Fallen angels

Participant

Quote (theodorej @ May 03 2008,05:46)

So then do the people have a choice, in the matter of allowing the spirits to give them mental disorders?

May 3, 2008 at 4:16 pm#88709

Participant

Quote (Jodi @ May 04 2008,03:59)

Quote (theodorej @ May 03 2008,05:46)

So then do the people have a choice, in the matter of allowing the spirits to give them mental disorders?

Greetings Jodi…..I believe they do….There are exceptions that would come under the title of what could be considered a hereditery state of sin….and I must say this is an area that I cannot speak to with any degree of proven knowledge,but would like to approach this with an opened mind and an eagerness to learn…Having said that the basis for my assumption/theory is that in Word of God several passages elude to The sins of a generation being visited on another generation of those who hate me…..Your opinion as well as any factual evidence on either side of this theory would be greately appreciated….

May 5, 2008 at 10:53 am#88791

Cato

Participant

A couple of thoughts:
Possesion is an interesting topic, first off, I feel obsession (I use the term obsessed rather the posessed as this state is not one of total control, but extreme influence) is possible, having seen a case which I could explain in no other way. It is often confused with mental illness as some symptoms are similar, also the mentally ill are more vulnerable to outside influence then those of a more healthy stable state of mind. Also may I add that those who take certain drugs or are under the steady influence of alcohol are likewise easier to influence. Now as to what these obsessing entities may be, who knows? Fallen angels, qlippothic demons, astral thought forms, other orders of life? In traditional Christianity we like to look at everything as black and white, God, and Satan. In all probability if such spiritual forces exist they are diverse and varied in types and ethics like life on earth itself.

May 5, 2008 at 12:04 pm#88794

Participant

Quote (Cato @ May 05 2008,22:53)

Greetings Cato….Obsession is an interesting paralell,lets assume your analysis is correct and there is no possession.The next logical asessment would be that,this kind of mind control is self inflicted and able to be policed either by self control or mind altering drugs….What do you think ?

May 5, 2008 at 3:04 pm#88796

Cato

Participant

Hello theodorej,

Self inflicted, not in that sense, though there are those who leave themselves vulnerable. The mentally ill do not have the defenses most healthy people have. Those who use mind altering drugs (like LSD, Mescaline, etc.) open parts of their mind they can no longer shut, what comes through, God only knows. Those who want to, what psychics call channel, invite others into the home of their spirit, very dangerous as one never knows who or what comes in. It is analogous to your home, where the home is your mind, the mentally ill and the mind influencing drug users have damaged doors and windows, the psychic very large windows and the medium opens the door and invites others in.

Discipline is always advantageous, however when dealing with mental illness this is obviously something the individual would need outside help with. Success is usually improved by looking at all factors organic (physical), mental and spiritual, which is often neglected.

May 6, 2008 at 3:11 pm#88839

Participant

Quote (TimothyVI @ May 02 2008,16:28)

Quote (Jodi @ May 03 2008,10:25)

We have to realize that the authors used the language at the time. When someone acted like a loon, people did not understand such things as brain tumors, they ignorantly and superstitiously believed that the cause of the weird and often evil behavior was because of a dead person's spirit haunting them.

These are the facts I go by. We are never told that the demons are sinful angels. The behavior is a result, we know medically, as a mental illness, disease or condition. The bible tells us that Yah is responsible for the infliction of illnesses and diseases.

Hi jodi,
So that I am clear on your thinking about the bible.
Do you believe that sometimes it is the inspired word of God so can not be wrong, and other times believe that it is the uninspired ramblings of superstitious bronze age people?

Tim

Good Morning Tim,

I have been working on a post in response to you for the last couple of days. Doing a lot of reading on things like Beelzebub. I should have the post up later today.

Really quickly, I will clarify that I believe that all scripture, in it's original form of course, is inspired by YHWH.

May 7, 2008 at 7:20 pm#88911

Participant

The Old Testament tells us that Yah brings on evil to man as a form of punishment for sin. We are also told that there is no other power that creates this evil, this darkness. Only the LORD brings cursing on man. As well, I have repeatedly shown that the cause of man’s sin is always said to come from within man’s own heart.

We know that for every truth, falsehood about that truth is created by man. The Philistines, Moabites, Phoenicians, Assyrians, Babylonians were all people Yah warned the Israelites about on behalf of their false gods. The religion behind these people all had celestial demons that were believed to cause the ills of which we know Yah creates on mankind. At times in history Jews were put into captivity by those who believed in demons who caused man’s problems. Is it just a coincidence that non canonical writings by Jews about influencing sinful angels, were written upon and after these times of captivity?

It seems that some way or another, Jews became convinced that the false gods indeed had a source of legitimate power. Was it by this reason that the idea of fallen angels was produced?

Exodus 4:11 “So the Lord said to him,” Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I the Lord?”

Isaiah 45:6-7 “That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things.”

1Ki 22:23 And now, lo, Jehovah hath put a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and Jehovah hath spoken concerning thee — evil.'

2Ch 18:22 And, now, lo, Jehovah hath put a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of these thy prophets, and Jehovah hath spoken concerning thee — evil.'

Jud 9:23 and God sendeth an evil spirit between Abimelech and the masters of Shechem, and the masters of Shechem deal treacherously with Abimelech,

Psalms 78:49 He sendeth on them the fury of His anger, Wrath, and indignation, and distress — A discharge of evil messengers.

Jer 35:17 therefore thus said Jehovah, God of Hosts, God of Israel: Lo, I am bringing in unto Judah, and unto all inhabitants of Jerusalem, all the evil that I have spoken against them, because I have spoken unto them, and they have not hearkened, yea, I call to them, and they have not answered

Jer 44:2 `Thus said Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel: Ye — ye have seen all the evil that I have brought in on Jerusalem, and on all the cities of Judah, and lo, they [are] a waste this day, and there is none dwelling in them,

Scripture has firmly established where man’s evil inflictions come. Yah sends evil messengers and evil spirits to punish mankind.
Here we have in Deuteronomy the kicker of all chapters to prove my case, so please open your eyes and here what the scriptures have to say…

Deuteronomy 28:14 And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them. 15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

De 28:20 The Lord will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him.

27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind man in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

This description of Yah’s infliction on man is exactly what we see with the demon possessed people in the New Testament.
Diseases and illnesses have been inflicted by Yah as punishment to sinners, which Yah has allowed to be passed down from generation to generation, often growing worse in affliction. Yehsua however, comes and heals people who have inherited their ancestors curses.

Here we see what Yah does to Nebuchadnezzar Da 4:16 Let his mind be changed from that of a man and let him be given the mind of an animal, till seven times pass by for him.

De 32:17 – They sacrificed to demons, not to God, To gods they did not know, To new gods, new arrivals That your fathers did not fear.

Another word for false gods are demons. Demons represent the delusions of man. We are told that the false gods are not real and that they have no power. Yah sends curses to those who continue to believe in these false gods.

Jeremiah 10:5 Their idols are like scarecrows in a cucumber field, and they cannot speak; they have to be carried, for they cannot walk. Do not be afraid of them, for they cannot do evil, nor is it in them to do good. 6 There is none like you, O Lord; you are great, and your name is great in might.

10 But the Lord is the true God; he is the living God and the everlasting King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation. 11 Thus shall you say to them: The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens.

14 Everyone is stupid and without knowledge; goldsmiths are all put to shame by their idols; for their images are false, and there is no breath in them. 15 They are worthless, a work of delusion; at the time of their punishment they shall perish.

Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;

Ps 4:2 – How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame? How long will you love delusions and seek false gods? Selah

Here again we see the clarity that there is no other power that inflicts except Yah, everything else is the product of man’s delusions.

Mt 12:24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”
Beelzebub represents a false god, whom the Jews seem to believe had actual powers.

These powers the Pharisees have attributed to being from pagan gods. We know from the bible however that these gods actually don’t have any powers at all. Yah alone creates curses and darkness upon man.

So then the big question is why would the authors of the New Testament use the term, ‘possessed by a demon.’ Well first and foremost the word demon did not in and of itself mean fallen angel. The word demon stood for an unknown supernatural force that many people had many different ideas about. Knowing what we are told in the Old Testament, it should be clear as to the supernatural force that is causing such cursing. I believe the authors used the term not to reveal to us that false gods did indeed have powers and those powers came from fallen angels as some of the Jews believed, but they used it to identify the type of infliction the person had. Like I said, there were many different ideas as to the source of the infliction, but everyone knew what was meant in regards to the TYPE of infliction, which was insanity coupled with other possible physical problems such as blindness and deafness.

Mark 7:20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornicati
ons, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

24 From there He arose and went to the region of Tyre and Sidon. F33 And He entered a house and wanted no one to know it, but He could not be hidden. 25 For a woman whose young daughter had an unclean spirit heard about Him, and she came and fell at His feet. 26 The woman was a Greek, a Syro-Phoenician by birth, and she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter. 27 But Jesus said to her, “Let the children be filled first, for it is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs.” 28 And she answered and said to Him, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs under the table eat from the children's crumbs.” 29 Then He said to her, “For this saying go your way; the demon has gone out of your daughter.”

How could we believe just after what we are told by Yeshua, that this girl is being inflicted by fallen angels? Clearly we are to identify the authors choice of words ‘demon possession’ as referring to the undisputed symptoms the person had, rather then apply it to mean the well disputed ideas as to the cause of the infliction, which all have their roots in paganism.

Mt 8:16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick,

Lu 8:36 Those who had seen it told the people how the demon-possessed man had been cured.

Lu 9:42 Even while the boy was coming, the demon threw him to the ground in a convulsion. But Jesus rebuked the evil spirit, healed the boy and gave him back to his father

These people are said to be healed through the word of Yeshua. The evil spirits that Yah cast forth to sinners had been passed down through the generations and Yeshua was now removing these spirits from them.

May 7, 2008 at 7:30 pm#88912

Participant

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. 5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. 9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Ro 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Php 3:19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.

Heb 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death–that is, the devil—

James 3:13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

Evil practices are earthly, of the devil

Live according to sinful nature, mind is set on natures desires

The sinful mind is death

The devil holds the power of death

It should be clear as to what the devil and satan stands for

Galatians 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.

Mt 15:19 for out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, whoredoms, thefts, false witnessings, evil speakings:

Mr 8:33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things OF MEN.“

Mt 18:7 “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the MAN through whom they come!

Joh 16:33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

Ro 5:12 – Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned–

1 Corinthians2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

People could the bible not be anymore clear, take away your indoctrination and be wise in scripture. The spirit that is in those who are disobedient, is the spirit of man’s human nature that gives into his desires and thoughts with a self serving manner.

All these scriptures point to satan and the devil being within man, of THIS world, earthly, of our OWN nature, and not of the beings of celestial creatures and their world that does not exist. This doctrine is the creation of the delusions of man, who dishonor Yah, by taking His powers and giving them to false gods.

1Jo 2:16 – For everything in the world–the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does–comes not from the Father but from the world.

1Jo 2:17 The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

May 8, 2008 at 3:11 pm#88947

Participant

Deuteronomy 28:28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness, and confusion of mind;

Verse 45 All these curses shall come upon you, pursuing and overtaking you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God, by observing the commandments and the decrees that he commanded you. 46 They shall be among you and your descendants as a sign and a portent forever.

I do not know of a single scripture anywhere in the bible that says sinful angels or fallen angels are demons, neither do I know of a single scripture that says fallen angels have the powers of the One True God, neither do I know of a single scripture that says fallen angels inflict man.

Matthew 12:22 Then was brought to him a demoniac, blind and dumb, and he healed him, so that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.

Mark 9:25 Jesus having seen that a multitude doth run together, rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, `Spirit — dumb and deaf — I charge thee, come forth out of him, and no more thou mayest enter into him;'

Luke 4:39 and having stood over her, he rebuked the fever, and it left her, and presently, having risen, she was ministering to them.

Luke 9:42 and as he is yet coming near, the demon rent him, and tore him sore, and Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the youth, and gave him back to his father.

Lu 7:21 And in that hour he cured many from sicknesses, and plagues, and evil spirits, and to many blind he granted sight.

Matthew 9:33 and the demon having been cast out, the dumb spake, and the multitude did wonder, saying that `It was never so seen in Israel:'

When we see in the NT someone having a demon, are the authors really trying to tell us what the ignorant, superstitious, false god worshippers believed them to be, or are they just using the common word known at that time to explain the condition of the person's infliction?

May 9, 2008 at 12:12 am#88958

Participant

Quote (Jodi @ May 09 2008,03:11)

Deuteronomy 28:28 The Lord will afflict you with madness, blindness, and confusion of mind;

Matthew 12:22 Then was brought to him a demoniac, blind and dumb, and he healed him, so that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.

Luke 4:39 and having stood over her, he rebuked the fever, and it left her, and presently, having risen, she was ministering to them.

Luke 9:42 and as he is yet coming near, the demon rent him, and tore him sore, and Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the youth, and gave him back to his father.

Lu 7:21 And in that hour he cured many from sicknesses, and plagues, and evil spirits, and to many blind he granted sight.

Matthew 9:33 and the demon having been cast out, the dumb spake, and the multitude did wonder, saying that `It was never so seen in Israel:'

Greetings Jodi…..Nowithstanding your rational interlect,…After reading the scriptures you cited…It is undeniable that….beings of some sort were being removed,rebuked and cast out….If you choose to interpret these passages literally…..as a child would…

May 9, 2008 at 2:50 am#88962

Participant

Greetings to you theodorej,

Here is another thought, the Greek word for demon is daemon which represents a 'supernatural malignant spirit'. Is not Yah a supernatural malignant spirit when He is bringing forth calamity and darkness upon people? When we look at the religions that surrounded the Jews throughout ancient history, the word demon seemed to carry a basic meaning of an unseen evil spirit. So when the authors used the word demon in the New Testament it seems very likely IMO that they were using it in a general fashion with the basic meaning of an evil or unclean spirit and not so specifically as fallen angels, which aren't even mentioned in the bible.

From what we are told in the Old Testament about Yah, it makes perfect sense that the demons, those evil or unclean spirits were the cause of His forces.

May 10, 2008 at 2:17 am#89006

Participant

Hi Jodi
I do this reluctantly, responding to you, because, I don't know were you get your learning from, and I feel you have made up your mind what you believe anyway. But for what its worth.
Demons are evil spirits/devils, Satan is their leader, Paul calls him the god of this world.
2 Cor. 4:4 “In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not…”
A third of the angels followed him in his rebellion against God.
Rev. 12:3 ” And there appeared another wonder in heaven; And behold a great red dragon…”
v. 4 ” And His tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth…”
v. 9 ” And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceived the whole world: He was cast out into the earth, and his angels where cast out with him.”
That is why I, and others, refer to these angels as fallen angels, evil spirits, demons or devils.
Mat. 8:28 ” And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.”
v. 29 ” And, behold, they cried out, saying, what have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? Art thou come hither to torment us before the time? “
v. 31 ” So the devils besought him, saying, if thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into herd of swine.”
You already mentioned several other scriptures speaking of demons.
What I like to know is this, if you don't believe the bible, then were do you get your knowledge of the spirit world from? If the bible had not been written, who could have told you about Jehovah and his son Jesus?
I don't want to doubt your sincerity, but you have me wondering.
IM4Truth

May 10, 2008 at 4:45 am#89010

Participant

Mr. and Mrs.,

I must say, your comment about,” if you don't believe the bible,” really baffles me, for I have used nothing but scripture to reflect my understanding.

After all I have given, this is what you come back with, Revelations 12. Completely pathetic. Do I need to remind you that I once believed as you do, in fallen angels. Where do I get this stuff? Well I have thought long and hard about the cause of man's sin, I mean utterly consumed. While driving in may car, taking a shower, while going to sleep, before getting out of bed and during my daily chores. Never ending thoughts and contemplation about the matter. When I started getting interested in reading the bible after college, my doctrinization of Satan and Lucifer did not equal in anyway what the scriptures were telling me as I read them, especially Paul's words. I use to write up these little charts, where I'd start off by drawing the two significant trees from the Garden and then I would list facts from the bible. Satan as a fallen angel never fit. I started doing key word searches on the internet and that is when I found the literature of the Christadelphians. At about the same time I discovered crosswalk.com, and was able to do word searches within the bible. I first searched the word fallen angel, and low and behold that phrase did not exist in the bible. I then read every scripture and usually the chapter that went along with it, that mentioned God's messengers. Thanks to the Christadelphian's literature I was no longer ignorant to the word Satan, which is in my opinion one of the most horrific tragedies of the translated bible.

Mrs, and Mr. if you would like to remain in your ignorance that is your prerogative. Your the ones who have already made up your mind. And by your choice to give me Revelations 12, that just further proves to me how seriously ignorant you are of at least the controversy that exists with this subject. Do you not realize what utter deception the first translators of the bible into English did? Satan in Hebrew means adversary, instead of translating it as such they made up a NEW English word, which they didn't render as an English word at all, but a proper name for someone the church invented. I must say, they did this in quite an arrogant fashion, because when you look it all up it is so obvious since the phonetic spelling of the Hebrew word for adversary is saw-tawn.

Compact Oxford English Dictionary shows the origin of the English word Satan comes from the Hebrew word !tX, which mean adversary, but under English definition it means Lucifer and the Devil. Do you not see the utterly vile deception this is!

This is great, now I feel like we are really getting down to the nitty gritty here.

Mr. and Mrs., you believe I am wrong, that is o.k with me. But let me just say that if anyone is 'set in their ways', it is more then likely the two of you, rather then me. I am here to listen and learn and I know we are all here to share our understandings. If you want to prove me wrong you have to do much more then what you are doing. You need to go back and take each of my points and show how they are wrong. Would you please do that.

Wishing you a happy Mother's Day Irene, and Peace and Love to the both of you, Jodi

May 10, 2008 at 8:38 am#89012

Participant

Jodi! Please first of all address your comments to the right person. Even tho I helped type this up with this, it is my Husbands understanding. If you look under my post under Personal Struggles- Positive Outlook you will see what I have been doing. I want to feel positive, not negative. Making comments like that is not my cup of tea.
Have a Happy Mothersday too.
Peace and Love Mrs.

May 10, 2008 at 12:51 pm#89013

Participant

Jodi….From my understanding as well as my core belief system….I have to say my perception of the eternal or Yahweh as you choose to call him…is one of love….I would think that the mayhem you feel he reigns down on poor unsuspecting humans is a result or consequence of their own sinfull actions eg.violence begets violence,sexual sin et al…The punishment you attribute to the mean spirit of Yah is nothing more than consequences of our sinfull persona…

May 10, 2008 at 2:07 pm#89014

Participant

Jodi
You are wrong about one thing; I am not trying to prove anything to you, or any one else.
What I write, I write because it is what I have proven to myself, and my intentions are to share my understanding with others.
If you don't believe that Satan is a real spirit being, just because of a name someone has given him, that you think is wrong, than he, Satan, has succeeded in putting doubt into your mind. Would you be happier if he was called Adversary?
Quoting scripture is one thing, believing is another; even Satan quoted scripture to Jesus when he tempted him; or do you doubt it was Satan?
You did not explain how my choice of giving you Rev. 12, shows how ignorant I am, I am curious.
Your last paragraph shows you're taking a very hard stand in your believe, and yet you say you are here to learn. I don't know what has convinced you in believing what you do, but it seems to me you have made up your mind. To learn, you have to be able to look at any information with an open mind, and way it against scripture.
Happy Mother's day to you.
IM4Truth

May 10, 2008 at 5:38 pm#89017

Participant

Quote (theodorej @ May 10 2008,05:51)

Hi theodorej,

I'm not quite sure I understand your point. Why are you calling YHWH mean? Do you not understand His methods of discipline?
The mayhem that He creates that I am referring to, would be natural disasters, plaques, mental and physical diseases and illnesses. Yes sin begets more sin, wars beget more wars, but man's wickedness begets more punishment from Yah, and He, as the bible says allows the punishment of one generation to rein down on the next. Of course those next generations have their own sins as well.

May 10, 2008 at 6:49 pm#89019

Participant

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 10 2008,01:38)

Mrs.,

You posted part of your husbands book, and said that it makes perfect sense to you. So if that is the case isn't it then your understanding now as well? So what exactly is your problem with me addressing both you and your husband? I see now that you want to keep things as positive as possible, so I am sorry if me calling your understanding ignorant and your approach to debating pathetic, has brought you down spiritually.

As you can probably guess. You and your husband's approach to discussing this topic with me has irritated me. The reason for this is the same reason why I think others get frustrated with you too, and why I have been frustrated with you in the past on the preexistence forum.

When you debate with me, you don't address what I am saying, you simply address your view and your understanding. It is almost as if we are having a one way conversation and I'm the one on mute.

I read your husbands post 5 times, why? Because I truly and sincerely wanted to see where he was coming from. This is what you call having an open mind. You need to eat some of your own advice. After reading your husbands post five times, I then took pieces of what he said and showed why they did not make sense to me. This is what a person does when they are sincere in a debate, it shows that they are really listening to what the person has said because they are addressing the specifics of that persons post. Do you understand what I am saying here? Your approach however, does not follow this in the least bit. You come off as if you haven't read and thought about a single thing that I have said, because you don't address the specifics. Most of the time you choose to repeat yourself on a matter I have already addressed.

I really don't know what else to tell you. I am going to address Revelations 12, which I did prior for Colter on this thread. If you don't change your method of discussion, then I will probably just remain frustrated with you. Sorry this post had to be negative, but I feel that these things needed to be addressed.

Sincerely, Jodi

May 10, 2008 at 11:10 pm#89024