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Hi Jodi,
gen3
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:Quote (seek and you will find @ April 06 2008,22:25) Welcome back Jodi. Peace and Love Mrs.
Thank you Mrs.So, where can you show me when Satan fell? Personally I do not believe that any angels fell from heaven. People use Isaiah 14 and Revelation 12 to proof a fall of an angel. Don't these two conflict time wise with each other?
Jodi! Yes, Isaiah is were it states that Lucifer fell down from Heaven. Isaiah is just telling and saying what happend. That not nesscssary means it happend at that time. He is telling what happend. Rev. tells us that when Lucifer fell 1/3 of the Angels went with Him. The Bible I don't think reveals when that happend, but it had to happen before God created mankind. Like I said before this earth was created beautiful, because the Angels all shouted for joy. I don't think they shouted for joy at a vast and dark place, do you? It is just common sense to me. I think also that Mr. Armstrong did have some truth. Just like the J.W. do.
Jodi, when we were Baptized in the W.W. Church of God, Mr. League, (hope I spelled that right) layed hands on us and we received the Holy Spirit. An amzing event for me, because the very next day the Holy Spirit of God showed me things that I was not even aware that I was doing it. That is how Satan had me wrapped around his little finger. Overcoming, Overcoming, Overcoming is all I asked for the first years in the Church. Show me my faults, He did big times.
Sorry got somewhat of the subject.
Well that is the way I see it.Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (Jodi @ April 07 2008,18:42) Quote (seek and you will find @ April 06 2008,22:25) Welcome back Jodi. Peace and Love Mrs.
Thank you Mrs.So, where can you show me when Satan fell? Personally I do not believe that any angels fell from heaven. People use Isaiah 14 and Revelation 12 to proof a fall of an angel. Don't these two conflict time wise with each other?
Greetings Jodi….I believe satan was cast down to earth along with a third of the angelic host. This was a result of the very first sin of Pride ( I will be as the most high )which perpertrated an angelic war that rendered the universe ( toho/boho ) void without form or life…The recreation was the very beginning of Gods plan to reproduce himself…unfortunenately Eve elected to take of the fruit of the tree which was the knowledge of good and evil and convinced adam to do the same….I agree that the shame and embarassment caused them to want to hide and in doing so they realized they were naked….Interesting paralell as to the animal skins and what could have been the very first animal sacrafice of the OT…..My question would be who instituted the sacrafice ?? God or ManQuote (seek and you will find @ April 07 2008,00:34) Jodi! Yes, Isaiah is were it states that Lucifer fell down from Heaven. Isaiah is just telling and saying what happend. That not nesscssary means it happend at that time. He is telling what happend. Rev. tells us that when Lucifer fell 1/3 of the Angels went with Him. The Bible I don't think reveals when that happend, but it had to happen before God created mankind. Like I said before this earth was created beautiful, because the Angels all shouted for joy. I don't think they shouted for joy at a vast and dark place, do you? It is just common sense to me. I think also that Mr. Armstrong did have some truth. Just like the J.W. do.
Jodi, when we were Baptized in the W.W. Church of God, Mr. League, (hope I spelled that right) layed hands on us and we received the Holy Spirit. An amzing event for me, because the very next day the Holy Spirit of God showed me things that I was not even aware that I was doing it. That is how Satan had me wrapped around his little finger. Overcoming, Overcoming, Overcoming is all I asked for the first years in the Church. Show me my faults, He did big times.
Sorry got somewhat of the subject.
Well that is the way I see it.Peace and Love Mrs.
This is simply not correct Mrs.
Isaiah is where it states that the king of Babylon, who is likened to the worshiped planet Venus (morning star, sun of the dawn), fell from his authority and kingship. Using the word Lucifer as a proper name for a fallen angel, is NOT substantiated in the bible AT all.
There are some MAJOR problems in trying to assert that these scriptures are also talking about a fallen angel. Let’s read it and then point out some of the problems.
Isaiah 14:4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended! 5 The Lord has broken the rod of the wicked, the scepter of the rulers, 6 which in anger struck down peoples with unceasing blows, and in fury subdued nations with relentless aggression. 7 All the lands are at rest and at peace; they break into singing. 8 Even the pine trees and the cedars of Lebanon exult over you and say, “Now that you have been laid low, no woodsman comes to cut us down.” 9 The grave below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you– all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones– all those who were kings over the nations. 10 They will all respond, they will say to you, “You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us.” 11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you. 12 How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! 13 You said in your heart, “I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” 15 But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit. 16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: “Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,
First of all nowhere in this scripture do we see the term fallen angel.
Second, the person here says that he will ASCEND to heaven, he will ascend to the tops OF THE CLOUDS, and that he will raise his THRONE above the stars of God. So where in the bible are we told of an angel that has a THRONE and dwells bellow heaven that he would desire to ASCEND to heaven?
We see in verse 12 that it says “how you have fallen from heaven”. We know that the word heaven has several meanings in the bible. If we look at the surrounding text it is easy to see that the heaven here represents the clouds and stars. The person did not fall from Yah's Holy Habitation, but fell from his HIGH position.
Daniel 4:20 The tree that you saw, which grew and became strong, whose height reached to the heavens and which could be seen by all the earth, 21 whose leaves were lovely and its fruit abundant, in which was food for all, under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and in whose branches the birds of the heaven had their home– 22 it is you, O king, who have grown and become strong; for your greatness has grown and reaches to the heavens, and your dominion to the end of the earth.
As in Isaiah we see the king of Babylon likened to a star, being in heaven, we see in Daniel the king of Babylon is likened to a tree that reaches heaven. As the star fell from heaven to the earth, so did the tree fall from heaven to the ground. These are both symbolic of a MAN falling from his high position and authority.
When we rid ourselves from Christian tradition and it’s finest work of fanciful stories brought about through pagan influence, and view the scripture for what it says and use common sense, it is clear that Isaiah 14 does not contain in anyway the fall of an angel from Yah’s Holy Habitation.
Mrs. you brought up that ALL the angels shouted for joy at the creation of the world. So do you believe that 1/3 of the angels changed their minds, or that they weren't sincere?
Question to those who believe Satan fell before Yah created mankind-
Do you believe that Satan has been restricted to earth or is he able to go to and from heaven?
I think that you are absolutely correct about Isaiah Jodi.
Satan has not been restricted to earth. He met with God to discuss
the trials of Job and I don't think that God came to satan's office.Tim
Jodi! I have a New King James Bible and in it it says in Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from HEAVEN, O LUCIFER, SON OF THE MORNING.
Rev. 12:4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth., that shows that 1/3 of the stars of Heaven went with Satan.
verse 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world, he was cast out, and his angels was cast out with Him.
So when did that happen? When did Lucifer become Satan? It was long before mankind came on the scene. Before Isaiah too. My Bible speaks of demons. When Lucifer became Satan and his angels went with him, I believe that is when the angels that went with him became demons. I do not think that I am wrong with this, and when you read theodorey's post He too believes it. He just puts it somewhat differently. Just like Mrs. Armstrong did. I believe it too. You have to prove it to yourself. I can not do that for you, Jodi. No offence intended.
Peace and Love Mrs.Hi MRS,
Yes you hold to this idea, but you offer no proofs of when it happens.
Revelation is of the future, not the past.Quote (seek and you will find @ April 07 2008,11:07) Jodi! I have a New King James Bible and in it it says in Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from HEAVEN, O LUCIFER, SON OF THE MORNING.
Rev. 12:4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth., that shows that 1/3 of the stars of Heaven went with Satan.
verse 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world, he was cast out, and his angels was cast out with Him.
So when did that happen? When did Lucifer become Satan? It was long before mankind came on the scene. Before Isaiah too. My Bible speaks of demons. When Lucifer became Satan and his angels went with him, I believe that is when the angels that went with him became demons. I do not think that I am wrong with this, and when you read theodorey's post He too believes it. He just puts it somewhat differently. Just like Mrs. Armstrong did. I believe it too. You have to prove it to yourself. I can not do that for you, Jodi. No offence intended.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Stop right there Mrs. and check out these links, you have been greatly fooled with the word Lucifer-Lucifer is a Latin name for Venus. Ask yourself why is there a Latin word in the English bible from a Hebrew text?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09410a.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Lost
I hope you will continue to view my posts on fallen angels and try and keep and open mind. I have many more scriptures to discuss.
Nick! Then were did Satan originated? He was long in the world before John came on the scene. God did not create bad or Satan. Just like we have a free will, the Angels do too. Time wise Satan had to fall from heaven before the world was in order to become Satan. Was He not in Paradise and tempted Adam and Eve? You are right the Bible does not give us a time, but we have to use common sense. We do know that there is evil in this world, so if the time will come and it will that people will say there is no Satan and He never existed.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Jodi! I grand you that Isaiah is misleading, but Rev. 12:9 is not. As far as Lucifer is concerned you probably are right that the Catholic Church inserted and added it. I read some of the Article, but not all will do so later, have trouble with my eyes, I am also sick to my stomach again. Don't get old all falls apart. How are your parents? Do you ever discuss religion? Ye, I am nosey.
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 08 2008,09:10) Hi Mrs,
Not so.
He came and went from earth to heaven as he wished as Job 1-2 shows.
Nick He has excess to heaven to excuse us, day and night, but He does not live there with all the other Angels and God and Jesus. He is the God of this world. It shows that when He tested Jesus.
Peace and Love Mrs.
That is all for today, I have to go.Quote (seek and you will find @ April 07 2008,14:17) Jodi! I grand you that Isaiah is misleading, but Rev. 12:9 is not. As far as Lucifer is concerned you probably are right that the Catholic Church inserted and added it. I read some of the Article, but not all will do so later, have trouble with my eyes, I am also sick to my stomach again. Don't get old all falls apart. How are your parents? Do you ever discuss religion? Ye, I am nosey.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Sorry your not feeling well, I hope you start feeling better soon. My parents are doing well. Thanks for asking. Yes, I discuss religion with my parents. My Dad and I REALLY go at it on religion and politics. Luckily we agree most of the time, otherwise we would probably never end up getting to go to sleep. I asked my parents if they knew Ron Weinland, but the name did not sound familiar to either one of them. Don't worry I don't mind noseyness!
Thanks for looking into the articles. I am preparing something on the book of Job, which I should be able to get posted later this evening, and then after that I would like to discuss Revelation 12.
Looking forward to your feed back
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 08 2008,09:25) Hi Mrs,
The point you make is that he was thrown here before Christ.
Scripture does not agree.
Nick Prove it!
Mrs.Jodi! Looking forward to your article, I come and go when I feel bad, so you will see me coming and going.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (seek and you will find @ April 08 2008,09:02) Nick! Then were did Satan originated? He was long in the world before John came on the scene. God did not create bad or Satan. Just like we have a free will, the Angels do too. Time wise Satan had to fall from heaven before the world was in order to become Satan. Was He not in Paradise and tempted Adam and Eve? You are right the Bible does not give us a time, but we have to use common sense. We do know that there is evil in this world, so if the time will come and it will that people will say there is no Satan and He never existed. Peace and Love Mrs.
Hi Mrs:Quote Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. The origin of Satan is the serpent who tempted EVE in the Garden of Eden. The devil is a spirit. The devil the origin of evil or disobedience to God's commandments. The scripture states that by one man Adam sin or the spirit of disobedience to God entered into the world. It is that spirit of evil who is Satan or the devil.
Quote (942767 @ April 08 2008,13:19) Quote (seek and you will find @ April 08 2008,09:02) Nick! Then were did Satan originated? He was long in the world before John came on the scene. God did not create bad or Satan. Just like we have a free will, the Angels do too. Time wise Satan had to fall from heaven before the world was in order to become Satan. Was He not in Paradise and tempted Adam and Eve? You are right the Bible does not give us a time, but we have to use common sense. We do know that there is evil in this world, so if the time will come and it will that people will say there is no Satan and He never existed. Peace and Love Mrs.
Hi Mrs:Quote Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. The origin of Satan is the serpent who tempted EVE in the Garden of Eden. The devil is a spirit. The devil the origin of evil or disobedience to God's commandments. The scripture states that by one man Adam sin or the spirit of disobedience to God entered into the world. It is that spirit of evil who is Satan or the devil.
942767 If you look on page 26, I wrote the same scripture. I do understand what Satan is. Thank you for your input, tho.Peace and Love Mrs.
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