind, as to his existence? Due to the fact that I am consciously unaware to this fallen angel's influence then how can I be held responsible for his influences?
Quote (seek and you will find @ May 12 2008,09:57) God does not send us evil, He will permit us to be tested, yes.
Exodus 4:11 “So the Lord said to him,” Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I the Lord?”Isaiah 45:6-7 “That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things.”
1Ki 22:23 And now, lo, Jehovah hath put a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and Jehovah hath spoken concerning thee — evil.'
2Ch 18:22 And, now, lo, Jehovah hath put a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of these thy prophets, and Jehovah hath spoken concerning thee — evil.'
Jud 9:23 and God sendeth an evil spirit between Abimelech and the masters of Shechem, and the masters of Shechem deal treacherously with Abimelech,
Psalms 78:49 He sendeth on them the fury of His anger, Wrath, and indignation, and distress — A discharge of evil messengers.
Jer 35:17 therefore thus said Jehovah, God of Hosts, God of Israel: Lo, I am bringing in unto Judah, and unto all inhabitants of Jerusalem, all the evil that I have spoken against them, because I have spoken unto them, and they have not hearkened, yea, I call to them, and they have not answered
Jer 44:2 `Thus said Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel: Ye — ye have seen all the evil that I have brought in on Jerusalem, and on all the cities of Judah, and lo, they [are] a waste this day, and there is none dwelling in them,
How then to you explain these scriptures Mrs.
I have been working on quite an extensive post on the development of the doctrine of Lucifer as a fallen angel. Figuring out the best way to organize it is taking me a long time. Checking in right now and seeing Mrs., say, “To believe that Lucifer never existed is not according to the Scriptures in my Bible,” is getting me very anxious to get it done.
Mrs. it is very apparent that their are some details you do not know. So I hope you will have an open mind to what is written below and my post to come.
Here are a few bibles that do not contain the word Lucifer.
YLT 14:12 How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations.
ASV 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst lay low the nations!
NRS 14:12 How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!
You might be interested to know that the word Lucifer is a Latin word that represents the planet Venus. Once again Lucifer is Latin for the planet Venus. The place where you will see Lucifer identified as a fallen angel is ONLY in fictitious writing. A Roman Catholic farmer and craftsman in 1589 named Peter Binsfeld, further developed upon other writers on the classification of demons. He takes the Latin word for the planet Venus and makes it into a proper name for the fallen angel of arrogance. Binsfeld takes the 7 deadly sins and classifies 7 fallen angels as relating to each sin.
The King James bible came about 100 years after this, where the fanciful stories were being well accepted in the RCC, no doubt influencing the translators to take a Latin word and use it as a proper name in English from an original Hebrew text.
Simply put Lucifer represents the planet Venus, which in ancient Babylon and other nations, the planet Venus was likened to many false gods, many of which in story, fell from heaven. Ishtar the Babylonian Queen of Heaven also known as Venus, was no exception to this fall. In Isaiah the King is being likened to the planet Venus and a false god.
Simply put, some of the 'early church father's such as Origen and Tertullian theorized that Isaiah is also talking about a fallen angel. If you would like to believe in those pagan converts of whom it is obvious to me that they held to their previous pagan ideologies when trying to understand scripture, that is your choice. But I believe it is crucial for you to know that the only place where you will find Lucifer as a fallen angel is everywhere but the bible. If you have never looked into Dante's The Divine Comedy written between 1308-1321 or Milton's Paradise Lost written 1667, you might begin to see where the concept of Lucifer as an angel who fell from heaven became such a powerful source of indoctrinization.
Timothy! I just read something on the Internet about Lucifer and Satan. To much to repeat, but I do know that there are demons around that influence us to do evil, that tested Jesus. That tested me, and because of it, I have learned what is good and what is evil. I do not believe that God created Satan, so He had to be somebody else. Rather then going on and on about it, I will let God's Holy Spirit reveale it to me, when God wants me to have that understanding. Until then good luck.
Peace and Love Mrs.If people want to believe that there are fallen angels who inflict us and manipulate us to do evil that is certainly their choice. However, I believe we should establish what evidence we have in the bible of such a doctrine, and how sound that evidence is. I would think that for something as serious as this doctrine is, for people to teach that it is indeed the truth, we should be able to find some pretty solid evidence.
Sorry for all the scriptures, I just felt at this point it is necessary for us to take seriously each scripture that holds the word adversary/ satan.
What you will find in these scriptures is that we are directly told that God is an adversary, that God's messengers are adversaries and that mankind is an adversary. NOT ONCE, however are we told that the adversary represents a sinful angel. Even when we look at the adversary in Job we are not told that he is a sinful angel. This adversary does not have any powers either. Job's understanding is that Yah is inflicting him. Yah is inflicting Job with whatever the adversary to Job desires. The adversary has been walking the land, and he goes along with the sons of God who are going to present themselves to the Lord, which is what is said when God's children go to meet with the Levitical priest. There is no proof in the book of Job of fallen angels. The only speaking of an adversary falling is in Luke, where Yeshua says, “I was beholding the Adversary, as lightning from the heaven having fallen;” and in Revelations where it says, “9 and the great dragon was cast forth — the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world — he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.” The adversary in Luke is not said to be a sinful angel who was punished and sent down to earth, it simply says that the adversary was AS lightening from the heaven having fallen.
As for Revelation, The reason why I have said that the use of Revelation 12 as proof of a fall of a sinful angel from heaven to earth, is pathetic, is because Revelation 12 is a GREAT SIGN of complex symbols of something that was to come from the time of John’s vision. To take a verse in this chapter and argue that it is literal and proof of sinful angels being cast to earth and allowed to mate with us and inflict us, is IMO ridiculous. If this is what people want to believe that is their choice, but to teach it as the Truth is just not o.k. Just as the woman in heaven arrayed with the sun and moon under her feet is a symbol, so is the dragon being cast forth. For a person to say that verses 7-9 has dual meaning where one meaning represents their doctrine is neither proof nor can be determined as the truth.
When I read through these verses and the verses that surrounded them, I did not find anything that even remotely revealed the story of a jealous sinful angel being cast to earth and who has been allowed by YHWH to inflict us and successfully tempt us without our knowing it. The story just simply does not exist in the bible.
Le 18:18 `And a woman unto another thou dost not take, to be an adversary, to uncover her nakedness beside her, in her life.
Nu 10:9 `And when ye go into battle in your land against the adversary who is distressing you, then ye have shouted with the trumpets, and ye have been remembered before Jehovah your God, and ye have been saved from your enemies.
Nu 22:22 and the anger of God burneth because he is going, and a messenger of Jehovah stationeth himself in the way for an adversary to him, and he is riding on his ass, and two of his servants [are] with him,
Nu 22:32 and the messenger of Jehovah saith unto him, `Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? lo, I — I have come out for an adversary, for [thy] way hath been perverse before me,
1Sa 2:32 and thou hast beheld an adversary [in My] habitation, in all that He doth good with Israel, and there is not an old man in thy house all the days.
1Sa 29:4 And the heads of the Philistines are wroth against him, and the heads of the Philistines say to him, `Send back the man, and he doth turn back unto his place whither thou hast appointed him, and doth not go down with us into battle, and is not to us for an adversary in battle; and wherewith doth this one reconcile himself unto his lord — is it not with the heads of those men?'
2Sa 19:22 And David saith, `What — to me and to you, O sons of Zeruiah, that ye are to me to-day for an adversary? to-day is any man put to death in Israel? for have I not known that to-day I [am] king over Israel?'
2Sa 24:1 And the anger of Jehovah addeth to burn against Israel, and [an adversary] moveth David about them, saying, `Go, number Israel and Judah.'
2Sa 24:13 And Gad cometh in unto David, and declareth to him, and saith to him, `Do seven years of famine come in to thee in thy land? or three months art thou fleeing before thine adversary — and he pursuing thee? or are three days' pestilence in thy land? now, know and see what word I take back to Him sending me.'
1Ki 5:4 `And now, Jehovah my God hath given rest to me round about, there is no adversary nor evil occurrence,
1Ki 11:14 And Jehovah raiseth up an adversary to Solomon, Hadad the Edomite; of the seed of the king [is] he in Edom;
1Ki 11:23 And God raiseth to him an adversary, Rezon son of Eliadah, who hath fled from Hadadezer king of Zobah, his lord,
1Ki 11:25 and he is an adversary to Israel all the days of Solomon, (besides the evil that Hadad [did]), and he cutteth off in Israel, and reigneth over Aram.
1Ch 21:1 And there standeth up an adversary against Israel, and persuadeth David to number Israel,
Es 3:10 And the king turneth aside his signet from off his hand, and giveth it to Haman son of Hammedatha the Agagite, adversary of the Jews;
Es 7:6 And Esther saith, `The man — adversary and enemy — [is] this wicked Haman;' and Haman hath been afraid at the presence of the king and of the queen.
Es 8:1On that day hath the king Ahasuerus given to Esther the queen the house of Haman, adversary of the Jews, and Mordecai hath come in before the king, for Esther hath declared what he [is] to her,
Es 9:10 ten sons of Haman son of Hammedatha, adversary of the Jews, they have slain, and on the prey they have not put forth their hand.
Es 9:24 because Haman son of Hammedatha the Agagite, adversary of all the Jews, had devised concerning the Jews to destroy them, and had caused to fall Pur — that [is] the lot — to crush them and to destroy them;
Job 1:6 And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst.
Job 1:7 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Whence comest thou?' And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `From going to and fro in the land, and from walking up and down on it.'
Job 1:8 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart against My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God, and turning aside from evil?'
Job 1:9 And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `For nought is Job fearing God?
Job 1:12 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, all that he hath [is] in thy hand, only unto him put not forth thy hand.' And the Adversary goeth out from the presence of Jehovah.
Job 2:1 And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst to station himself by Jehovah.
Job 2:2 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Whence camest thou?' And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `From going to and fro in the land, and from walking up and down in it.'
Job 2:3 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart unto My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God and turning aside from evil? and still he is keeping hold on his integr
ity, and thou dost move Me against him to swallow him up for nought!'
Job 2:4 And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `A skin for a skin, and all that a man hath he doth give for his life.
Job 2:6 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, he [is] in thy hand; only his life take care of.'
Job 2:7 And the Adversary goeth forth from the presence of Jehovah, and smiteth Job with a sore ulcer from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
Job 6:23 And, Deliver me from the hand of an adversary? And, From the hand of terrible ones ransom me?
Job 16:9 His anger hath torn, and he hateth me, He hath gnashed at me with his teeth, My adversary sharpeneth his eyes for me.
Job 31:35 Who giveth to me a hearing? lo, my mark. The Mighty One doth answer me, And a bill hath mine adversary written.
Ps 7:4 If I have done my well-wisher evil, And draw mine adversary without cause,
Ps 44:10 Thou causest us to turn backward from an adversary, And those hating us, Have spoiled for themselves.
Ps 74:10 Till when, O God, doth an adversary reproach? Doth an enemy despise thy name for ever?
Ps 78:42 They have not remembered His hand The day He ransomed them from the adversary.
Ps 78:61 And He giveth His strength to captivity, And His beauty into the hand of an adversary,
Ps 107:2 – Show Context
Let the redeemed of Jehovah say, Whom He redeemed from the hand of an adversary.
Ps 109:6 Appoint Thou over him the wicked, And an adversary standeth at his right hand.
Isa 59:19 And they fear from the west the name of Jehovah, And from the rising of the sun — His honour, When come in as a flood doth an adversary, The Spirit of Jehovah hath raised an ensign against him.
Isa 63:9 In all their distress [He is] no adversary, And the messenger of His presence saved them, In His love and in His pity He redeemed them, And He doth lift them up, And beareth them all the days of old.
Jer 10:18 For thus said Jehovah: Lo, I am slinging out the inhabitants of the land at this time, And have been an adversary to them, So that they are found out.
La 1:5 Her adversaries have become chief, Her enemies have been at ease, For Jehovah hath afflicted her, For the abundance of her transgressions, Her infants have gone captive before the adversary.
La 1:7 Remembered hath Jerusalem [In] the days of her affliction and her mournings, all her desirable things that were from the days of old, In the falling of her people into the hand of an adversary, And she hath no helper; Seen her have adversaries, They have laughed at her cessation.
La 1:10 His hand spread out hath an adversary On all her desirable things, For she hath seen — Nations have entered her sanctuary, Concerning which Thou didst command, `They do not come into the assembly to thee.'
La 2:4 He hath trodden His bow as an enemy, Stood hath His right hand as an adversary, And He slayeth all the desirable ones of the eye, In the tent of the daughter of Zion, He hath poured out as fire His fury.
La 4:12 Believe not did the kings of earth, And any of the inhabitants of the world, That come would an adversary and enemy Into the gates of Jerusalem.
Da 7:25 and words as an adversary of the Most High it doth speak, and the saints of the Most High it doth wear out, and it hopeth to change seasons and law; and they are given into its hand, till a time, and times, and a division of a time.
Am 3:11 Therefore, thus said the Lord Jehovah: An adversary — and surrounding the land, And he hath brought down from thee thy strength, And spoiled have been thy palaces.
Zec 3:1 And he sheweth me Joshua the high priest standing before the messenger of Jehovah, and the Adversary standing at his right hand, to be an adversary to him.
Zec 3:2 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary: `Jehovah doth push against thee, O Adversary, Yea, push against thee doth Jehovah, Who is fixing on Jerusalem, Is not this a brand delivered from fire?'
Zec 8:10 For, before those days there hath been no hiring of man, Yea, a hiring of beasts there is none; And to him who is going out, And to him who is coming in, There is no peace because of the adversary, And I send all men — each against his neighbour.
Mt 4:10 Then saith Jesus to him, `Go — Adversary, for it hath been written, The Lord thy God thou shalt bow to, and Him only thou shalt serve.'
Mt 12:26 and if the Adversary doth cast out the Adversary, against himself he was divided, how then doth his kingdom stand?
Mt 16:23 and he having turned, said to Peter, `Get thee behind me, adversary! thou art a stumbling-block to me, for thou dost not mind the things of God, but the things of men.'
Mr 1:13 and he was there in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by the Adversary, and he was with the beasts, and the messengers were ministering to him.
Mr 3:23 And, having called them near, in similes he said to them, `How is the Adversary able to cast out the Adversary?
Mr 3:26 and if the Adversary did rise against himself, and hath been divided, he cannot be made to stand, but hath an end.
Mr 4:15 and these are they by the way where the word is sown: and whenever they may hear, immediately cometh the Adversary, and he taketh away the word that hath been sown in their hearts.
Mr 8:33 and he, having turned, and having looked on his disciples, rebuked Peter, saying, `Get behind me, Adversary, because thou dost not mind the things of God, but the things of men.'
Lu 4:8 And Jesus answering him said, `Get thee behind me, Adversary, for it hath been written, Thou shalt bow before the Lord thy God, and Him only thou shalt serve.'
Lu 10:18 and he said to them, `I was beholding the Adversary, as lightning from the heaven having fallen;
Lu 11:18 and if also the Adversary against himself was divided, how shall his kingdom be made to stand? for ye say, by Beelzeboul is my casting forth the demons.
Lu 13:16 and this one, being a daughter of Abraham, whom the Adversary bound, lo, eighteen years, did it not behove to be loosed from this bond on the sabbath-day?'
Lu 22:3 And the Adversary entered into Judas, who is surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve,
Lu 22:31 And the Lord said, `Simon, Simon, lo, the Adversary did ask you for himself to sift as the wheat,
Joh 13:27 And after the morsel, then the Adversary entered into that one, Jesus, therefore, saith to him, `What thou dost — do quickly;'
Ac 5:3 And Peter said, `Ananias, wherefore did the Adversary fill thy heart, for thee to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back of the price of the place?
Ac 26:18 to open their eyes, to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the authority of the Adversary unto God, for their receiving forgiveness of sins, and a lot among those having been sanctified, by faith that [is] toward me.
Ro 16:20 and the God of the peace shall bruise the Adversary under your feet quickly; the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen!
1Co 5:5 to deliver up such a one to the Adversary for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Co 7:5 Defraud not one another, except by consent for a time, that ye may be free for fasting and prayer, and again may come together, that the Adversary may not tempt you because of your incontinence;
2Co 2:11 that we may not be over-reached by the Adversary, for of his devices we are not ignorant.
2Co 11:14 and no wonder — for even the Adversary doth transform himself into a messenger of light;
2Co 12:7and that by the exceeding greatness of the revelations I might not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of the Adversary, that he might buffet me, that I might not be exalted overmuch.
1Th 2:18 wherefore we wished to come unto you, (I indeed Paul,) both once and again, and the Adversary did hinder us;
2Th 2:9 [him,] whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,
1Ti 1:20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I did deliver to
the Adversary, that they might be instructed not to speak evil.
1Ti 5:15 for already certain did turn aside after the Adversary.
Re 2:9 I have known thy works, and tribulation, and poverty — yet thou art rich — and the evil-speaking of those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but [are] a synagogue of the Adversary.
Re 2:13 I have known thy works, and where thou dost dwell — where the throne of the Adversary [is] — and thou dost hold fast my name, and thou didst not deny my faith, even in the days in which Antipas [was] my faithful witness, who was put to death beside you, where the Adversary doth dwell.
Re 2:24 `And to you I say, and to the rest who are in Thyatira, as many as have not this teaching, and who did not know the depths of the Adversary, as they say; I will not put upon you other burden;
Re 3:9 lo, I make of the synagogue of the Adversary those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but do lie; lo, I will make them that they may come and bow before thy feet, and may know that I loved thee.
Re 12:9 and the great dragon was cast forth — the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world — he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.
Re 20:2 and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary, and did bind him a thousand years,
Re 20:7 And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison,When I studied with the Christadelphians we had about a half dozen Abrahamic Faith believer's join us. We had a great time fellowshipping. That is, until the subject of Satan came up. You probably can guess what happened…..yup…..the group split up. What a shame it was. But this is a hot topic, for sure. People are willing to dis-associate with other's over it.
I'm certainly not saying Jodi is one of these, but I can see her passion and dedication to the subject. It consumes her as the trinity subject did me for many years. I appreciate that intensity.
Jodi! I checked some of the Scriptures and I am wondering what Bible you are using, because those scriptures that I did check. You say Adversary while the King James says Satan.
I would type up more, but I am sorry that I can't my Arthritis is getting my fingers to painful.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (seek and you will find @ May 14 2008,00:59) Jodi! I checked some of the Scriptures and I am wondering what Bible you are using, because those scriptures that I did check. You say Adversary while the King James says Satan.
I would type up more, but I am sorry that I can't my Arthritis is getting my fingers to painful.
Peace and Love Irene
I'm sorry about your arthritis Mrs., I hope it feels better.I used the the Young's Literal Translation.
Mrs., I wanted to ask you the question of what sorts of sins due fallen angels influence us to do? We see through out the bible from Genesis onward that these sins are related to man's own heart, from everything to evil thoughts, murder, theft, slander, and sexual immorality. The bible makes a pretty clear case as to our own nature causing these sins. So what sin's do those fallen angels influence us to do?
Mark 7:1-23
56 And wherever he went–into villages, towns or countryside–they placed the sick in the marketplaces. They begged him to let them touch even the edge of his cloak, and all who touched him were healed. 1 The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus and 2 saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were “unclean,” that is, unwashed. 3 (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.) 5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?” 6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” 9 And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 11 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” 14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.'” 17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods “clean.”) 20 He went on: “What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.'”Just reading through this something struck me and that was the thought of how odd it is that Yeshua is talking about man's evils in conjunction with the Pharisees washing their hands. What do the two of them have to do with each other? Washing hands before we eat is a good thing, it keeps us from eating bad germs and I am sure that a lot of germs were around back then.
I did a search and to no big surprise I found that sure enough Hebrews and later Jews believed that water purification of the self was necessary to ward of evil spirits and demons. Yeshua was specifically speaking here of those purification rituals and how they are useless because nothing from outside a man can cause him to sin.
We are never told in the bible that the identity of Satan and the Devil is a fallen angel, this has been an assumption made by Christians due to ancient false beliefs that the Hebrews adapted from neighboring nations.
The bible does however reflect satan and the devil to be the personification of sin.
1Jo 3:8 he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil;
Ro 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
Ro 8:3 for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh,
Ro 8:7 because the mind of the flesh [is] enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself,
1Co 15:56 and the sting of the death [is] the sin, and the power of the sin the law;
Heb 2:14 Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death — that is, the devil –
I believe what we see from the serpent in Genesis to the dragon in Revelations, is the growth of human sin from a single person Adam into not only sinful culture but sinful ruling governments. When God gives people over to their sins, their sins do nothing but grow in more wickedness as we are told in Romans 1.
You see my problem here, is that I can see sin. I can see where EVERY wickedness of man comes from, it can be easily identified, and no surprise it is exactly as how Yeshua says it is, from man's own heart and HIS inability to control himself, and HIS inability to refrain from selfishness, and HIS inability to feel compassion for others. So when you say watch out for fallen angels I find that to be a waist of a person's time, because their sin is coming from their own nature and they need God not to expel a fallen angel, but for Him to change our nature. I think what can be confusing is that when the bible talks about Satan and the Devil it appears that it is talking about something greater then just man's own nature causing him to do evil, and that is because it is, but it is not what people think it is. It is not a band of fallen angels, it is the growth of one man's sin into a a great power, such as the Roman government and it's army, or Hitler' regime.
Ephesians 6:10 As to the rest, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might; 11 put on the whole armour of God, for your being able to stand against the wiles of the devil, 12 because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places; 13 because of this take ye up the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to resist in the day of the evil, and all things having done — to stand.
I believe Paul is speaking here of the authority of the Roman government, and warning of the future pers
ecution. 'Heavely places' represent the High places of authority of which the Roman government had over the Jews. Paul himself was in prison under Nero, the first Christian persecutor, at the time he wrote letters to Ephesus.Nero is Satan, in a much higher form then when Yeshua called Peter Satan. Nero's wickedness can be identified in his heart. Nero's heart and actions were an adversary unto man and particularly Christians and to God. Nero is wicked not because of a fallen angel named Satan, but because Nero himself is a Satan from his own nature.
I hope this is all making some sense to you Mrs. I don't expect you to see it as I do, but I hope at least you can begin to see where it is my understanding is coming from when I read the scriptures.
Peace to you, Jodi
“Live and let live”. Funny you would say this, Colter – I was thinking the very same thing.
However I'm intrigued now by other's who have subjects that seem to haunt them if they don't study them out. I used to feel this way about the trinity, conception and preexistence. When you are in the passionate stage of proving your ideas, you bring out the best of your study. And we all get to benefit – I love it.
Hey Jodi, have you ever read any of Frank Peretti's books? They are on demons and angels. You would be a believer if you read them, let me tell you. Frank is a famous author now but I knew him back when he was best buds with our youth pastor. He used to tell his stories at our christian youth camps during the summer. I remember we were all on the edge of our seats during the stories – he used sound effects and everything. You could almost smell the sulfer coming out of the demonds nostrils as he told the story……..
Anyway, they are good reads whether or not you believe. My favorite one is his first one, called, “This present darkness”. Check it out.
Revelation 12:9 and the great dragon was cast forth — the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world — he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.
So I believe most of us would probably say that the ‘old serpent’ mentioned in Revelation is referring to the serpent from the Garden of Eden.
Who or what was the serpent in the Garden?
What scriptures best support that the serpent was indeed a fallen angel in disguise?
Are there any scriptures that point to the serpent being something other then a fallen angel?
I believe the key to understanding who or what the serpent represents is to look at the punishment given to the serpent.
Genesis 3:14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, “Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”[/b]
This is very interesting. I think several questions need to be asked. First and foremost it is widely believed that the serpent in the Garden is being possessed by a fallen angel, so why would God be punishing the serpent and not the fallen angel? As well, if the serpent was being possessed by an outside source, then why would God even need to punish the serpent? Or, I guess it could be that the fallen angel had the ability to make himself into a serpent and so there was no innocent serpent to begin with. If this is the case I need someone to explain how THROUGH scripture the punishment to the serpent makes sense to a fallen angel?
The serpent in the Garden is being referred to as the most crafty creature Yah created on earth. This raises a problem I believe for those who try and pin a fallen angel onto the serpent. If the serpent's craftiness was a fallen angel, then the serpent could not be referred to as the most crafty creature of the creation. However if the serpent represented the human mind, then it fits, because as we know, the simple truth is out of all the creatures that God created on this earth in the beginning, man is by far the most crafty.
In the punishment we see the serpent being spoken of in relation to the present creation, and as being cursed above other animals. I believe that we can see how man is indeed cursed. How can we relate to a fallen angel being cursed? Man is inflicted with hardship, disease and death. Have angels been given this curse as well?
I cannot find any scriptures that relates the punishment and the enmity to involve a fallen angel. However I do see the punishment and enmity reflect something unto man.
Romans 16:18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.
Philippians 3:18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.
Psalms 44:25 For bowed to the dust hath our soul, Cleaved to the earth hath our belly.
Here we see that the belly is represented as being our soul and that it cleaves to the dust or to the earth. Sound familiar?
Psalms 119:25 [Daleth.] Cleaved to the dust hath my soul, Quicken me according to Thy word.
Micah 7: 17 They lick dust as a serpent, as fearful things of earth, They tremble from their enclosures, Of Jehovah our God they are afraid, Yea, they are afraid of Thee.
Ps 81:12 And I send them away in the enmity of their heart, They walk in their own counsels.
Ro 8:7 because the mind of the flesh [is] enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself,
Ephesians 2:14 for he is our peace, who did make both one, and the middle wall of the enclosure did break down, 15 the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace, 16 and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, having slain the enmity in it,
Is it no surprise that in the bible not one time is a fallen angel referred to as being a serpent? Man however is referred to being a serpent several times.
Ge 49:17 Dan will be a serpent by the roadside, a viper along the path, that bites the horse's heels so that its rider tumbles backward.
Ps 140:3 They make their tongues as sharp as a serpent's; the poison of vipers is on their lips. Selah
Jer 51:34 “Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon has devoured us, he has thrown us into confusion, he has made us an empty jar. Like a serpent he has swallowed us and filled his stomach with our delicacies, and then has spewed us out.
Psalms 58:1 Do you rulers indeed speak justly? Do you judge uprightly among men? 2 No, in your heart you devise injustice, and your hands mete out violence on the earth. 3 Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies. 4 Their venom is like the venom of a snake, like that of a cobra that has stopped its ears,
Mt 23:33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
Mt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
Mt 12:34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
Lu 3:7John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
Ro 3:13 “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
We have IMO quite a bit of good scriptural evidence showing that the serpent represents man. I would imagine those who are going to try and argue against this are going to have a hard time finding scriptural support being given the fact the the term 'fallen angel' cannot even be found in the bible. So I am quite interested in what they will come up with, if they come up with anything at all.
What is everyone else's thoughts….anyone…anyone?
Sorry Jodi, all I have to offer on this subject is chips and dip!
I certainly have thought about it and I prefer to believe there isn't a devil-person. So, I admire your study and what you have found out.
Thanks,
MandyQuote (Colter @ May 14 2008,13:54) As an FYI, anti Lucifer or Satan advocates often point out Jerome Vulgate translation wherein he Used Lucifer as being synonymous with “day star”. Isaiah was incorporating the well known story of the planet Venus and it's representation of being the Devil in his indictment against Lucifer and his betrayal of our God and our world. People who try to make Lucifer into a simple Babylonian king fail to realize that the name Lucifer had been around for a long time in regions outside of the Hebrew religion. Isaiah was a bit of a thorn in the side of the Hebrew priest class and quite frankly they did not like what he had to say nor did they believe him. That problem is still prevalent today. There is no “day star” on the Babylonian kings list, Isaiah was referring to the Devil or Lucifer.
It's obvious that Eve was dealing with a volitional personality no matter how many hoops the anti-devil crowd try to get us to jump through. It's obvious that Satan is referred to as a personality not a synonym, and it's obvious that the BOR recaps the Devils history.
Colter
The word “Lucifer” comes from 2 Latin words:Lux (=light) + ferous (=to bear or carry). Thus the name “Lucifer” means:Light-bearer or Light-bringer.
The original Hebrew text is llyh,transliterated 'Heylel', which is only found once in the bible, so it does not give us much to go on. Colter do you have a source that tells us that the Hebrew llyh means a fallen angel named Lucifer?
To say that Isaiah by using the word llyh, meaning morning star, is also representative of a sinful angel has no scriptural base what so ever. Isaiah could have been calling the King of Babylon a morning star simply because what Kings wore in those days was not only a signature of status and power, but it was quite shiny and blingy.
Yes you are right Colter the adversary is referred to as a personality, it is the personality of man when he has in mind the will of his flesh and not the will of God, as the bible so clearly shows.
Here is the PERFECT example
Mt 16:23and he having turned, said to Peter, `Get thee behind me, adversary! thou art a stumbling-block to me, for thou dost not mind the things of God, but the things of men.'
Jodi! Maybe if you would use the King James translation of the Bible, you might come to a different understanding of who the Devil and Demons are. Just my thought.
Peace and Love IreneMrs. I happen to use all the translations available on crosswalk.com
I really like to cross reference scriptures and see the difference given in various translations.The three I use the most are, the New International Version because it is the one given unless you select another, and then Young Literals Translation and the New Kings James.
Before I found crosswalk, all I had was my New King James bible. This was the very bible that brought me doubt.
So I really don't know what to tell you.
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