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Greetings Colter….Would you agree that OT most certainly pre dates the NT…Assuming we agree it is obvious to me that the OT is the main reason we are able to identify the Jews today….Torah has been passed from generation to generation of priestly Jews (Levites)whose sole purpose in life was just keep to the Law of God before the children of Israel….Had this responsibility been shared among the tribes than I would say you have a valid argument for a lack of pedigree….
Quote (theodorej @ April 18 2008,23:40) Greetings Colter….Would you agree that OT most certainly pre dates the NT…Assuming we agree it is obvious to me that the OT is the main reason we are able to identify the Jews today….Torah has been passed from generation to generation of priestly Jews (Levites)whose sole purpose in life was to just keep the Law of God before the children of Israel….Had this responsibility been shared among the tribes than I would say you have a valid argument for a lack of pedigree….
….Quote (Not3in1 @ April 18 2008,16:01) This has probably already been covered, if so maybe someone can point me to the page where it was answered – what about Jude where it says that Michael was arguing with Satan over Moses body? If the devil is just in our minds and not a person, how could Michael be arguing with him?
Hi Mandy,
Michael was not arguing with a person, the devil.
He was contending with a bunch of people. “filthy dreamers who speak evil of dignities.”The word devil that he used was not satan, it was diabolos, which is an adjective which means prone to slander, falsely accusing, slanderer.
He was calling them all devils.Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ April 19 2008,01:52) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 18 2008,16:01) This has probably already been covered, if so maybe someone can point me to the page where it was answered – what about Jude where it says that Michael was arguing with Satan over Moses body? If the devil is just in our minds and not a person, how could Michael be arguing with him?
Hi Mandy,
Michael was not arguing with a person, the devil.
He was contending with a bunch of people. “filthy dreamers who speak evil of dignities.”The word devil that he used was not satan, it was diabolos, which is an adjective which means prone to slander, falsely accusing, slanderer.
He was calling them all devils.Tim
Thanks, bro.Good grief. You know sometimes I think you need to know multiple languages to even begin studying the bible. Certainly children can not just pick up the book and read it for face value. I think there is something wrong with that.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 19 2008,07:01) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 19 2008,01:52) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 18 2008,16:01) This has probably already been covered, if so maybe someone can point me to the page where it was answered – what about Jude where it says that Michael was arguing with Satan over Moses body? If the devil is just in our minds and not a person, how could Michael be arguing with him?
Hi Mandy,
Michael was not arguing with a person, the devil.
He was contending with a bunch of people. “filthy dreamers who speak evil of dignities.”The word devil that he used was not satan, it was diabolos, which is an adjective which means prone to slander, falsely accusing, slanderer.
He was calling them all devils.Tim
Thanks, bro.Good grief. You know sometimes I think you need to know multiple languages to even begin studying the bible. Certainly children can not just pick up the book and read it for face value. I think there is something wrong with that.
I am not certain that I would want children reading the bible.
The first few books of the O.T. should be rated XXX.
The little children's bible books have been sanitized for little minds. You know, little David beat the big, mean, ugly,evil giant with just a slingshot. You can't help but think that David was a super hero just like superman.Tim
Quote (Colter @ April 17 2008,19:00) Quote (Jodi @ April 18 2008,08:35) Quote
I think the authors of scripture never envisioned a time when people would go to such lengths to rationalize away an obvious foundation of religious philosophy.Colter
Really, I fail to see the obvious foundation. What I see is a mass amount of indoctrination, coming from Jewish myths and pagan fantasies. The 'early church fathers' as they are called along with the translators of the bible into English failed to grasp the teachings of the Old Testament, which is crucial for understanding the New. The combination of the RCC not thinking to highly of the Jews, along with their preconceived ideas of evil gods, it's no wonder they completely screwed up the biblical truth.
If the doctrine of sinful angels tempting us is so obvious in the bible, then give me a direct verse stating such. I have already given many scriptures showing directly otherwise, that man alone is the SOURCE of his sin.
Matthew 7:21 For it is from WITHIN, from the human heart, that evil intentions come: fornication, theft, murder, 22 adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, folly. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
While we are rationalizing away false doctrine by studying the Hebrew text and seeing the mass mistakes made by the deceptive translators, and trying to interpret scripture according to ancient Hebrew perspectives and not according to those 'early church fathers', who used Greek thought, YOU are DENYING the words of Yeshua.
So why don't you try and rationalize away, Matthew 7:21!
Hi Jodi,It's odd to me that you find the early church fathers and their bias translations easy to acc pet yet the Jews were somehow incapable of the same?
The Torah itself was even in dispute for a long time. Why do you assume that the Jews had everything right from generation to generation yet the NT has all kinds of translation problems?
What about the parable of Job?
The Father delegates authority, and in that realm an unthinkable war broke out. There have never been “devil Gods” , only God-wannabe as John was shown on Patmos.
an example of the evolution of the God concept amoung the Jews:
“Never before had the apostles been so shocked as they were upon hearing this recounting of the growth of the concept of God in the Jewish minds of previous generations; they were too bewildered to ask questions. As they sat before Jesus in silence, the Master continued: “And you would have known these truths had you read the Scriptures. Have you not read in Samuel where it says: `And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, so much so that he moved David against them, saying, go number Israel and Judah'? And this was not strange because in the days of Samuel the children of Abraham really believed that Yahweh created both good and evil. But when a later writer narrated these events, subsequent to the enlargement of the Jewish concept of the nature of God, he did not dare attribute evil to Yahweh; therefore he said: `And Satan stood up against Israel and provoked David to number Israel.' Cannot you discern that such records in the Scriptures clearly show how the concept of the nature of God continued to grow from one generation to another? ” Star trek 1955
Quote If the doctrine of sinful angels tempting us is so obvious in the bible, then give me a direct verse stating such. I have already given many scriptures showing directly otherwise, that man alone is the SOURCE of his sin. *The Bible talks about engels who kept not their first estate.
* The Bible speaks of Satan as a person, like when he lead Jesus during the 40 days.
* The Bible says that Eve was tempted by a talking beast.
Colter
Good afternoon Colter,I think I need to clarify a few things. I believe that the whole bible in its original form is the inspired word of YHWH. I believe that both the New and the Old Testament have suffered from being mistranslated.
I explained the parable of Job previously-
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the LORD and said, ” From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.”
Are we absolutely sure that this scripture is talking about some celestial being having a direct conversation with Yah in heaven? I believe that any Israelite in that time would have understood it quite differently, to put it in modern terms, what we have here are some men of Yah going to church to speak to the priest and a jealous adversary of Jobs comes along to stir up trouble.
What we do know is that Sons of God can mean men and men do present themselves to the Lord. As well, we know that the word satan merely stands for an adversary and this adversary could, from the original text, be walking the land, not the earth. My point in all this is that there is no proof that the adversary here is a sinful angel.
Eph 2:3 All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else.
We are by nature children of wrath. We are 100% capable on our own of allowing evil to come from within us. Those who believe that we are influenced by sinful angels I would really like an example of what sins come out of man that are the result of a fallen angels influence.
I really want to get down to the nitty gritty on just how and in what way do sinful angels influence us. We know from experience that man influences man and our environment influences us, we know from science that our genetics also play a part in our behavior. If some of you are so sure that sinful angels influence us, then please share in what ways do you feel that they have affected your life? Please share in what ways have they directly affected mankind?
Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home–these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
The bible does not TALK about the angels who left their own estate, otherwise we would know more about what that meant, like the when, where and why. The bible makes one single statement. I am not going to take that statement and dwell on the things I don't know about it, I am going to look at the point that is being made. I am assuming Colter that you are taking it as a reference to the Book of Enoch, which I on page 28 posted on how 2 Peter 2 in conjunction with a few other scriptures is telling us that the Book of Enoch is false. So what do we have in Jude 1:6, nothing that says we are influenced by sinful angels.
Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus to him, `Go — Adversary, for it hath been written, The Lord thy God thou shalt bow to, and Him only thou shalt serve.'
Does this scripture ident
ify the adversary as a sinful fallen angel? No it does not. There are no scriptures that say directly, or in my opinion even hint at, that the word satan in the bible sometimes refers to a sinful angel.I had told kejonn on the other forum that I believed the adversary here was a work in Yeshuas mind. After reviewing the scriptures again, I am convinced now that it makes more sense for the adversary to be a man who wanted to use Yeshua for his own gain.
So the bible says that Eve was tempted by a talking beast. There is no proof that a sinful angel had anything to do with the serpent.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 18 2008,12:01) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 19 2008,01:52) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 18 2008,16:01) This has probably already been covered, if so maybe someone can point me to the page where it was answered – what about Jude where it says that Michael was arguing with Satan over Moses body? If the devil is just in our minds and not a person, how could Michael be arguing with him?
Hi Mandy,
Michael was not arguing with a person, the devil.
He was contending with a bunch of people. “filthy dreamers who speak evil of dignities.”The word devil that he used was not satan, it was diabolos, which is an adjective which means prone to slander, falsely accusing, slanderer.
He was calling them all devils.Tim
Thanks, bro.Good grief. You know sometimes I think you need to know multiple languages to even begin studying the bible. Certainly children can not just pick up the book and read it for face value. I think there is something wrong with that.
It does seem indeed Mandy that the truth is hard to find, this seems to be bothering you, as you said you think there is something wrong with the fact that we cannot just pick up the bible and read it and understand it at face value.I believe that this was Yah's intention, to make the bible a mystery, so that people would have to take a great deal of effort to try and understand it. While we are searching we desire to know more, and while we debate we long for an official approval of our beliefs. Because the truth is so hard to find, when we finally do receive confirmation of what the truth really is, we are really going to appreciate it and embrace it. The journey brings us into a closer relationship with Yah, it also, I believe, works in many to build up a better character, teaching patience and understanding between brethren.
Greetings Colter….I appreciate your genuine concern for the fragility of faith be it mine or any one elses who might be reading this post….Having said that my quest for knowledge brings me to you and any one else that might have either a convincing argument or a factual presentation…Iam very carefull when it comes to the study of theology to afford any person the title of Scholar. As you well know there are many self professed scholars….Not to exclude the authors of the Kaballa and other writings by Jewish mystics whose sole purpose was to dilute and pervert the integrity of Torah. Notwithstanding the decenting members of the priestly tribe…..I would think that the keepers of the torah have managed to preserve its integrity….
Greetings Jodi…..Your question with respect to the influence of fallen angels on the actions of men has got me thinking….Would you consider consulting a Median for the purpose of speaking to the dead a sin,while considering your answer, consider the source of the information conveyed by the median…I would think conjuring familiar spirits would be the source….What do you think?
Quote (theodorej @ April 18 2008,14:33) Greetings Jodi…..Your question with respect to the influence of fallen angels on the actions of men has got me thinking….Would you consider consulting a median for the purpose of speaking to the dead a sin,while considering your answer, consider the source of the information conveyed by the median…I would think conjuring familiar spirits would be the source….What do you think?
I would consider consulting a Median for the purpose of speaking to the dead an utter waist of time because the dead know nothing.Eccl 9:5 the dead know nothing
Eccl 9:10 whatever your hands finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are goingI did some research awhile ago and discoverd that to have a 'familiar spirit' in ancient times meant you were practicing ventriloquism, known in Greek as gastromancy. This practice, which was for the purpose of tricking people into believing that they were talking to the dead, existed long ago even during ancient Egyptian times. Which can explain to us the reference to it in scripture.
A person having a familiar spirit did not mean that they were actually communicating with the dead, nor were they being tricked by fallen angels as many Christians believe. The medians themselves were the source of deception.
That makes sense,seems logical…..How do you explain the specificity of circumstances or events that are brought forth by the median…who has no prior knowledge of the individual seeking information..
Quote (Jodi @ April 19 2008,09:11) Because the truth is so hard to find, when we finally do receive confirmation of what the truth really is, we are really going to appreciate it and embrace it.
The problem is, many have found “confirmation” that they have the “truth”. They are called Baptists, JW's, Mormons, Hindu's, Buddist, Trinitarians, Unitarians and Librarians!
Quote (Colter @ April 18 2008,18:09) Hello Jodi, Quote I really want to get down to the nitty gritty on just how and in what way do sinful angels influence us. We know from experience that man influences man and our environment influences us, we know from science that our genetics also play a part in our behavior. If some of you are so sure that sinful angels influence us, then please share in what ways do you feel that they have affected your life? Please share in what ways have they directly affected mankind? * The Bible itslef dosn't claim to be the inspired word of God….but, I do respect that you have faith that it is.
* God the Father delegates authority. In my faith the war in heaven broke out within the ranks of the celestial realm. Day Star, or Lucifer was a brilliant being of light. In his own mind he conceived of something incomprehensibly sinful, shocking, awful, well beyond a pedophilic priest!!!!!!! The next greatest thing would have been Jesus turning on the Father's will and misleading his followers. It's just inconceivable but something of a lessor disaster has occurred!
* Many beings high and low under the authority of this brilliant being of Light just could not conceive that he could be wrong. The reasoning reveled in the UB (though difficult even for the revelators to understand) is that even more beings would have been lost to Lucifer's sin had the Father or Christ Michael directly intervened. It was a war of truth vrs error. The Father allowed it to happen knowing full well that righteousness will prevail, Jesus took just such an attitude in his earth life.
* In the Chronology of events the war depicted in the Book of revelation began roughly 200,000 years ago and was settled while Christ was on earth. They were all taken into custody upon Michael's successful life on earth. There are no more devils, demons etc. “The prince of this world is defeated.”
* These beings never were able to interfere with the will of man, only the few rebel midwayers (demons) were able to cause trouble with unstable minds.
* The effect on our world began long ago, first with the defection of our own planetary leader to the devils cause.
When John was on Patmos he was shown these things but they have not survived intact in the BOR:
“7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”
The devils sin lead to the fall of our world into darkness and sin. Our environment has been effected, our genetics have been effected, diseases that could have long ago been eradicated by genetic engineering are still with us and Lucifer's declaration of false liberty have had enormous effect on our thought life in this world.
This is the result of the sinful angels and the work of their leader The Devil:
Colter
We are told within the bible that Yah has breathed written word that is to be used for our spiritual growth.Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,Colter the Revelation of the war in chapter 12, is as chapter 1 states, an event that must soon take place. Within the bible there is no evidence of a war that started 200,00 years ago, or of the dragon being a sinful angel that was once a brilliant being of light. You see this is a common sense problem for me right here with you saying that a created being was a brilliant being of light and fell from being that light. In the bible light represents righteousness and holiness. Yah's intelligent creatures grow into righteousness, they don't fall out of righteousness. If it were true that Yah's creatures could fall out of righteousness, then Yah looses ALL credibilaty, He looses His greatness, He looses our trust in that we can depend on Him and His ways for a glorious and peaceful future. How can we trust Yeshua? He came as a light into our world, should we be on guard that he too might fall?
Thank you for sharing your understanding according to the UB Colter, I respect your passion and your eagerness to share, but I am trying to get proof within the bible of the fall of sinful angels, so anything outside of the bible does not help.
I'm sorry if you have told me before, or you have stated it and I have missed it, but what is your opinion of the bible in relation to it being fact or fiction? How do you make of the contradictions between the bible and the UB? You seem to give authority to the UB, why is that so over the bible?
Isaiah 45:6-7 “That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things.”
Exodus 4:11 “So the Lord said to him,” Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I the Lord?”
Deut 30: 19,” ….I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing;”
Matthew 7:21 For it is from WITHIN, from the human heart, that evil intentions come: fornication, theft, murder, 22 adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, folly. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.“
meritThese scriptures alone tell me where man's hardships come from and where the root of his sin is.
When you say that devils lead to the fall of our world into darkness and sin, please state me how this is so according to the bible.
Quote (theodorej @ April 18 2008,15:12) That makes sense,seems logical…..How do you explain the specificity of circumstances or events that are brought forth by the median…who has no prior knowledge of the individual seeking information.. I don't know if you have researched medians before or not, I did and found that they have no credibility in their work and they actually really suck at it.
You might find this interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi_Educational_Foundation
Quote (Jodi @ April 20 2008,12:19) Quote (theodorej @ April 18 2008,15:12) That makes sense,seems logical…..How do you explain the specificity of circumstances or events that are brought forth by the median…who has no prior knowledge of the individual seeking information.. I don't know if you have researched medians before or not, I did and found that they have no credibility in their work and they actually really suck at it.
You might find this interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi_Educational_Foundation
Greetings Jodi…..Did a bit of research myself,here is what I came up with….There are charlatans and then there some who are priests and priestes….Carefull not to fooled there are those who indeed can communicate with the great liar…In closing the greatest deception is to get you to think they do not exist….be it physical or spiritual…Quote (theodorej @ April 20 2008,05:07) Quote (Jodi @ April 20 2008,12:19) Quote (theodorej @ April 18 2008,15:12) That makes sense,seems logical…..How do you explain the specificity of circumstances or events that are brought forth by the median…who has no prior knowledge of the individual seeking information.. I don't know if you have researched medians before or not, I did and found that they have no credibility in their work and they actually really suck at it.
You might find this interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi_Educational_Foundation
Greetings Jodi…..Did a bit of research myself,here is what I came up with….There are charlatans and then there some who are priests and priestes….Carefull not to fooled there are those who indeed can communicate with the great liar…In closing the greatest deception is to get you to think they do not exist….be it physical or spiritual…
You got to give me more then that. Could you supply me with a link.The greatest deception is that I don't believe in something that cannot be proven in the bible? Since I don't believe that they exist, am I more likely to be influenced by them, in your opinion? Are you trying to tell me that they deceive me by making me believe that they do not exist? Let's get this strait, they influence me to sin, but I am responsible for allowing them to do so, however they at the same time deceive me to believe that they don't? Please think about how extremely irrational this is. Basically what you are telling us is that we have no control over their influence, and thus we would then not truly be responsible for their influence. You seriously need to rethink your understanding on this matter and get back to me.
Let's just recap here, because I really want to expose the idiocy of your belief.
You have basically said that we have the free will to choose to let sinful angels influence us, however you have said that they deceive us into believing that they don't influence us. So in other words when I sin I do not know that they have influenced me to do so. How then do I choose not to let them influence me, when I am incapable of knowing when they are influencing me?
Quote (Jodi @ April 19 2008,17:19) Quote (theodorej @ April 18 2008,15:12) That makes sense,seems logical…..How do you explain the specificity of circumstances or events that are brought forth by the median…who has no prior knowledge of the individual seeking information.. I don't know if you have researched medians before or not, I did and found that they have no credibility in their work and they actually really suck at it.
You might find this interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi_Educational_Foundation
Let me say something on behalf of phsycics
I think it is possible that Yah has given certain people senses that He has for the most part suppressed in us, making some of the abilities in phsycics possibly legitimate.
I would like to conclude that when we look at the evidence of the work of medians or phsycics and reflect on biblical truths, there is nothing that shows their work has anything to do with sinful angels.
Quote (Jodi @ April 21 2008,04:59) Quote (Jodi @ April 19 2008,17:19) Quote (theodorej @ April 18 2008,15:12) That makes sense,seems logical…..How do you explain the specificity of circumstances or events that are brought forth by the median…who has no prior knowledge of the individual seeking information.. I don't know if you have researched medians before or not, I did and found that they have no credibility in their work and they actually really suck at it.
You might find this interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi_Educational_Foundation
Let me say something on behalf of phsycics
I think it is possible that Yah has given certain people senses that He has for the most part suppressed in us, making some of the abilities in phsycics possibly legitimate.
I would like to conclude that when we look at the evidence of the work of medians or phsycics and reflect on biblical truths, there is nothing that shows their work has anything to do with sinful angels.
perhaps…..Iam at a loss for a reasonable answer….so please allow me to ask a question?…Where do you think the power comes from for those physics that are legitimate.?…Is it safe to assume that they all draw their power from God or(Yahweh)Quote (theodorej @ April 20 2008,10:49) Quote (Jodi @ April 21 2008,04:59) Quote (Jodi @ April 19 2008,17:19) Quote (theodorej @ April 18 2008,15:12) That makes sense,seems logical…..How do you explain the specificity of circumstances or events that are brought forth by the median…who has no prior knowledge of the individual seeking information.. I don't know if you have researched medians before or not, I did and found that they have no credibility in their work and they actually really suck at it.
You might find this interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi_Educational_Foundation
Let me say something on behalf of phsycics
I think it is possible that Yah has given certain people senses that He has for the most part suppressed in us, making some of the abilities in phsycics possibly legitimate.
I would like to conclude that when we look at the evidence of the work of medians or phsycics and reflect on biblical truths, there is nothing that shows their work has anything to do with sinful angels.
perhaps…..Iam at a loss for a reasonable answer….so please allow me to ask a question?…Where do you think the power comes from for those physics that are legitimate.?…Is it safe to assume that they all draw their power from God or(Yahweh)
For the record I believe that all phsycics are deceptive. Whenever their work pans out to be true, I think more then likely they got lucky. No, I do not believe they draw any powers from Yah. If a phsycic has a legitimate ability I believe he or she must be using senses that we all possess but have not been able to use ourselves because Yah has suppressed them.
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