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Quote (Not3in1 @ April 16 2008,23:57) But aren't the “devil and his angels” cast into the fire? If “satan” is our minds, who is being cast into the fire?
Good Morning Lovely Lady,Revelation 12:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night — to the ages of the ages.
I am short on time and I think this link will be more effective anyway.
This link addresses fire and brimstone
http://www.godfire.net/66Brimstone.htmlThis link gives more writings from Elwin R. Roach, of which fire and brimstone is the last section of a 6 section piece.
http://www.godfire.net/Hellidx.htmlI have not had time to read through all 6 writings, so I don't know if I agree with everything Elwin R. Roach says, but his understanding and use of scripture on the lake of fire has furthered my belief of Universal Salvation.
In a nut shell, I believe that all people will be resurrected and some will be resurrected into a firm hand of Yah, where intense discipline will burn away the satan left inside them until nothing but righteousness dwells.
Quote (theodorej @ April 18 2008,01:09) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 18 2008,00:30) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 17 2008,18:57) But aren't the “devil and his angels” cast into the fire? If “satan” is our minds, who is being cast into the fire?
Hi Mandy,
This is what I think about the devil.
The devil is not an individual being as most Christians think.
The dragon, the serpent, the devil and satan were all the same thing.
They are not a person or being.
They were adversaries to God. They are the deception that stood, and stands, in the way of understanding God.
When Jesus told Peter “get behind me satan” do you think that Jesus thought that Peter was actually the being satan? No, Peter was just deceived, and being an adversary to the current goal of Jesus and God.“And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”
This is when deception and lack of understanding came upon the people of earth.
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev 20:10
So along with the beast, whatever that may be, all deception about God will be cast into the lake of fire. Nobody can any longer be deceived, all will be free to believe.
Tim
Greetings Tim….Help me to understand ,you are saying that ,there is no personage involved in the identification of satan….I find that some what conceivable simply because he is a spirit. We must not forget that the Adversary is not without power,he has the ability to manafest himself as he sees fit (eg. a human,a snake,a dragon and so on).Let us not forget that the Apolyon uses confusion so as to create opportunity and Lucifer was an angel of light and a thing of beauty….The father of Lies is a very real, and cunning entity, and we would all be wise not to dismiss him…. In closing ,one of satans greatest deceptions is to have carnal man think he does not exist….or at the very least he this is cute little guy with a pitch fork….
HI Theodore,Did Jesus think that Peter was this entity, satan?
Tim
Quote (theodorej @ April 17 2008,06:09) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 18 2008,00:30) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 17 2008,18:57) But aren't the “devil and his angels” cast into the fire? If “satan” is our minds, who is being cast into the fire?
Hi Mandy,
This is what I think about the devil.
The devil is not an individual being as most Christians think.
The dragon, the serpent, the devil and satan were all the same thing.
They are not a person or being.
They were adversaries to God. They are the deception that stood, and stands, in the way of understanding God.
When Jesus told Peter “get behind me satan” do you think that Jesus thought that Peter was actually the being satan? No, Peter was just deceived, and being an adversary to the current goal of Jesus and God.“And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”
This is when deception and lack of understanding came upon the people of earth.
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev 20:10
So along with the beast, whatever that may be, all deception about God will be cast into the lake of fire. Nobody can any longer be deceived, all will be free to believe.
Tim
Greetings Tim….Help me to understand ,you are saying that ,there is no personage involved in the identification of satan….I find that some what conceivable simply because he is a spirit. We must not forget that the Adversary is not without power,he has the ability to manafest himself as he sees fit (eg. a human,a snake,a dragon and so on).Let us not forget that the Apolyon uses confusion so as to create opportunity and Lucifer was an angel of light and a thing of beauty….The father of Lies is a very real, and cunning entity, and we would all be wise not to dismiss him…. In closing ,one of satans greatest deceptions is to have carnal man think he does not exist….or at the very least he this is cute little guy with a pitch fork….
So you think that this evil spirit Satan manifests himself into a literal dragon?I believe that one of the greatest deceptions is man's vanity and how he has to put the blame of the root of evil onto someone else.
It would be helpful if you used scripture to back up what you are saying. The fact that you are using the word Lucifer in my opinion shows how you are scripturally ignorant to this subject matter, no offense.
There are no scriptures in the bible that identifies Satan, the Devil, demons or evil spirits as being sinful angles manipulating us, unless I have missed something, would you care to show me the proof of such?
Matthew 7:21 For it is from WITHIN, from the human heart, that evil intentions come: fornication, theft, murder, 22 adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, folly. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.“
If Yeshua's word are true then how does your dragon have any power over mankind?
Tim….I don't think that Jesus thought Peter was satan….the worst case would be that perhaps Peter was exibiting some behavior that warranted Jesus' rebuke of a spirit in Peters' conversation or his actions…..Keep in mind alot of scripture is not verbatum…
Jodi….Iam not sure Man or in this case organized religion is putting the blame on satan for his own evil deeds…..The term the devil made me do it holds no water and is completely devoid of merit….Having said that,.. satan is capable of influencing the actions of men because he knows we are inherently evil….(“Who would know the heart of the man”)….in closing let us not forget that satan is the spirit of the air ways….he is a broadcaster….
Greetings Jodi….You are correct in your assertion that Iam scriptually ignorant,Iam not one to cite chapter and verse,there is no reason to because it only results in a challenge of interpretations, and defeats the purpose of scripture which is to learn and take instruction….
I fail to see your point, although Iam impressed with your ability to cite chapter and verse…
Are you saying that satan,the devil,the tempter,lucifer,Belsebub,the adversary,the apolyon and so on are just names to describe a spirit that is in man and supported by his own vanity…Indulge me…but please spare me the chapter and verse…let me know what you know to be true….Quote (Colter @ April 18 2008,04:07) If Satan was not a volitional personality, it is the Bible that has mislead believers to think that he was, not apocrypha. A search of the KJV shows the term “adversary” used 25 times and the proper name “Satan” 57 times.
Adversary is never capitalized as a proper name while Satan is always capitalized as a proper name.
Colter
Hi Colter,I think you will find that when the KJV uses satan it is always capitalized. That means nothing since the Hebrew language did not use cases. It only means that those who intertpret the scriptures wanted satan to be a person.
The times the KJV used the word adversary, it was a different word than satan or satanas and was the word adversary. In Hebrew, satan meant adversary, or could have been anyone in an adversarial position.Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ April 18 2008,00:30) So along with the beast, whatever that may be, all deception about God will be cast into the lake of fire. Nobody can any longer be deceived, all will be free to believe.
I love this! This is what I've thought but never thought of the devil as “deception” – perfect. I agree, bro. Thanks for your input.Quote (Jodi @ April 18 2008,02:13) In a nut shell, I believe that all people will be resurrected and some will be resurrected into a firm hand of Yah, where intense discipline will burn away the satan left inside them until nothing but righteousness dwells.
Oh, man, this is a good word!I've been really blessed this morning with what you and Tim have shared. I'm starting to get back to the learning…I've been caught in a bit of anger and just a host of other feelings and emotions – feeling duped by the OT and what I've been taught for so many years.
It's scary to branch out.
Quote (theodorej @ April 17 2008,09:18) Jodi….Iam not sure Man or in this case organized religion is putting the blame on satan for his own evil deeds…..The term the devil made me do it holds no water and is completely devoid of merit….Having said that,.. satan is capable of influencing the actions of men because he knows we are inherently evil….(“Who would know the heart of the man”)….in closing let us not forget that satan is the spirit of the air ways….he is a broadcaster….
Greetings theodorej,So tell me HOW exactly is your definition of satan capable of influencing men?
Yes we can call satan, the spirit of the air, because his influence is capable of reaching all distances on earth, and his influence does flow like a breeze. This does not define satan however as a sinful angle. Satan, once again means adversary, and he or it, is the general term for Yah's enemy. Satan comes in many different forms he is a man, a king, a president, a Pope, a teacher, a government, a nation, a military regime, a book, a news paper, a television show, an internet website, the list goes on and on, because a satan is anything that is not according to the ways of our righteous YHWH.
Quote (Jodi @ April 18 2008,05:54) Quote (theodorej @ April 17 2008,09:18) Jodi….Iam not sure Man or in this case organized religion is putting the blame on satan for his own evil deeds…..The term the devil made me do it holds no water and is completely devoid of merit….Having said that,.. satan is capable of influencing the actions of men because he knows we are inherently evil….(“Who would know the heart of the man”)….in closing let us not forget that satan is the spirit of the air ways….he is a broadcaster….
Greetings theodorej,So tell me HOW exactly is your definition of satan capable of influencing men?
Yes we can call satan, the spirit of the air, because his influence is capable of reaching all distances on earth, and his influence does flow like a breeze. This does not define satan however as a sinful angle. Satan, once again means adversary, and he or it, is the general term for Yah's enemy. Satan comes in many different forms he is a man, a king, a president, a Pope, a teacher, a government, a nation, a military regime, a book, a news paper, a television show, an internet website, the list goes on and on, because a satan is anything that is not according to the ways of our righteous YHWH.
Greetings Jodi….It is not my place to influence men, my assumption was we are having dialog for the purpose of sharing what we believe to be true in hopes of the enlighnment of each other if we disagree than that is when education takes hold….With reference to satan,your thesis is not without merit ,although it is very broad and permissive,by not identifing satan as the spirit creation he is affords him the opportunity to sew the seeds of confusion and with that he can accomplish things in the hearts of men…Jodi…Apparantly we agree that satan can be any thing he wants to be….not to forget his ultimate purpose is to destroy….
Quote
I think the authors of scripture never envisioned a time when people would go to such lengths to rationalize away an obvious foundation of religious philosophy.Colter
Really, I fail to see the obvious foundation. What I see is a mass amount of indoctrination, coming from Jewish myths and pagan fantasies. The 'early church fathers' as they are called along with the translators of the bible into English failed to grasp the teachings of the Old Testament, which is crucial for understanding the New. The combination of the RCC not thinking to highly of the Jews, along with their preconceived ideas of evil gods, it's no wonder they completely screwed up the biblical truth.
If the doctrine of sinful angels tempting us is so obvious in the bible, then give me a direct verse stating such. I have already given many scriptures showing directly otherwise, that man alone is the SOURCE of his sin.
Matthew 7:21 For it is from WITHIN, from the human heart, that evil intentions come: fornication, theft, murder, 22 adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, folly. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
While we are rationalizing away false doctrine by studying the Hebrew text and seeing the mass mistakes made by the deceptive translators, and trying to interpret scripture according to ancient Hebrew perspectives and not according to those 'early church fathers', who used Greek thought, YOU are DENYING the words of Yeshua.
So why don't you try and rationalize away, Matthew 7:21!
Quote (Colter @ April 18 2008,06:36) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 18 2008,04:40) Quote (Colter @ April 18 2008,04:07) If Satan was not a volitional personality, it is the Bible that has mislead believers to think that he was, not apocrypha. A search of the KJV shows the term “adversary” used 25 times and the proper name “Satan” 57 times.
Adversary is never capitalized as a proper name while Satan is always capitalized as a proper name.
Colter
Hi Colter,I think you will find that when the KJV uses satan it is always capitalized. That means nothing since the Hebrew language did not use cases. It only means that those who intertpret the scriptures wanted satan to be a person.
The times the KJV used the word adversary, it was a different word than satan or satanas and was the word adversary. In Hebrew, satan meant adversary, or could have been anyone in an adversarial position.Tim
Tim,Are you the same Tim from keyjon's site?
Colter
Yessir.
I look like a cat over there though.
Not like the handsome dude I am.
Tim
Quote (Colter @ April 18 2008,06:36) wrote:rationalize away an obvious foundation of religious philosophy.
Colter
I think that the authors of the papers that eventually became scriptures, never envisioned a time when people would think that they said what they never meant to say.Or that they would be even considered the Holy Bible for that matter.
Tim
Jodi….Mat 7:21 there is no way to rationalize this passage…..the question is how do these evil intentions get to the man….This question is not designed to place blame as for we all have a free will and we do not have to partake….
Quote (TimothyVI @ April 18 2008,08:40) Quote (Colter @ April 18 2008,06:36) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 18 2008,04:40) Quote (Colter @ April 18 2008,04:07) If Satan was not a volitional personality, it is the Bible that has mislead believers to think that he was, not apocrypha. A search of the KJV shows the term “adversary” used 25 times and the proper name “Satan” 57 times.
Adversary is never capitalized as a proper name while Satan is always capitalized as a proper name.
Colter
Hi Colter,I think you will find that when the KJV uses satan it is always capitalized. That means nothing since the Hebrew language did not use cases. It only means that those who intertpret the scriptures wanted satan to be a person.
The times the KJV used the word adversary, it was a different word than satan or satanas and was the word adversary. In Hebrew, satan meant adversary, or could have been anyone in an adversarial position.Tim
Tim,Are you the same Tim from keyjon's site?
Colter
Yessir.
I look like a cat over there though.
Not like the handsome dude I am. Tim
So CUTE, I love the cats “had a bath” hair style,YOUR adorable inside and out Tim no matter what!
Handsome Men are a luxury not a necessity,
Glory in the eyes of the recievercharity
Quote (theodorej @ April 17 2008,13:55) Jodi….Mat 7:21 there is no way to rationalize this passage…..the question is how do these evil intentions get to the man….This question is not designed to place blame as for we all have a free will and we do not have to partake….
Yes I know you cannot rationalize Matthew 7:21, I was trying to be sarcastic.Romans 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
I would not call it placing blame but understanding evil at its source. Knowing the source of our evil is crucial in being able to conquer it, wouldn't you say?
So are you saying that we have the free will to let sinful angels influence us? If this is what you believe to be true, then tell me what exactly do sinful angels influence us to do? Exactly what sort of mischief are they causing on earth?
Quote Greetings Jodi….You are correct in your assertion that Iam scriptually ignorant,Iam not one to cite chapter and verse,there is no reason to because it only results in a challenge of interpretations, and defeats the purpose of scripture which is to learn and take instruction….
I fail to see your point, although Iam impressed with your ability to cite chapter and verse…
Are you saying that satan,the devil,the tempter,lucifer,Belsebub,the adversary,the apolyon and so on are just names to describe a spirit that is in man and supported by his own vanity…Indulge me…but please spare me the chapter and verse…let me know what you know to be true…Is that not what we are doing here, challenging each others interpretations of the bible and its scripture? Your choice not to use scripture gives no merit to your interpretation. What is the point of giving a person's truth if it is not backed by anything. You admit to being ignorant to scripture and I pointed out you are ignorant about the person Lucifer who does not exist in the bible, so why should I believe your interpretation that you are admitting is ignorant. Do you take me for a fool? I rather not indulge you if you are going to continue to debate knowing full well you are ignorant of the subject matter. I am looking for scriptural evidence that says that satan is a sinful angel, or that sinful angels influence us to sin. I hope you don't expect me to take your opinion seriously if you are not going to site scripture to back your belief.
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