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Quote (Jodi @ Nov. 17 2007,06:25) I believe it is Great IMAGINATION of the human mind and self pride that has created the doctrine of fallen angels mating with humans. Yes ancient religions have gods mating with humans, which came about so certain individuals could claim authority and manipulate their fellow people. God’s having sex with humans was all fake, that is why Egyptian pharaoh’s had to drug their people and put on great illusion acts to get them to believe in their gods and stories. Men just don’t want to believe that evil arises from within themselves they have to created wild stories to move the blame for their own actions. We might as well blame YHWH himself, for allowing these evil angels to infect us.
If people could get passed their self pride they could see the truth is laid out right there in Genesis and is quite simple to see.
Genesis 6:1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.
-Now just before this scripture we were given the genealogy of Cain and the genealogy of Seth. Cain is a man raised under punishment and fear and at the end of his genealogy we are given yet another murdering man, Lamech. Seth we are told is born in replacement of Abel, whom let’s remember God had favor with. Genesis 4:25 Adam lay with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.” 26 Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh. At that time men began to call on the name of the Lord.
Now Deuteronomy 32:5 Tell us something very significant “They have acted corruptly toward him; to their shame they are no longer his children, but a warped and crooked generation. 6 Is this the way you repay the Lord, O foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?”
When you act corruptly you are no longer considered a child of God. We can conclude that Cain and his descendants were not seen as sons of God. We are told that at the time Seth had Enosh men began to call on the name of the Lord, and it even says later that Enoch, descendant of Seth, ‘walked with God’. Clearly then we should be able to see that in Genesis 6 the descendants of Seth were the ‘sons of God and the descendants of Cain were the daughters of men.
3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years.”
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days–and also afterward–when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
-This scripture says that the Nephilim existed BEFORE the sons of God went to the daughters of men. The Nephilim were on the earth –WHEN the sons of God went to the daughters.
Now I did mention this before, but I believe it should be noted again. God made mankind to reproduce after mankind. We are told this just a few chapters before Genesis 6, and I don’t recall reading anything in between where God made an exception to this. Now Morningstar mentioned earlier that we bear the image of the gods, so therefore we can bread with them. This is ludicrous. I bear the likeness of many of God’s creatures and I can’t mate with any of them.
Obviously if we are told that we reproduce after our own kind then the sons of God represent humans. It is really quite simple.
From what I have read, the word Nephilim in Hebrew means ‘those who have fallen’
Nu 13:33 – We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.”
This tells us that the Nephilim were giants.
God made it possible in human genetics to create humans in all different sizes. Possibly because the Nephilim were so large and they were descendents of Cain, they unrighteously dominated over others. When the descendants of Seth saw that the daughters of the Nephilim were beautiful they started to intermarry. We see bad things happen through out the bible when the righteous intermarry with the ungodly. For instance Delilah and Samson, the Moabites and the Israelites, and Solomon and his pagan wives. Even Paul warns us in II Corinthians 6:14 “Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?”
These men became heros, and why not they were the two descendant groups united.
5 The Lord saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
-Unfortunately the influence of the unrighteous prevailed over that of the righteous. Notice it is MAN’s wickedness, not fallen angel wickedness. Notice it is the THOUGHTS FROM his HEART, not influence or possession from fallen angels.
6 The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth–men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air–for I am grieved that I have made them.”
-Why if it was the fault of the fallen angels God is only sorry he made man? Why does God only want to destroy man and not the fallen angels as well?
Let’s pay close attention to what is being told here.
Genesis 8:20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. 21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood.
NEVER AGAIN BECAUSE OF MAN
Man is evil from his CHILDHOOD, if that is not telling us flat out that sin comes from within us I don’t know what is.
When my child sins or acts selfish it is not because they are being influenced by a fallen angel or being possessed by one, it is because she is ignorant and without experience and she feeds off of her flesh and its senses, which are aware of things like hunger and pain.
We, meaning mankind, are fully responsible for sin, because we alone are to blame.
What if I was to say and believe (which I don't)That all the verses about fallen angels and demons was true.
but, the verses about a “literal” messiah were made up to represent the christ “within us” and how we can overcome ourselves these evil beings.
I honestly think this “pick and choosing” concerning angelic beings is about as logical as doing the same with the rest of the bible.
First show me a verse in the bible that uses the wording 'fallen angel'
then we can talk about those verses.
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 16 2007,20:38) Quote (bmanmcfly @ Nov. 16 2007,17:01) If the view I'm taking from all of this is even partially correct, which I cannot claim to know, since it's clear that many of you have studied the bible for years, BUT, from the direction I'm thinking of things, and this could comply with the archaeological history… where homo-erectus became homo-sapien. The way I would take it would be : from dust = from the earth = from the homo-erectus that was on the earth when the 'gods' arrived… that still could fall into the 'genetic modification' theory.
The way I approached reading the bible was continuously asking the question about the passages : If this is based on some tangible reality, how would this have played out? I guess it's just trying to turn the imagery into something real… even if the story itself sounds unreal for the time period.
I mean one logical jump I could take (I would call an obscenely worst case scenario), that the bible was simply a way to track the bloodlines of the actual gods who are waiting for us to achieve their final goal, which, being 'fallen angels' is quite likely to get off the planet… and could be their original list of… well, who gets to leave with them. Trust me, I know how much of a whack job that must make me sound like, but the more I search, the more the story seems to be falling into place. Yes, this search was kickstarted from an other source, and well… I've got a hard time finding any holes in the theory presented, these ancient documents from around the world all seem to tell the same stories… it's mostly just the names that are changed.
Hi bmanmcflyI should just front up firstly with the fact that I do not believe in any kind of god.
I will resist calling you a whackjob (I wouldn't anyway) but you do have a very unconventional take on these things, for this forum at least. Apart from me you are the only person I can remember using the words Homo Erectus, for example. To a few here that alone might be enough to award you “antichrist” status.
What you seem to be trying here is a very literal kind of allegorcism, where biblical myths can be translated into analogous (but not identical) historical events.
I don't think it works for myths common to different traditions. You can say the same thing for all the virgin births and resurrections myths that many religions have.
Is there a name for this method of interpretation?
Stuart
I'm not sure if there is a term, to describe this thinking… If on the one side you have evolution, and on the other side you have creationism, I suppose the closest to what this might be called could be catastrophism… in the sense that the theory presented accepted that there was a great flood (except asked the question of where the water came from), possible nuclear war (think sodom and gomorrah), among other events, finally there was a big battle between 2 forces think Nephilim race vs Elohim race which ended when a pole shift threw the whole world out of whack… followed by the growth of 'modern' civilisations and modern history.Just remember this is not the results of MY research, I was just presented the idea, and am making an effort to look at many of the sources he mentioned so I can get a better understanding of it all. I am on my own intellectual journey with this, I didn't intend to get in any extended religious arguments, but this theory is a complete culmination of both evolution theory (which human beings seem to have been an exception), and the religious story of creation.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 17 2007,03:50) Brothers and Sisters in Christ what do you think of all of this. All I can say that we are in the end time and people like these will come out of the woodwork. What I can't get that they go onto a Christian Website. Boy, Oh, Boy what a mess. We better start praying cause time is short. Satan's wrath has began. Along with all of the worldly events there is no doubt in my mind about it.
Like you said before hang on the going is going to be rough, to say the least.Peace and Love Mrs.
Oddly enough, in all of this I do believe you, that we are coming to an end time… there is going to be another great conflict coming up, I don't know what it is, but if you look the powers that be are acting in more direct ways… Look at George W Bush… elected twice by rigging the elections, has the lowest popularity of any president and is throwing out his agenda and calling it 'Us vs them”… But then, he's as much of a puppet in that game as any of the other leaders in power.I mean really, if they stopped military spending for 1 year, we could solve all the worlds hunger problems for a generation… I also consider the implications that much of the bible, the first civilizations (egypt), and much of this history began in the middle east, and now the wars are starting in the middle east… To say that the US attacked Iraq for it's oil is only the start of the kind of agenda that I am starting to see going on.
I've heard of other authors coming out now and declaring the state of the world as the beginning of an endgame… so yes, it is starting to become apparent, but by the time it becomes obvious to everyone, it will be too late things will be set into motion. I couldn't claim to know what they are, but there is definately some sort of plan going on.
Quote (Jodi @ Nov. 17 2007,07:48) First show me a verse in the bible that uses the wording 'fallen angel' then we can talk about those verses.
I'm sorry, I exchanged the words… You actually made me grab the bible and find some the quotes that are relevant…Start with 'They come from a far country, from the end of heavan-
The LORD and Hiss weapons of indignation
To destroy the whole land
Isaiah 13:5(hope I quoted that right)
Sorry, lost the exact place, but I took note of this from somewhere in revelations
And the great dragon was 'cast down', the old serpant he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world, he was cast down to Earth and his angels were cast down with him.Since they were once among angels and the ones that called themselves gods, it's only a moderate stretch to call the god of revelations among the same group, or a rival group referred to in this passage.
Now, I'm sure you're gonna tear apart my argument, because well… I'm not quite at a level of expertise where I could make a legitimate point counter-point, because eventually I would have to take source from outside the bible to explain my case… and I'm not here to push any doctrine, at best I'm hear asking questions and explaining the frame that I took reading the bible.
Quote (bmanmcfly @ Nov. 17 2007,09:51) this theory is a complete culmination of both evolution theory (which human beings seem to have been an exception), and the religious story of creation.
Are you saying that you accept that evolution has occurred but humans have come into being by some other means?Stuart
The facts that I've accepted my whole life was that there was about +/- 2 billion years of life on earth before man walked on 2 legs, then about 200000 years to craft stone weapons, another 100 000 years before we began domesticating animals, and then we are told within 50 000 years we have gone from hunter gatherers to an explosion of writing, culture, mathematics, philosophy, history, science, making the pyrimads among the other wonders of the world, created nuclear energy, computers, we are on the first discoveries in nano technology. So, where did all this extra information come from??
I believe that there is something to the theory of evolution, but the jump from homo-erectus to homo-sapien, over-night almost the fossil evidence shows that we went from cave men to fully developped human beings with all the abilities and intelligence of modern man.
What I do feel should be considered that if you take the myths of origin from all the societies around the world, and these stories include in one form or another and perhaps different names used…
a) A reverence for the serpant, there are numerous serpant messages in the bible, in greek mythology Zeus was the only god that appeared in pictures not accompanied by a serpant, many early cave drawings show men together with snakes.
b) A great flood,
C) A lost civilisation (Eden, atlantis)
D) A war of the gods, or war of dragons or serpants
E) A messiah who was born of a virgin, died on dec 22 and 3 days later resurected, was a teacher, among other traits, among other similarites that are found in these various texts…
This type of 'coincidence' would mean that at the very least suggest that all these cultures got their stories and myths from the same source… To go over this type of circumstanse as a logical series of events, the actual length of time is vague at the best of times, so it's reasonable that much of the bible as it was written could have come from stories that were passed down for generations before enough peace existed for a chapter to get written down.
Consider the thought as well, in the beginning of the bible there are lots of reference to god(s)… (which if you were an ancient hunter-gatherer suddenly exposed to an intelligence VASTLY superior to yours, you would call them gods not doubt) further along things change and the reference becomes more along the lines of angels, giants, or other more 'precise' descriptions of these beings, which would make sense because as you would see more of the beings you would see that they were not themselves gods, but would still see them as divine beings (angels)… that they talk about these beings flying around is also curious, is this flight because they litterally had wings, or were the wings some sort of machine to help them fly?
Quote (bmanmcfly @ Nov. 17 2007,18:58) over-night almost the fossil evidence shows that we went from cave men to fully developped human beings with all the abilities and intelligence of modern man
Were Adam and Eve “cave” people?No, Adam and Eve Would have been first homo-sapiens, yes. A crossbred of Nephilim and homo-erectus, I would wager that Adam and Eve would refer to groups of men and women, depending how many of these beings there were, how large the gardens were in eden, Adam and Eve could be anything from the litteral first man and women, or maybe just the names of the first of many. I mean, assuming that my points have at least some validity but really, if this type of thing actually happened, what the people would have seen going on and would have wanted passed along was beyond their reality, so oit would make sense that if they saw these incredible things that they could not understand they would have to use euphamism and metaaphor to enable others reading it to make sense of what they had seen.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 17 2007,02:04) Quote (bmanmcfly @ Nov. 17 2007,18:58) over-night almost the fossil evidence shows that we went from cave men to fully developped human beings with all the abilities and intelligence of modern man
Were Adam and Eve “cave” people?
No they were 'garden' people
.Why don't you discuss this with your confessor or spiritual advisor ?
Quote (Hubert The Careless @ Dec. 09 2007,23:28) Why don't you discuss this with your confessor or spiritual advisor ?
Hi Hub,
Who are these people?
Are confessors or spiritual advisors between us and Christ?Quote (Hubert The Careless @ Dec. 09 2007,23:28) Why don't you discuss this with your confessor or spiritual advisor ?
Are you a Catholic? They go to confession. That is what I used to do. Now where I understand that only God can forgive our sins, We left the Catholic Church. not only for that reason alone, tho. Jesus is our Mediator and through him we can go directly to the throne of God and ask for forgiveness of our Sins.Peace and Love Mrs.
Hi,
Angels are often mistaken for men on earth and even called men.But does anyone think angels can BECOME men?
Of course MB thinks it happened with Jesus
Hi Nick,
I believe that all of us preexisted as Angels.
(Link to the thread that you started to discuss this with me)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi ED,
If you are of the light will you not bring your reasons for this belief to the light?“This then is the message which we have heard of him,
and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is
no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellow-
ship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and
do not the truth:” (1 John 1:5-6)
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