Fallen Angels

[Morningstar]

#1 False religion-you can't be serious as to think such a thing cannot come from the human mind itself, after all Eve thought the act of eating something could give her knowledge.

Response: I do think religious thought sprang from the mind of man. I just believe that it had a hard start from the fallen sons of God.

Every ancient pagan religion believes these things:

•The Serpent plays a big role in their creation stories.
•The “gods” came down and taught them how to do things. (i.e. build pyramids, ziggurats, make metals, etc….)
•The “gods” bred with humans.
•A great flood was created to destroy these offspring and wicked men.

Seriously look this up, all over the world this was believed.

#2 The art of war-Why do men fight, what do they fight over? Men fight over things like land and food because they feel it is necessary to survive. War comes about because of our situation, and our situation is we fear death, and because of death some people serve their flesh in an unrighteous way.

Response: I don’t disagree here. I just believe angels helped them perfect this.

#3 Witchcraft- Humans use trickery for all sorts of reasons, today mostly for money. Once again we have ignorance and imagination of the human mind at work

Unless, there is a side of this that is “real” and not just smoke and mirrors.

#4 they infected our race in the past with their offspring.- first of all this is fantasy and Not biblical. Second, likeness is NOT the same as being of the same kind. For instance it can be said, that we were created in the likeness of the monkey, having eyes and ears as they do.

This is VERY biblical. I would be more than happy to demonstrate the overwhelming evidence that this is what scripture is saying. Of course, I think most likely your response would be “yes it says that but what it really means is…..”

Man was made in the image of Elohim.

'elohiym strongs # H433

1) (plural)
a) rulers, judges
b) divine ones
c) angels
d) gods
2) (plural intensive – singular meaning)
a) god, goddess
b) godlike one
c) works or special possessions of God
d) the (true) God
e) God

We were made in the image of the invisible God???? Or in the image of his sons? Elohim meaning plural.

#5 basically they taught man how to be even more sinful and disobediant-and who do you suggest taught the fallen angels how to be so sinful and disobedient? Was the glory of God's Heavenly throne and their immortality to stressful for them?

They already had the knowledge of Good and Evil. We ate of the tree and got that same knowledge.

Genesis 3
22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

[Jodi]

Quote (kejonn @ Nov. 15 2007,17:02)

Jodi, Been hanging out with any Christadelphians lately? Certainly not an insult, I am close to their theology myself.

Hi kejonn,

Actually I have never met a Christadelphian, but as you can guess I stumbled onto their doctrine. I don't agree with all of their beliefs, but as you can see I certainly took in much of what they say about Satan and the Devil.

It was the spring of 2006 when I came across some of their websites and after reading much of their material I had a most uplifting experience. I think I was literally awake and studying for three days straight. After all I had many scriptures to go through and reconsider their meaning.

[Morningstar]

Quote (Jodi @ Nov. 15 2007,18:00)

Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 15 2007,16:42) Quote (Jodi @ Nov. 15 2007,16:11) Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 15 2007,15:27) If Christ was our ransom. Who was the ransom paid to? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with this question, especialy since the answer I believe is quite obvious. The payment goes to God, so that through Christ's death He can forgive us. oh so you believe the satisfaction theory of atonement created by anselm 1000 years after christ? all christians prior to this time period believed the ransom was paid to satan and prinicipalities and powers who kidnapped us. So you believe God the Father was so angry at his creation that he wanted to kill them?  So he sent his son to earth and killed him instead so he could spare us?  he needed to kill somebody to satisfy his bloodlust and sense of justice? I believe we were kidnapped by dark forces and christ gave himself up as a ransom so that we could be set free. he paid the debt to the enemy in our place. Just as Aslan died in the place of Edmund because the white witch said the laws of the land declared that he belonged to her.  Aslan died in edmunds place as a ransom paid. But praise God our Lion from the tribe of Judah raised from the dead making a spectle of all principalities and powers.  As did Aslan to the white witch. Ask yourself who does a ransom get paid to? The Father of the Child. (we are God's children) Or the Kidnapper who stole the child? of Course the Father pays a ransom to the bad guys and he did pay the ransom. For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son. To prove your position you should try using the bible. Ransoms get paid for all sorts of reasons, majority of them have NOTHING to do with kidnapping. As a matter of fact 'ransom' appears several times in the bible and NOT once does it referr to a kidnapping. We are being set free from the SINS we PERSONALLY committed. The bible is very clear on this. We are not being set free from dark force kidnappers. I would like to no where in scripture you came up with this. You said,”I believe we were kidnapped by dark forces and christ gave himself up as a ransom so that we could be set free. he paid the debt to the enemy in our place.” This makes absolutely no sense to me. Bad guys kidnap for gain, usually it is for money. What purpose did these dark forces have for kidnapping us in the first place? What debt did we owe to them? And why would they accept Jesus’ death as a payment. What gain did they get out of Jesus’ death, especially since it was a short lived one? And as well, God did not kill Jesus, He is not a murderer, He allowed him, just like all other men who were crucified, to die from his crucifixion.

All Christians believed a version of the “ransom theory of attonement for 1100 years. YES OVER A MILLENIUM.

Anselm created the “satisfaction theory”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement_(Ransom_view)

The ransom view of the atonement, sometimes called the classical view of atonement,[1] is one of several doctrines in Christian theology related to the meaning and effect of the death of Jesus Christ. The first major theory of the atonement, it originated in the early Church, particularly in the work of Origen. The theory teaches that the death of Christ was a ransom, usually said to have been paid to Satan, in satisfaction of his just claim on the souls of humanity as a result of sin. Robin Collins summarized it as follows:

Essentially, this theory claimed that Adam and Eve sold humanity over to the Devil at the time of the Fall; hence, justice required that God pay the Devil a ransom to free us from the Devil's clutches. God, however, tricked the Devil into accepting Christ's death as a ransom, for the Devil did not realize that Christ could not be held in the bonds of death. Once the Devil accepted Christ's death as a ransom, this theory concluded, justice was satisfied and God was able to free us from Satan's grip.[2]

“Redeeming” meaning, literally, “buying back,” and the ransoming of war captives from slavery was a common practice in the era. The theory was also based in part on Mark 10:45 (“For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many”) and 1 Timothy 2:5-6 (“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time”). The ransom theory was the main view of atonement through the first thousand years of Christian history, though it was never made a required belief.[2]

St. Anselm, the 11th century Archbishop of Canterbury argued against the ransom view, saying that Satan, being himself a rebel and outlaw, could never have a just claim against humans.[2] The Catholic Encyclopedia calls the idea that God must pay the Devil a ransom “certainly startling, if not revolting.”[3] Keith Ward, among others, pointed out that, under the ransom view, not only was God a debtor but a deceiver as well, since God only pretended to pay the debt. Others, such as Gustaf Aulén, have suggested that the meaning of the Ransom theory should not be taken in terms of a business transaction (who gets paid), but rather understood as a liberation of human beings from the bondage of sin and death. Anselm himself went on to explicate the satisfaction view of atonement.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_atone7.htm

The Ransom Theory — God deceitfully bribes and tricks Satan:
This was the dominant belief in the early Christian church. It has also been called the “Classic” theory of the atonement. It was accepted by church leaders for about a millennium, from the second to the twelfth century CE. There are very few theologians outside of the Eastern Orthodox churches and the Protestant Word-faith Movement who believe in it today. 1 However, one might argue that this concept may be the most accurate theory of all, because it was accepted by Christian leaders within two centuries after Yeshua's (a.k.a. Jesus Christ) and Paul's death. This happened when memories of their teachings were still relatively fresh.

The early church father Origen (185-254 CE) was a leader of the Alexandrian School in Egypt. He suggested that, as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve, Satan had acquired a formal dominion over, and ownership of, all of humanity and the rest of the world. In order to free people from the grip of Satan, God agreed to arrange the death of Yeshua, his son, as a ransom price to be paid to the devil. This would formally compensate for Adam and Eve's sin, and would release humanity from Satan's grip. Origen wrote: “The payment could not be [made] to God [be]cause God was not holding sinners in captivity f
or a ransom, so the payment had to be to the devil.” 2 Origen believed that Satan accepted the offer because he assumed that he would end up with ownership of Yeshua. The devil didn't realize that Yeshua would escape his clutches. God deceitfully pulled a “bait and switch” operation by resurrecting Yeshua a day and a half after his death on the cross. This left Satan without any reward. Yeshua had escaped Satan's grasp and was reunited with God. Origen concluded that humans can then be reconciled with God if they trust Yeshua as Lord and Savior. 3,4

The Ransom Theory was based, in part, on Mark 10:45 and 1 Timothy 2:6, where Origin interpreted the word “ransom” literally: 5

Mark 10:45: “For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
1 Timothy 2:5-6: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”

WE WERE BOUGHT WITH A PRICE!!!!

[Jodi]

Morningstar I would really like for you to give me your biblical evidence. Yes you are right that I just might say it means something else, however that does not mean I won't learn something from what you have to share.

Peace and goodnight, I've got to get to bed

[Not3in1]

Jodi – how are the girls doing?

[Morningstar]

Quote (Jodi @ Nov. 15 2007,18:24)

Morningstar I would really like for you to give me your biblical evidence. Yes you are right that I just might say it means something else, however that does not mean I won't learn something from what you have to share. Peace and goodnight, I've got to get to bed

ok i will give it a shot

gnight.

[Morningstar]

The Great Council / The Godhead / The Family in Heaven

In the beginning when God divided up the nations he appointed over each nation a divine son to be a watcher and a guardian. Each son was to be a regent (one who rules in another's place and with their authority) who would guide the people and represent the Father who is invisible and cannot be seen or heard by man. These beings were very much seen and heard by men as all ancient religions declare their direct dealings with their “gods”.

Jesus received the nation of Israel as his inheritance. With Israel the Father had the plan of redemption so his unique only begotten son was given the important task of watching over it. For Jesus is the one who created man and will be the one who saves man.

These sons are called “gods”. It is just a title that means “mighty one” and does not mean God in even remotely the same sense as that title applies to the Father. Our English language causes many problems when it comes to the titles and names of God and his sons in the Old Testament. We have turned the title of God into an official name of the Father and thus stripped that title of its original meaning. It is the difference between “mighty one” and “Almighty”; for God is the Most High obviously demonstrating that there are other Elohim that he is higher than.

The other sons of God who watched over the other nations failed miserably and did not govern properly letting man fall into absolute debauchery and rather than ruling under the Father's will they prided themselves to govern how they saw fit. The only son given a nation who loved righteousness and was faithful was Jesus, the Son who watched over Israel. God gave all authority to the one good Son, the one good Shepherd who inherited all nations.

In the Old Testament we see many references to these powers. Some examples include the King of Tyre and the Prince of Tyre. Every nation had a human king and above him an angelic King. This is why sometimes these verses appear to be talking about a man and at other times an angel. Well, it is because two beings are being spoken about. In the case of Tyre God was sending a message through Ezekiel to both the bad human king and the bad angelic King. Another, example is when David said, “My Lord said to my Lord.” Sometimes a lot of the prophecies and messianic verses in the Old Testament about Christ appear to be talking about David as well; it is because two beings are being spoken about. Jesus was the Elohim (god) over David and above both of them was the Most High (God). Remember, the Prince of Persia and the Prince of Greece mentioned in Daniel? Every nation had a divine son or “Lord” over it and above the divine son is the Father.

God (Father) > Lord (divine son) > human King

HERE WE FIND THE DIVIDING OF THE NATIONS AMONG GOD'S SONS
Deuteronomy 32:8-9
8 When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God. 9 And his people Jacob became the portion of the Lord, Israel was the line of his inheritance.
We see that the Son who bears his Father's name YHVH received as his inheritance as divine guardian and shepherd, the nation of Israel. We know him as Jesus.

HERE WE SEE WHERE THE PREVIOUS POWERS AND PRINCIPALITIES OF THE NATIONS ARE SENTENCED TO DIE
Psalm 82

Verses 1-5 God delivers his case against his disobedient sons who are not rightly ruling their allotted nations.

1 God presides over heaven's court;
he pronounces judgment on the heavenly beings:
2 “How long will you hand down unjust decisions
by favoring the wicked?
3 “Give justice to the poor and the orphan;
uphold the rights of the oppressed and the destitute.
4 Rescue the poor and helpless;
deliver them from the grasp of evil people.
5 But these oppressors know nothing;
they are so ignorant!
They wander about in darkness,
while the whole world is shaken to the core.

Verse 6 God calls the angels / sons of God / Elohim gods!

6 I say, 'You are gods;
you are all children of the Most High.

Verse 7 the sons of God are sentenced to death. Reminds me of Matthew 25:41
41″Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

7 But you will die like mere mortals
and fall like every other ruler.'”
In verse 8 the only good Son, the only good shepherd, Jesus, who loved righteousness and was raised to a higher position than his companions, is instructed to rise up and inherit all the nations.
8 Rise up, O God, and judge the earth,
for all the nations belong to you.
Comparison of John 10 and Psalm 82:

Jesus reply in Jn 10 makes far more sense if he is referring to divine beings, because he is making the claim that he himself is divine. If he was merely referring to human judges, then he is simply calling himself a man. I don't think this is what the Gospel is trying to say. On the contrary, it is making the claim that Jesus is God.

Then what purpose does it serve to say that the “gods” (presuming they are men here) would die like mere men if they were always going to die as mere men? If it was always going to be the case, then why say “like mere men”?

No, in the case of Ps 82, the gods of the divine council are condemned to die like mere men because they fail to govern the earth properly. No one expects the gods to die as mere men, so their condemnation to die as mere men is quite telling. This Psalms calls for an end to henotheism with its national deities each ruling a particular domain, and calls for a new monotheism in which a single deity governs the entire earth. Notice that the scope isn't simply national Israel, but universal. The gods of the nations — not the judges of Israel — have failed to govern the world. Therefore God must needs sack this cabinet and assume autocratic control himself.

He gives all authority to the one son (son of God / Elohim) that is righteous and hated wickedness. Jesus!

The NEPHELIM verses that support them
Genesis 6
4The Nephilim[a] were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

2 Peter 2:4

4For if God did not spare(A) angels when they sinned, but(B) cast them into hell[a] and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world, but(D) preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought(E) a flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Jude

6And(P) the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— 7just as(Q) Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and(S) pursued unnatural desire,[d] serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Notice it says “which likewise indulged in sexual immorality”

Jude (this is a quote from the book of enoch)

14It was also about these that Enoch,(AL) the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying,(AM) “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15(AN) to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have(AO) committed in such an ungodly way, and of all(AP) the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Book of Enoch 1 (here is the quote from enoch chapter 1 vs. 9)

9
And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly:
And to con
vict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

Not to mention the overwhelming number of apocrypha books that mention the nephelim.

[Morningstar]

I forgot to mention that last quote from Enoch.

The book of Enoch if you aren't aware is almost entirely about the fallen angels who left their first estate and came down to earth women.

[Jodi]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 15 2007,18:29)

Jodi – how are the girls doing?

Good Morning Sister,

The girls are doing great, thanks for asking. Molly has started sleeping more at night, sometimes over 6 hours!

I'm sorry to hear your not feeling well. I thought I had read something about you might having a brain tumor. I really hope that is not the case. My friend up in Portland had a brain tumor removed just a few years ago, she was only 26 when she had the surgery. She quickly recoverd and she actually just had a baby a month before me. My prayers are with you, and I hope you feel better ASAP!

[bmanmcfly]

Since I'm a new poster here, I'll give a bit of personal background on this… For most of my life I knew that religion was more of a means of social control than of attaining enlightenment, whatever that might be. I always assumed that the bible was a book of good things that's been interpreted mostly in the wrong ways by powerful people. (I'm talking things like crusades, etc).

Then I came across the work of Michael Tsarion, his book Atlantis, Alien visitations, and Genetic Manipulation. Where he presented a very different historical account from what we are taught in schools, this history was based on all ancient texts, and explained that when you took these stories as accounts of real events that things looked very different. I decided at that point that it was time to read the bible for myself to get a grasp of all this and to see if what he said would hold true.

He quoted from the book of Enoch repeatedly, and this site held the first copy I could find and am in the process of reading it…

As for now, take the use of the words : “Fallen angels” where did they fall from? Heavan? The heavans, as in from the sky? If it litterally means that people fell from the sky, they clearly would have had a far greater intellegence over the native people that would have passed down the tale. If they were cast down, they probly lacked what they would have needed to survive on the longterm : Offspring. Next best thing, breed with the native man. I could be mistaken, but Elohim could mean these first offspring. The Nephilim wanted them to do all the work, but since the Elohim had the knowledge of the gods they didn't want a mere life of servitude, rebelled and left the land… Sticking to the bible I think it kinda skips out this section, but if accurate would help explain something further…

but first, if you think of Adam and Eve as being 2 groups of people, perhaps split as male and female, or whatever the exact case was, that they were created (using a rib to make a woman sounds alot like cloning if you ask me) to work in the garden of eden, but were kept ignorant of the 'divine knowledge' (More in the sense of what the Gods knew that the Adams and Eves were lacking). If you think of the 'serpant' tempting eve to take a bite of the apple, change the imagery for a second, a 'son of the serpant' could easily turn into snake form over time. Now, if the tree of life was just an image to describe the divine knowledge, perhaps it wasn't the eat the forbidden apple, she 'consumed the forbidden knowledge'.

It seems like most of the rest of the bible is a tale of 'God' (Who at this point has had 2 groups of slaves that they created rebel on them, in that position I'd be pissed off too), and it's evident because by the end of genesis how many times have the gods done something to beat the crap out of the people?

[Stu]

Quote (bmanmcfly @ Nov. 16 2007,16:12)

using a rib to make a woman sounds alot like cloning if you ask me

Hi bmanmcfly

What does making men out of dirt sound like to you?!

Stuart

[bmanmcfly]

If the view I'm taking from all of this is even partially correct, which I cannot claim to know, since it's clear that many of you have studied the bible for years, BUT, from the direction I'm thinking of things, and this could comply with the archaeological history… where homo-erectus became homo-sapien.

The way I would take it would be : from dust = from the earth = from the homo-erectus that was on the earth when the 'gods' arrived… that still could fall into the 'genetic modification' theory.

The way I approached reading the bible was continuously asking the question about the passages : If this is based on some tangible reality, how would this have played out? I guess it's just trying to turn the imagery into something real… even if the story itself sounds unreal for the time period.

I mean one logical jump I could take (I would call an obscenely worst case scenario), that the bible was simply a way to track the bloodlines of the actual gods who are waiting for us to achieve their final goal, which, being 'fallen angels' is quite likely to get off the planet… and could be their original list of… well, who gets to leave with them. Trust me, I know how much of a whack job that must make me sound like, but the more I search, the more the story seems to be falling into place. Yes, this search was kickstarted from an other source, and well… I've got a hard time finding any holes in the theory presented, these ancient documents from around the world all seem to tell the same stories… it's mostly just the names that are changed.

[Stu]

Quote (bmanmcfly @ Nov. 16 2007,17:01)

If the view I'm taking from all of this is even partially correct, which I cannot claim to know, since it's clear that many of you have studied the bible for years, BUT, from the direction I'm thinking of things, and this could comply with the archaeological history… where homo-erectus became homo-sapien. The way I would take it would be : from dust = from the earth = from the homo-erectus that was on the earth when the 'gods' arrived… that still could fall into the 'genetic modification' theory.   The way I approached reading the bible was continuously asking the question about the passages : If this is based on some tangible reality, how would this have played out?  I guess it's just trying to turn the imagery into something real… even if the story itself sounds unreal for the time period.   I mean one logical jump I could take (I would call an obscenely worst case scenario), that the bible was simply a way to track the bloodlines of the actual gods who are waiting for us to achieve their final goal, which, being 'fallen angels' is quite likely to get off the planet… and could be their original list of… well, who gets to leave with them.  Trust me, I know how much of a whack job that must make me sound like, but the more I search, the more the story seems to be falling into place.  Yes, this search was kickstarted from an other source, and well… I've got a hard time finding any holes in the theory presented, these ancient documents from around the world all seem to tell the same stories… it's mostly just the names that are changed.

Hi bmanmcfly

I should just front up firstly with the fact that I do not believe in any kind of god.

I will resist calling you a whackjob (I wouldn't anyway) but you do have a very unconventional take on these things, for this forum at least. Apart from me you are the only person I can remember using the words Homo Erectus, for example. To a few here that alone might be enough to award you “antichrist” status.

What you seem to be trying here is a very literal kind of allegorcism, where biblical myths can be translated into analogous (but not identical) historical events.

I don't think it works for myths common to different traditions. You can say the same thing for all the virgin births and resurrections myths that many religions have.

Is there a name for this method of interpretation?

Stuart

[Towshab]

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 16 2007,03:38)

To a few here that alone might be enough to award you “antichrist” status.

Gee that's all this board needs, another anti-christ. Its getting crowed here.

[kenrch]

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Is there a GOD? Is Jesus the Messiah? Don't you know

[IM4Truth]

Brothers and Sisters in Christ what do you think of all of this. All I can say that we are in the end time and people like these will come out of the woodwork. What I can't get that they go onto a Christian Website. Boy, Oh, Boy what a mess. We better start praying cause time is short. Satan's wrath has began. Along with all of the worldly events there is no doubt in my mind about it.
Like you said before hang on the going is going to be rough, to say the least.

Peace and Love Mrs.

[Towshab]

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[IM4Truth]

The Topic is fallen Angels. What are they? Demons. What I will do and learn is my Business, you are not going to tell me what to do. You are just another man that does not belief in our Savior. There others out there, but they do not go on a Christian Website and Post. So far, I have read very little of your Posts and will continue to do so. But accusing us of wrong doing because we stand up for our beliefs is uncalled for. You are in the wrong place, we are not. We are Christians. What is a Christian, one that beliefs in Jesus Christ, get it? Christ-Christians.

One more thing how long do you think we have been on here. We know the rules. So do not tell us what to do, that right you do not have.

Mrs.

[Stu]

Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 17 2007,03:50)

Brothers and Sisters in Christ what do you think of all of this. All I can say that we are in the end time and people like these will come out of the woodwork. What I can't get that they go onto a Christian Website. Boy, Oh, Boy what a mess. We better start praying cause time is short. Satan's wrath has began. Along with all of the worldly events there is no doubt in my mind about it. Like you said before hang on the going is going to be rough, to say the least. Peace and Love Mrs.

Hi MrsIM4Truth

You seem convinced of the wild stories in Revelation. I think actually the world is a far safer place for people than it has ever been. Our chances of dying of bacterial infections, or malaria, or Type I diabetes or cancer (to name four) have dropped dramatically, crimes still happen as they always will but actually in most countries the rate is lower now than it has been, detection of crime and justice for the victim is more available than ever before. Sure we have developed new problems, but they are not nearly as brutal as some of the old ones. So much for satan getting his way.

The main body of people who really think that the End Times prophecies are “close” are fundamentalist christians in the US, who would like to bring on the prophecies themselves, at rapid pace. Such people should not be allowed anythere near the nuclear button, but sadly the current administration is deluded enough, for example in its ignorant and destabilising brinkmanship with Iran (Israel, and all that… you know the story).

Throughout history we have always been “close” to endtimes; every generation predicts it. We went past the first millennium “AD” and nothing happened. The biggest threats we face today are from the potential that global warming could have to dramatically change the earth, and from fundamentalists “hell-bent” on bringing on End Times / Jihad / whatever other loony hypothesis their book says. Talk about self-fulfilling!

So I think you could help to make the world a safer place by actually doing something about it, rather than fretting uselessly. How about joining those of faith and those without who denounce all this dangerous talk of the End?

Stuart

[Jodi]

I believe it is Great IMAGINATION of the human mind and self pride that has created the doctrine of fallen angels mating with humans. Yes ancient religions have gods mating with humans, which came about so certain individuals could claim authority and manipulate their fellow people. God’s having sex with humans was all fake, that is why Egyptian pharaoh’s had to drug their people and put on great illusion acts to get them to believe in their gods and stories.

Men just don’t want to believe that evil arises from within themselves they have to created wild stories to move the blame for their own actions. We might as well blame YHWH himself, for allowing these evil angels to infect us.

If people could get passed their self pride they could see the truth is laid out right there in Genesis and is quite simple to see.

Genesis 6:1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.

-Now just before this scripture we were given the genealogy of Cain and the genealogy of Seth. Cain is a man raised under punishment and fear and at the end of his genealogy we are given yet another murdering man, Lamech. Seth we are told is born in replacement of Abel, whom let’s remember God had favor with. Genesis 4:25 Adam lay with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.” 26 Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh. At that time men began to call on the name of the Lord.

Now Deuteronomy 32:5 Tell us something very significant “They have acted corruptly toward him; to their shame they are no longer his children, but a warped and crooked generation. 6 Is this the way you repay the Lord, O foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?”

When you act corruptly you are no longer considered a child of God. We can conclude that Cain and his descendants were not seen as sons of God. We are told that at the time Seth had Enosh men began to call on the name of the Lord, and it even says later that Enoch, descendant of Seth, ‘walked with God’. Clearly then we should be able to see that in Genesis 6 the descendants of Seth were the ‘sons of God and the descendants of Cain were the daughters of men.

3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days–and also afterward–when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

-This scripture says that the Nephilim existed BEFORE the sons of God went to the daughters of men. The Nephilim were on the earth –WHEN the sons of God went to the daughters.

Now I did mention this before, but I believe it should be noted again. God made mankind to reproduce after mankind. We are told this just a few chapters before Genesis 6, and I don’t recall reading anything in between where God made an exception to this. Now Morningstar mentioned earlier that we bear the image of the gods, so therefore we can bread with them. This is ludicrous. I bear the likeness of many of God’s creatures and I can’t mate with any of them.

Obviously if we are told that we reproduce after our own kind then the sons of God represent humans. It is really quite simple.

From what I have read, the word Nephilim in Hebrew means ‘those who have fallen’

Nu 13:33 – We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.”

This tells us that the Nephilim were giants.

God made it possible in human genetics to create humans in all different sizes. Possibly because the Nephilim were so large and they were descendents of Cain, they unrighteously dominated over others. When the descendants of Seth saw that the daughters of the Nephilim were beautiful they started to intermarry. We see bad things happen through out the bible when the righteous intermarry with the ungodly. For instance Delilah and Samson, the Moabites and the Israelites, and Solomon and his pagan wives. Even Paul warns us in II Corinthians 6:14 “Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?”

These men became heros, and why not they were the two descendant groups united.

5 The Lord saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

-Unfortunately the influence of the unrighteous prevailed over that of the righteous. Notice it is MAN’s wickedness, not fallen angel wickedness. Notice it is the THOUGHTS FROM his HEART, not influence or possession from fallen angels.

6 The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth–men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air–for I am grieved that I have made them.”

-Why if it was the fault of the fallen angels God is only sorry he made man? Why does God only want to destroy man and not the fallen angels as well?

Let’s pay close attention to what is being told here.

Genesis 8:20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. 21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood.

NEVER AGAIN BECAUSE OF MAN

Man is evil from his CHILDHOOD, if that is not telling us flat out that sin comes from within us I don’t know what is.

When my child sins or acts selfish it is not because they are being influenced by a fallen angel or being possessed by one, it is because she is ignorant and without experience and she feeds off of her flesh and its senses, which are aware of things like hunger and pain.

We, meaning mankind, are fully responsible for sin, because we alone are to blame.

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